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dohgg
310 Posts
It took them some time, but zerg players realized finally that terran have stoped the rush for tanks era, and now rushing for quick upgrades and meds, which are very weak vs zerg aggresion early game, aka zerg 2 base busts. Not saying that terran are greedy by doing it, but they defentley required to have good scouting for preparing a defensive position and also require a good split micro vs banes+X busts.. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 13 2012 04:33 dohgg wrote: Well in my opnion roaches opening for zerg nowdays became quite popluar at the current metagame, not only for offensive, but also for defending. It took them some time, but zerg players realized finally that terran have stoped the rush for tanks era, and now rushing for quick upgrades and meds, which are very weak vs zerg aggresion early game, aka zerg 2 base busts. Not saying that terran are greedy by doing it, but they defentley required to have good scouting for preparing a defensive position and also require a good split micro vs banes+X busts.. Even still, marine hellion with +1 and stim and CS can deal with roaches. It's the banes, or pure roach en masse that could cause an issue. | ||
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Hoodlum
United States350 Posts
On March 13 2012 04:58 iAmJeffReY wrote: Even still, marine hellion with +1 and stim and CS can deal with roaches. It's the banes, or pure roach en masse that could cause an issue. Exactly this push works very will in a lot of situations but it's very weak vs the newly popular roach bane ling all in... It can hold bane bust just fine with scouting but this build is extremely dependent on DeMuslim level splitting lol! I've seen him crush pure roach ling and pure ling baneling but its the roach ling baneling that gets him... | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
However, roaches with a cover of 1 or 2 spines behind them are more then ok to stop this. I really prefer, and think that a solid opening vs zergs nowdays must involve medivacs, neglecting and dodging the spines and getting abit of a suprise edge on the zerg. but the real power of medivac, is that you easily have the abilty to lift everything and run away from a losing battle, while you forced the zerg to create an army he prefered not to at that certain moment. | ||
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
Against standard muta/ling though it's great, as it hits a good bit before mutas are out (around 8.30/9mins iirc?), but while they've still invested into banking for them. It's a bit quicker than a 10minute tank push, so it can catch a lot of Zergs offguard if they aren't scouting thoroughly. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 13 2012 06:30 CluEleSs_UK wrote: It's a pretty nice build. Some other guys have posted up the BO, so I won't reiterate that, but the late gas is interesting, because from a Zerg POV, it looks a lot like a 3 Orbital build with a delayed factory. It can lose to some really fast bling/roach busts however, as your hellions are out a little too late to spot any hardcore timings. Equally, if zerg thinks it's a 3 orbital build, their response is very often a roach/bling allin. Against standard muta/ling though it's great, as it hits a good bit before mutas are out (around 8.30/9mins iirc?), but while they've still invested into banking for them. It's a bit quicker than a 10minute tank push, so it can catch a lot of Zergs offguard if they aren't scouting thoroughly. That's insanely fast mutas, and that's like... 2 queen 2 base almost no unit mutas. You'd roll that fast of mutas with this push. +1, stim, CS and it's just a matter of getting +2 and +1 armor, while taking a third and denying the mutas. Here's an example. My first time trying this build, just kind of from memory. Works like a charm IMO. http://drop.sc/130748 | ||
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
As mentioned earlier I think that some kind of roach/bling would be the most effective way to counter this. It will however delay other tech for the Z so.. not entirely sure how it all will work out... however, it is baws opener/timing push nevertheless. Cheers Dan | ||
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MetalGear
Australia47 Posts
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Picklebread
808 Posts
On March 12 2012 05:41 Falcon-sw wrote: Both hellions and marines do pretty poorly against roaches, no? I imagine getting roaches and a couple spines would be plenty enough to hold this off. How late is your third going to be if in midgame you dont get third and instead get a bunch of roaches and some spine? youd be massively behind. The push does fine against roaches anyway its just if you get mass roaches what shuts this push down is getting lings/banes or getting mass roaches. | ||
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Gator
United States3432 Posts
very very good build | ||
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote: Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do? Just don't attack with the first 3 marines imo. Im not entirely sure but I believe he did have something in his base to defend. Also, if the Z attempts to counterattack he will probably want to get additional units, meaning less drones... which is really bad for him if he fails the attack. So I think most Z just wont take the risk and just go safe, as in drone up instead of trying to attack. I personally dislike sending marines like that unless Im threatening with a bunker being constructed. On March 14 2012 08:31 MetalGear wrote: If zerg is investing heavy in roaches and blings which some people say can easily hold this push wouldn't it be better just to not engage? Zerg's 3rd will be late they will be behind in upgrades and tech and you can take your'e 3rd and get medivacs and start dropping since they wen't heavy roaches and will be slow to respond to drops and you should be way in front. Yes, it might be better to just not engage. Maybe come back when you get the medivacs out.  Cheers Dan | ||
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yoona2012
Denmark196 Posts
On March 12 2012 05:40 Hiflon wrote: I've been seeing DeMusliM doing this style for quite a while now but I can't remember where I saw him do it. But basically it's a hellion + stimmed marines psuh into tank/marine combo against Zerg. So I was wondering if anyone knew something about it and could tell me about the weaknesses and strengths of the build? It´s basically the marauder hellion push, just with marines instead of marauders. The strenght is that it transitions much better into marine tank medivac and is alot safer against fast muta play. The weakness is that it´s alot more micro intensive - less forgiving with bad micro and it doesn´t kill spines or queens as fast is hellion marauder. 2 spines, 2 queens and a handful of speedlings shuts down this push assuming you´ve been able to spread your creep at least down to the bottom of your naturals ramp, so your speedlings can get a surround once the marines poke up and transfuse and queens take care of any remaining hellions. Alternatively you could do 4 queens 3 spines with practically no lings if you´ve simcitied your natural ramp with evo chamber or 3 spines 2 queens and a handful of speedlings if you want to be extremely safe. This is assuming its the standard about 6 hellions with 10 marines, some cases you´ll encounter a delayed version with alot more stuff, and obviously you´ll need more defence. Banelings can be useful, but only if you get to land them and spread your creep well since baneling speed wont be done and offcreep they are free units for hellions. I wouldn´t recommend roaches at all unless he makes more than 8 hellions. This is mainly because he invested in stim, and that´s a clear indication that he isn´t planning on playing pure mech. If you go roaches, then it should either be a minimal amount (4 seems reasonable) or if you sense a weakness and can simply do 2 base all in roach and finish him off. | ||
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jabberjaw
225 Posts
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jonaa
Netherlands151 Posts
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Spieltor
327 Posts
i hope all you people who say "it punishes greedy zerg" understand that zerg has learned to be "greedy" to win. Zerg is the macro race, as artosis says, "you cant beat terrans or protoss at micro because they have range, you have to beat them at macro". this is true. Zerg army costs more to field, even if the overall resource cost count at any snapshot in the game is less. because zerg needs to use up units killing T or P, then remake, so give them roughly 1.5x the resource cost of their army the next time you see a zerg playing to beat an attack and you have a more accurate picture. For instance, Zerg needs to have a higher supply count out in midgame, and vs P needs to have corruptors out before coloss gets too big in numbers, corruptors actually cost more than vikings and you need about 8-12 of them as they do less damage to coloss than vikings as well. Its very simple to understand that for zerg to be winning engagements, it needs to field an army that is either bigger or costs more for specific ANTI-roles in order to continue winning until brood lords come out. That is why zergs play "greedy". Its a necessity to winning. Haven't you all looked at why stephano and other zergs win? it's not because of superior micro, and its not because zerg has gotten buffs to ANY of its main attack units. its because steph and other winning zergs have learned to BE GREEDY and turn that into faster upgrades, more units, etc. Doesn't that alone say something about what zerg requires to win vs T and P? | ||
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ROOTIllusion
United States1060 Posts
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
On March 14 2012 15:17 dotDash wrote: Just don't attack with the first 3 marines imo. Im not entirely sure but I believe he did have something in his base to defend. Also, if the Z attempts to counterattack he will probably want to get additional units, meaning less drones... which is really bad for him if he fails the attack. So I think most Z just wont take the risk and just go safe, as in drone up instead of trying to attack. I personally dislike sending marines like that unless Im threatening with a bunker being constructed. Cheers Dan Even if I don't attack with the first three marines, I am still very susceptible to over produced lings, even if I get a bunker. My practice partner figured this out very quickly >.> And I watched the replay, Demuslim doesn't get any additional stuff, so what should I do? | ||
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
On March 15 2012 03:29 -Aura- wrote: Even if I don't attack with the first three marines, I am still very susceptible to over produced lings, even if I get a bunker. My practice partner figured this out very quickly >.> And I watched the replay, Demuslim doesn't get any additional stuff, so what should I do? Im not 100% familiar with the build yet so I dont know all the details, just so you know. Now to your problem.. how about walling off somehow? You should, in theory, be able to hold off endless amounts of lings with a wall off, repairing scvs and just a couple of rines... and the amount of money you spend on repairing should be much less than the investment he did to produce all the lings. Survive, get yourself a nice timing push and hit him hard. Cheers Dan | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote: Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do? Uh, you have units... the reactor finishes in time, and you have 3 rax, 1 reactor, and make 4 marines at a time. Finish CC low ground, and lift in necessary. I personally dislike sending marines like that unless Im threatening with a bunker being constructed. It's a timing thing. It does damage, no need to bunker. It forces lings out, and you can just pick OLs, or queens, or drones and just be generally gay to them. I've ran this build now like 11 times, I'm 9-2, and have come up with a slew of transitions. The marine poke always is so fun, unless bad zerg makes blind 6-8 lings for no reason. This is a build meant for better zergs, IMO. This is assuming its the standard about 6 hellions with 10 marines, some cases you´ll encounter a delayed version with alot more stuff, and obviously you´ll need more defence. Banelings can be useful, but only if you get to land them and spread your creep well since baneling speed wont be done and offcreep they are free units for hellions. I wouldn´t recommend roaches at all unless he makes more than 8 hellions. This is mainly because he invested in stim, and that´s a clear indication that he isn´t planning on playing pure mech. If you go roaches, then it should either be a minimal amount (4 seems reasonable) or if you sense a weakness and can simply do 2 base all in roach and finish him off. ...? what? I usually hit with 4-5 hellions, and about 20-25 marines...You do know that if they don't just roach bane you, roaches late aren't really too smart. I've met zergs who try to roach ling me after the poke, and we meet in the midfield when stim is done, and CS and +1...and with basic micro I rolled the zerg. | ||
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