Hey

I've been seeing DeMusliM doing this style for quite a while now but I can't remember where I saw him do it. But basically it's a hellion + stimmed marines psuh into tank/marine combo against Zerg.

So I was wondering if anyone knew something about it and could tell me about the weaknesses and strengths of the build?

And if anyone got replays of it as well I would greatly appreciate it.

Hiflon

Falcon-sw

United States324 Posts

March 11 2012 20:41 GMT

Both hellions and marines do pretty poorly against roaches, no? I imagine getting roaches and a couple spines would be plenty enough to hold this off.

zezamer

Finland5701 Posts

March 11 2012 21:03 GMT

Is this the marine/hellion/medivac elevator timing that was kinda popular like 4 months ago before blueflame nerf ?

Jazzman88

Canada2228 Posts

March 11 2012 21:06 GMT

Both hellions and marines do pretty poorly against roaches, no? I imagine getting roaches and a couple spines would be plenty enough to hold this off.

It's not actually that simple when watching the stream. Most Zerg nowadays don't open straight into roaches, mainly because if the first push is defended, it loses HARD to tank/marine and ends up behind to lots of typical Terran play. As a result, the stim marine + hellion push is very strong against lots of Zerg openings, because 4-8 Hellions rip apart lings while the Marines take down any spines or queens that are defending.

Try this link, go to about 35:00 for the start of the game: http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/310404988

This ends up canceling the Zerg third, and without a LOT of banelings, this is VERY hard to simply hold off.

General build:

10 Depot, 12 Rax, 13 Gas, go Factory (with no add-on), put a reactor on your rax, add two more Rax and a tech lab. Research Stim. Push with 6-8 Hellions and as many Marines as possible, deny a third and kill off lings, queens, and drones if possible.

EG.Thorzain

Sweden164 Posts

March 11 2012 21:07 GMT

No it's a +1 attack stim (maybe combat shields as well, i forgot) and a bunch of hellions timing. Not all-in in any way. I think he used it at IEM Sao Paolo for example.

Dr. Steve Brule

Wales152 Posts

March 11 2012 21:18 GMT

On March 12 2012 06:07 Thorzain wrote:
No it's a +1 attack stim (maybe combat shields as well, i forgot) and a bunch of hellions timing. Not all-in in any way. I think he used it at IEM Sao Paolo for example.

You mean Sao Paulo?

User was temp banned for this post.

Warz

Canada8 Posts

March 11 2012 21:21 GMT

The build I saw him to on his stream was :

16 gas
expand
factory
reactor on rax
(reactor stays on rax)
add 2 more rax
2 tech labs on rax
stim then combat shield.

constant scv, marine and helion production
all this only on 1 gas and he usually push when stim is done.

namste

Finland2292 Posts

March 11 2012 21:22 GMT

On March 12 2012 06:18 ExcisionExecute wrote:

Show nested quote +

You mean Sao Paulo?

Well done, you pointed out his mistake there!

iAmJeffReY

United States4262 Posts

March 11 2012 21:24 GMT

On March 12 2012 06:03 zezamer wrote:
Is this the marine/hellion/medivac elevator timing that was kinda popular like 4 months ago before blueflame nerf ?

It's a 3 rax 1 fac reactor FE with a reactor on 1 rax, and 2 tech labs for stim + cs and marines + hellions. It's a timing attack, I've seen it many times but I cannot remember his addons switches or timings.

Jehnin

Belgium7 Posts

March 11 2012 21:25 GMT

#10

He's been doing it all the time since Sao Paulo, and no caster seems to notice it. He's been doing it every TvZ I watched, and they're always like "he's doing something strange, can't understand blablabla..."

He's basically pushing with hellion + marine at +1, stim and combat shield.
Here's an idea of the build (or at least what I'm doing trying to mimic him) :
10 depot
12 rax
16 gas + first marine + orbital (yep, he builds one more SCV)
non stop SCV production
CC as soon as possible
push with the first 3 marines(and often 1 SCV, usually the scout) and stops producing 'em,
fact @ 100
reactor on rax, doesn't switch, constant marines and hellion prod
adds 2 rax and an eng bay, tech lab on both barracks
all on ONE gas : stim as soon as possible, then +1 attack, and finaly combat shield
all 3 upgrades finish at around the same time, and that's a SCARY timing.
He usually expands while pushing with everything, while at the same time adding refineries and his starport.
Standard marine - tank - medivac from there.

I've been doing this for a while now, it's a great build to enter a confortable late game vs Zerg when you don't kill 'em straight away.

blackberry_

114 Posts

March 11 2012 21:54 GMT

#11

This tank-less opening vs zerg is so strong. You have insane map control and it is so easy to deny fast 3rds.

Because you only have a few marines, 2 or 3 hellions, and an incomplete wall-off, it's relatively weak when you are just beginning to secure your natural. You should be able to see any kind of all-in coming with your hellions though. With a few bunkers you can hold off most all-ins.

iAmJeffReY

United States4262 Posts

March 11 2012 21:57 GMT

#12

On March 12 2012 06:54 blackberry_ wrote:
This tank-less style vs zerg is so strong. You have insane map control and it is so easy to deny fast 3rds.

It's not tankless... It's an opening timing push. Much like any marine hellion, marine hellion medic, marine marauder, all marine etc timing push... you don't always need 3 tank pushes in TvZ.

He swaps fac onto a tech lab and goes into tanks right after, iirc.

blackberry_

114 Posts

March 11 2012 21:58 GMT

#13

On March 12 2012 06:57 iAmJeffReY wrote:

Show nested quote +

I meant tank-less opening.

Jehnin

Belgium7 Posts

March 11 2012 21:59 GMT

#14

On March 12 2012 06:57 iAmJeffReY wrote:
He swaps fac onto a tech lab and goes into tanks right after, iirc.

Depends on what he sees with his push. If there are no banes or roaches on the map, tanks can be delayed.
In any case, your first tank pops after the 10min mark, which is quite late.
Can't stress enough how much I love this style, turned my most frustrating match-up into games I actually enjoy and learn a lot from.

Tzam

Sweden9 Posts

March 11 2012 22:08 GMT

#15

You should aim to deny the third whith your timing. Pre split your marines aswel and youll trade extremly well.

Another key point is that he puts down his third at the timing before his second, thrid and fourth gas.

Then put down you starport and a reactor on the fac, switch them and you have a nice 16 marine drop follow up. Make sure you have some map control tho so you dont get caught by a all in counter.

Start +1 armour as soon as +1 att finich, then aim to put down sec engi and armory when +1 armour is half way done for perfect +2/+2 timing.

Put down a sec fac on one of the raxes teclabs and make a reactor on the rax. Then three more rax all with reactors.

You'll have the perfect three base production. 6 rax (5reactors), 2 fac pumping tanks, and a reactor starport.

Move out at ~150 suply while putting down your fourth.

Here's two vods to study.
http://sc2casts.com/cast7687-DeMuslim-vs-Haypro-Best-of-3-MLG-Winter-Arena-Losers-Round

VanGarde

Sweden755 Posts

March 11 2012 22:24 GMT

#16

The reason the opener is so strong is that it allows for a regular timing against zergs third while at the same time being able to just cripple a zerg who played overly greedy, something almost every zerg does these days.

nOlifeTERRAN

United States153 Posts

March 11 2012 22:37 GMT

#17

I usually do this push with three mur in the mix up. for spines

teamamerica

United States958 Posts

March 11 2012 22:39 GMT

#18

I remember watching it in stream once vs Ret where Ret read the build as a 1rax cc (it was 16gas) since Demuslim had built more then 2 marines and was able to hold his fast 3rd vs the marine/hellion timing. Ret's vs T is pretty beastly though, and he's on top of his injects better then almost every Zerg I've seen, so he can make more units then most every Zerg too lol. Of course Demuslim wasn't necessarily behind after it, it's just Ret knew he had another few minutes with no tank push coming, and so could get to 3 base saturation only having to worry about 8marine drops. It was also on one of those non-ladder bigger maps though, so that might have contributed. IIRC, Ret held it with just ling surround with a few slow blings. I think the key to holding a fast 3rd is recognizing the hellions are later then normal and playing a big greedier in the earlier stages then you normally would.

I'd imagine this would be weak to a hard roach/bling allin, but it's a big gamble as with Terran on 3oc, the Zerg pretty much has to kill every SCV with the allin to come out equal. I've seen some allins with bling drops as well too - maybe that would be better as it would save the blings from hellions, at the cost of hitting a bit later.

CatNzHat

United States1599 Posts

March 11 2012 22:43 GMT

#19

This build is quite popular, for replays, look up polt vs TLO on antiga from IEM Hanover
MMA vs Zenio on cloud kingdom.

LavaLava

United States235 Posts

March 12 2012 08:06 GMT

#20

I always love me some Marine-Hellion into Marine-Hellion-Medivac.

Marine Hellion walks all over lings and early Marine Medivac really isn't bad against roaches, especially with constant lift and drop around cliffs, you don't lose very much. I'll often open gas first (not on 2 player maps!) and go reactor barracks with naked factory, and decide how early I want medivacs based on what he's doing...

Additionally, the zerg will often scout the reactor and factory and assume reactor hellion expand, and either settle on 2 queens and a spine for defense, or run some roaches headlong into your base.... either way he'll have to deal with an unexpected volume of marines. After some Marine Hellion aggression you can drop and elevator with impunity because he won't have much AA... Just a very fun composition, and it works because tanks aren't really that necessary early on, not to mention their lack of mobility.

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