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Hiflon
Denmark22 Posts
I've been seeing DeMusliM doing this style for quite a while now but I can't remember where I saw him do it. But basically it's a hellion + stimmed marines psuh into tank/marine combo against Zerg. So I was wondering if anyone knew something about it and could tell me about the weaknesses and strengths of the build? And if anyone got replays of it as well I would greatly appreciate it. Hiflon | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
Both hellions and marines do pretty poorly against roaches, no? I imagine getting roaches and a couple spines would be plenty enough to hold this off. It's not actually that simple when watching the stream. Most Zerg nowadays don't open straight into roaches, mainly because if the first push is defended, it loses HARD to tank/marine and ends up behind to lots of typical Terran play. As a result, the stim marine + hellion push is very strong against lots of Zerg openings, because 4-8 Hellions rip apart lings while the Marines take down any spines or queens that are defending. Try this link, go to about 35:00 for the start of the game: http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/310404988 This ends up canceling the Zerg third, and without a LOT of banelings, this is VERY hard to simply hold off. General build: 10 Depot, 12 Rax, 13 Gas, go Factory (with no add-on), put a reactor on your rax, add two more Rax and a tech lab. Research Stim. Push with 6-8 Hellions and as many Marines as possible, deny a third and kill off lings, queens, and drones if possible. | ||
EG.Thorzain
Sweden164 Posts
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Dr. Steve Brule
Wales152 Posts
On March 12 2012 06:07 Thorzain wrote: No it's a +1 attack stim (maybe combat shields as well, i forgot) and a bunch of hellions timing. Not all-in in any way. I think he used it at IEM Sao Paolo for example. You mean Sao Paulo? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Warz
Canada8 Posts
16 gas expand factory reactor on rax (reactor stays on rax) add 2 more rax 2 tech labs on rax stim then combat shield. constant scv, marine and helion production all this only on 1 gas and he usually push when stim is done. | ||
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namste
Finland2292 Posts
Well done, you pointed out his mistake there! | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 12 2012 06:03 zezamer wrote: Is this the marine/hellion/medivac elevator timing that was kinda popular like 4 months ago before blueflame nerf ? It's a 3 rax 1 fac reactor FE with a reactor on 1 rax, and 2 tech labs for stim + cs and marines + hellions. It's a timing attack, I've seen it many times but I cannot remember his addons switches or timings. | ||
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Jehnin
Belgium7 Posts
He's basically pushing with hellion + marine at +1, stim and combat shield. Here's an idea of the build (or at least what I'm doing trying to mimic him) : 10 depot 12 rax 16 gas + first marine + orbital (yep, he builds one more SCV) non stop SCV production CC as soon as possible push with the first 3 marines(and often 1 SCV, usually the scout) and stops producing 'em, fact @ 100 reactor on rax, doesn't switch, constant marines and hellion prod adds 2 rax and an eng bay, tech lab on both barracks all on ONE gas : stim as soon as possible, then +1 attack, and finaly combat shield all 3 upgrades finish at around the same time, and that's a SCARY timing. He usually expands while pushing with everything, while at the same time adding refineries and his starport. Standard marine - tank - medivac from there. I've been doing this for a while now, it's a great build to enter a confortable late game vs Zerg when you don't kill 'em straight away. | ||
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blackberry_
114 Posts
Because you only have a few marines, 2 or 3 hellions, and an incomplete wall-off, it's relatively weak when you are just beginning to secure your natural. You should be able to see any kind of all-in coming with your hellions though. With a few bunkers you can hold off most all-ins. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 12 2012 06:54 blackberry_ wrote: This tank-less style vs zerg is so strong. You have insane map control and it is so easy to deny fast 3rds. It's not tankless... It's an opening timing push. Much like any marine hellion, marine hellion medic, marine marauder, all marine etc timing push... you don't always need 3 tank pushes in TvZ. He swaps fac onto a tech lab and goes into tanks right after, iirc. | ||
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blackberry_
114 Posts
On March 12 2012 06:57 iAmJeffReY wrote: It's not tankless... It's an opening timing push. Much like any marine hellion, marine hellion medic, marine marauder, all marine etc timing push... you don't always need 3 tank pushes in TvZ. He swaps fac onto a tech lab and goes into tanks right after, iirc. I meant tank-less opening. | ||
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Jehnin
Belgium7 Posts
On March 12 2012 06:57 iAmJeffReY wrote: He swaps fac onto a tech lab and goes into tanks right after, iirc. Depends on what he sees with his push. If there are no banes or roaches on the map, tanks can be delayed. In any case, your first tank pops after the 10min mark, which is quite late. Can't stress enough how much I love this style, turned my most frustrating match-up into games I actually enjoy and learn a lot from. | ||
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Tzam
Sweden9 Posts
Another key point is that he puts down his third at the timing before his second, thrid and fourth gas. Then put down you starport and a reactor on the fac, switch them and you have a nice 16 marine drop follow up. Make sure you have some map control tho so you dont get caught by a all in counter. Start +1 armour as soon as +1 att finich, then aim to put down sec engi and armory when +1 armour is half way done for perfect +2/+2 timing. Put down a sec fac on one of the raxes teclabs and make a reactor on the rax. Then three more rax all with reactors. You'll have the perfect three base production. 6 rax (5reactors), 2 fac pumping tanks, and a reactor starport. Move out at ~150 suply while putting down your fourth. Here's two vods to study. http://sc2casts.com/cast7687-DeMuslim-vs-Haypro-Best-of-3-MLG-Winter-Arena-Losers-Round | ||
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VanGarde
Sweden755 Posts
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nOlifeTERRAN
United States153 Posts
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
I'd imagine this would be weak to a hard roach/bling allin, but it's a big gamble as with Terran on 3oc, the Zerg pretty much has to kill every SCV with the allin to come out equal. I've seen some allins with bling drops as well too - maybe that would be better as it would save the blings from hellions, at the cost of hitting a bit later. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
MMA vs Zenio on cloud kingdom. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
Marine Hellion walks all over lings and early Marine Medivac really isn't bad against roaches, especially with constant lift and drop around cliffs, you don't lose very much. I'll often open gas first (not on 2 player maps!) and go reactor barracks with naked factory, and decide how early I want medivacs based on what he's doing... Additionally, the zerg will often scout the reactor and factory and assume reactor hellion expand, and either settle on 2 queens and a spine for defense, or run some roaches headlong into your base.... either way he'll have to deal with an unexpected volume of marines. After some Marine Hellion aggression you can drop and elevator with impunity because he won't have much AA... Just a very fun composition, and it works because tanks aren't really that necessary early on, not to mention their lack of mobility. | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
It took them some time, but zerg players realized finally that terran have stoped the rush for tanks era, and now rushing for quick upgrades and meds, which are very weak vs zerg aggresion early game, aka zerg 2 base busts. Not saying that terran are greedy by doing it, but they defentley required to have good scouting for preparing a defensive position and also require a good split micro vs banes+X busts.. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 13 2012 04:33 dohgg wrote: Well in my opnion roaches opening for zerg nowdays became quite popluar at the current metagame, not only for offensive, but also for defending. It took them some time, but zerg players realized finally that terran have stoped the rush for tanks era, and now rushing for quick upgrades and meds, which are very weak vs zerg aggresion early game, aka zerg 2 base busts. Not saying that terran are greedy by doing it, but they defentley required to have good scouting for preparing a defensive position and also require a good split micro vs banes+X busts.. Even still, marine hellion with +1 and stim and CS can deal with roaches. It's the banes, or pure roach en masse that could cause an issue. | ||
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Hoodlum
United States350 Posts
On March 13 2012 04:58 iAmJeffReY wrote: Even still, marine hellion with +1 and stim and CS can deal with roaches. It's the banes, or pure roach en masse that could cause an issue. Exactly this push works very will in a lot of situations but it's very weak vs the newly popular roach bane ling all in... It can hold bane bust just fine with scouting but this build is extremely dependent on DeMuslim level splitting lol! I've seen him crush pure roach ling and pure ling baneling but its the roach ling baneling that gets him... | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
However, roaches with a cover of 1 or 2 spines behind them are more then ok to stop this. I really prefer, and think that a solid opening vs zergs nowdays must involve medivacs, neglecting and dodging the spines and getting abit of a suprise edge on the zerg. but the real power of medivac, is that you easily have the abilty to lift everything and run away from a losing battle, while you forced the zerg to create an army he prefered not to at that certain moment. | ||
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
Against standard muta/ling though it's great, as it hits a good bit before mutas are out (around 8.30/9mins iirc?), but while they've still invested into banking for them. It's a bit quicker than a 10minute tank push, so it can catch a lot of Zergs offguard if they aren't scouting thoroughly. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 13 2012 06:30 CluEleSs_UK wrote: It's a pretty nice build. Some other guys have posted up the BO, so I won't reiterate that, but the late gas is interesting, because from a Zerg POV, it looks a lot like a 3 Orbital build with a delayed factory. It can lose to some really fast bling/roach busts however, as your hellions are out a little too late to spot any hardcore timings. Equally, if zerg thinks it's a 3 orbital build, their response is very often a roach/bling allin. Against standard muta/ling though it's great, as it hits a good bit before mutas are out (around 8.30/9mins iirc?), but while they've still invested into banking for them. It's a bit quicker than a 10minute tank push, so it can catch a lot of Zergs offguard if they aren't scouting thoroughly. That's insanely fast mutas, and that's like... 2 queen 2 base almost no unit mutas. You'd roll that fast of mutas with this push. +1, stim, CS and it's just a matter of getting +2 and +1 armor, while taking a third and denying the mutas. Here's an example. My first time trying this build, just kind of from memory. Works like a charm IMO. http://drop.sc/130748 | ||
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
As mentioned earlier I think that some kind of roach/bling would be the most effective way to counter this. It will however delay other tech for the Z so.. not entirely sure how it all will work out... however, it is baws opener/timing push nevertheless. Cheers Dan | ||
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MetalGear
Australia47 Posts
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Picklebread
808 Posts
On March 12 2012 05:41 Falcon-sw wrote: Both hellions and marines do pretty poorly against roaches, no? I imagine getting roaches and a couple spines would be plenty enough to hold this off. How late is your third going to be if in midgame you dont get third and instead get a bunch of roaches and some spine? youd be massively behind. The push does fine against roaches anyway its just if you get mass roaches what shuts this push down is getting lings/banes or getting mass roaches. | ||
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Gator
United States3432 Posts
very very good build | ||
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote: Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do? Just don't attack with the first 3 marines imo. Im not entirely sure but I believe he did have something in his base to defend. Also, if the Z attempts to counterattack he will probably want to get additional units, meaning less drones... which is really bad for him if he fails the attack. So I think most Z just wont take the risk and just go safe, as in drone up instead of trying to attack. I personally dislike sending marines like that unless Im threatening with a bunker being constructed. On March 14 2012 08:31 MetalGear wrote: If zerg is investing heavy in roaches and blings which some people say can easily hold this push wouldn't it be better just to not engage? Zerg's 3rd will be late they will be behind in upgrades and tech and you can take your'e 3rd and get medivacs and start dropping since they wen't heavy roaches and will be slow to respond to drops and you should be way in front. Yes, it might be better to just not engage. Maybe come back when you get the medivacs out.  Cheers Dan | ||
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yoona2012
Denmark196 Posts
On March 12 2012 05:40 Hiflon wrote: I've been seeing DeMusliM doing this style for quite a while now but I can't remember where I saw him do it. But basically it's a hellion + stimmed marines psuh into tank/marine combo against Zerg. So I was wondering if anyone knew something about it and could tell me about the weaknesses and strengths of the build? It´s basically the marauder hellion push, just with marines instead of marauders. The strenght is that it transitions much better into marine tank medivac and is alot safer against fast muta play. The weakness is that it´s alot more micro intensive - less forgiving with bad micro and it doesn´t kill spines or queens as fast is hellion marauder. 2 spines, 2 queens and a handful of speedlings shuts down this push assuming you´ve been able to spread your creep at least down to the bottom of your naturals ramp, so your speedlings can get a surround once the marines poke up and transfuse and queens take care of any remaining hellions. Alternatively you could do 4 queens 3 spines with practically no lings if you´ve simcitied your natural ramp with evo chamber or 3 spines 2 queens and a handful of speedlings if you want to be extremely safe. This is assuming its the standard about 6 hellions with 10 marines, some cases you´ll encounter a delayed version with alot more stuff, and obviously you´ll need more defence. Banelings can be useful, but only if you get to land them and spread your creep well since baneling speed wont be done and offcreep they are free units for hellions. I wouldn´t recommend roaches at all unless he makes more than 8 hellions. This is mainly because he invested in stim, and that´s a clear indication that he isn´t planning on playing pure mech. If you go roaches, then it should either be a minimal amount (4 seems reasonable) or if you sense a weakness and can simply do 2 base all in roach and finish him off. | ||
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jabberjaw
225 Posts
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jonaa
Netherlands151 Posts
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Spieltor
327 Posts
i hope all you people who say "it punishes greedy zerg" understand that zerg has learned to be "greedy" to win. Zerg is the macro race, as artosis says, "you cant beat terrans or protoss at micro because they have range, you have to beat them at macro". this is true. Zerg army costs more to field, even if the overall resource cost count at any snapshot in the game is less. because zerg needs to use up units killing T or P, then remake, so give them roughly 1.5x the resource cost of their army the next time you see a zerg playing to beat an attack and you have a more accurate picture. For instance, Zerg needs to have a higher supply count out in midgame, and vs P needs to have corruptors out before coloss gets too big in numbers, corruptors actually cost more than vikings and you need about 8-12 of them as they do less damage to coloss than vikings as well. Its very simple to understand that for zerg to be winning engagements, it needs to field an army that is either bigger or costs more for specific ANTI-roles in order to continue winning until brood lords come out. That is why zergs play "greedy". Its a necessity to winning. Haven't you all looked at why stephano and other zergs win? it's not because of superior micro, and its not because zerg has gotten buffs to ANY of its main attack units. its because steph and other winning zergs have learned to BE GREEDY and turn that into faster upgrades, more units, etc. Doesn't that alone say something about what zerg requires to win vs T and P? | ||
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ROOTIllusion
United States1060 Posts
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
On March 14 2012 15:17 dotDash wrote: Just don't attack with the first 3 marines imo. Im not entirely sure but I believe he did have something in his base to defend. Also, if the Z attempts to counterattack he will probably want to get additional units, meaning less drones... which is really bad for him if he fails the attack. So I think most Z just wont take the risk and just go safe, as in drone up instead of trying to attack. I personally dislike sending marines like that unless Im threatening with a bunker being constructed. Cheers Dan Even if I don't attack with the first three marines, I am still very susceptible to over produced lings, even if I get a bunker. My practice partner figured this out very quickly >.> And I watched the replay, Demuslim doesn't get any additional stuff, so what should I do? | ||
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
On March 15 2012 03:29 -Aura- wrote: Even if I don't attack with the first three marines, I am still very susceptible to over produced lings, even if I get a bunker. My practice partner figured this out very quickly >.> And I watched the replay, Demuslim doesn't get any additional stuff, so what should I do? Im not 100% familiar with the build yet so I dont know all the details, just so you know. Now to your problem.. how about walling off somehow? You should, in theory, be able to hold off endless amounts of lings with a wall off, repairing scvs and just a couple of rines... and the amount of money you spend on repairing should be much less than the investment he did to produce all the lings. Survive, get yourself a nice timing push and hit him hard. Cheers Dan | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote: Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do? Uh, you have units... the reactor finishes in time, and you have 3 rax, 1 reactor, and make 4 marines at a time. Finish CC low ground, and lift in necessary. I personally dislike sending marines like that unless Im threatening with a bunker being constructed. It's a timing thing. It does damage, no need to bunker. It forces lings out, and you can just pick OLs, or queens, or drones and just be generally gay to them. I've ran this build now like 11 times, I'm 9-2, and have come up with a slew of transitions. The marine poke always is so fun, unless bad zerg makes blind 6-8 lings for no reason. This is a build meant for better zergs, IMO. This is assuming its the standard about 6 hellions with 10 marines, some cases you´ll encounter a delayed version with alot more stuff, and obviously you´ll need more defence. Banelings can be useful, but only if you get to land them and spread your creep well since baneling speed wont be done and offcreep they are free units for hellions. I wouldn´t recommend roaches at all unless he makes more than 8 hellions. This is mainly because he invested in stim, and that´s a clear indication that he isn´t planning on playing pure mech. If you go roaches, then it should either be a minimal amount (4 seems reasonable) or if you sense a weakness and can simply do 2 base all in roach and finish him off. ...? what? I usually hit with 4-5 hellions, and about 20-25 marines...You do know that if they don't just roach bane you, roaches late aren't really too smart. I've met zergs who try to roach ling me after the poke, and we meet in the midfield when stim is done, and CS and +1...and with basic micro I rolled the zerg. | ||
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yoona2012
Denmark196 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote: ...? what? I usually hit with 4-5 hellions, and about 20-25 marines...You do know that if they don't just roach bane you, roaches late aren't really too smart. I've met zergs who try to roach ling me after the poke, and we meet in the midfield when stim is done, and CS and +1...and with basic micro I rolled the zerg. The standard version which is similar to the marauder hellion push is constant hellion production and constant marine production from 1 rax at move out when stim is 90% complete. At least that´s what I´ve most commenly seen on stream, there may be other versions, in the end they are all bastard offspring of the hellion marauder idea. Naturally if you have both CS stim and +1 done, your push is later (by alot). The version that I call standard aims to punish zergs who rely mainly on 1-2 spines, evo chamber and an extra queen early game while droning hard. It´s that timing window both the hellion stim marauder and hellion stim marine push tries to take advantage off. It´s a timing window where most zergs won´t have banelings nest or any upgrades done but metabolic boost - going for stim, cs and +1 will miss this window and possibly have to engange a good way on creep against banes with bane speed and a ton of lings (not saying it wont work, but it´s a different timing entirely). The common traits they do share (the early hellion marine stim push and the hellion marine with stim cs and +1) is just they have similar combosition and they both (ought to) hit before muta timing or infestors with nrg upgrade. | ||
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote: It's a timing thing. It does damage, no need to bunker. It forces lings out, and you can just pick OLs, or queens, or drones and just be generally gay to them. I've ran this build now like 11 times, I'm 9-2, and have come up with a slew of transitions. The marine poke always is so fun, unless bad zerg makes blind 6-8 lings for no reason. This is a build meant for better zergs, IMO. What about adding a bunker to it? Wouldnt it force even more lings and very little extra investment..? ..This would involve starting the bunker earlier, like when the first rine or so is on its way or something. Cheers Dan | ||
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote: Uh, you have units... the reactor finishes in time, and you have 3 rax, 1 reactor, and make 4 marines at a time. Finish CC low ground, and lift in necessary. . The first three marines can die before any units are produced from your reactored rax or your factory. So if he has lings left and runs them to my base then what? Do you build your CC in base? That would help, but you still can't take your nat until you have marines and hellions, which takes a bit of time. Also, could you share the 9 succesful replays? Or just a few, or even one? Just to help out the rest of us plebeans ^^ | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 15 2012 05:53 dotDash wrote: What about adding a bunker to it? Wouldnt it force even more lings and very little extra investment..? ..This would involve starting the bunker earlier, like when the first rine or so is on its way or something. Cheers Dan I do that, just to force the drone pull. He talks about it on his stream. The make a spine go on 3 marines, No spines, 4 marines, and an scv., | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 15 2012 07:15 -Aura- wrote: The first three marines can die before any units are produced from your reactored rax or your factory. So if he has lings left and runs them to my base then what? Do you build your CC in base? That would help, but you still can't take your nat until you have marines and hellions, which takes a bit of time. Also, could you share the 9 succesful replays? Or just a few, or even one? Just to help out the rest of us plebeans ^^ I don't always do the 3 rax 1 fac, I found it nice to go into reactor hellion into cloakshee into bio, but sure lemme upload 'em. Two of them are the hellion/banshee, rest are 3-1 opening. I still don't have it refined, but I fucking love it. I made it into a marauder hellion marine, marine hellion, hellion banshee, etc. Not against the best zergs, just random ones I could find to play. Last one on dualsight is against my man ben, he's solid as shit IMO. http://drop.sc/130748 http://drop.sc/133759 http://drop.sc/133760 http://drop.sc/133761 http://drop.sc/133762 http://drop.sc/133764 http://drop.sc/133763 -- Just a little bonus for fun. Reaper/hellion, at it's finest. lol | ||
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MaV_gGSC
Canada1345 Posts
On March 12 2012 06:07 Thorzain wrote: No it's a +1 attack stim (maybe combat shields as well, i forgot) and a bunch of hellions timing. Not all-in in any way. I think he used it at IEM Sao Paolo for example. Tremble in the glory of the all mighty. | ||
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
On March 15 2012 07:28 iAmJeffReY wrote: I don't always do the 3 rax 1 fac, I found it nice to go into reactor hellion into cloakshee into bio, but sure lemme upload 'em. Two of them are the hellion/banshee, rest are 3-1 opening. I still don't have it refined, but I fucking love it. I made it into a marauder hellion marine, marine hellion, hellion banshee, etc. Not against the best zergs, just random ones I could find to play. Last one on dualsight is against my man ben, he's solid as shit IMO. http://drop.sc/130748 http://drop.sc/133759 http://drop.sc/133760 http://drop.sc/133761 http://drop.sc/133762 http://drop.sc/133764 http://drop.sc/133763 -- Just a little bonus for fun. Reaper/hellion, at it's finest. lol K, downloading now, thanks for your help. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
Yup. PM me if you have any questions. I'm figuring this thing out myself, I wouldn't mind hammering it out with another player, regardless of skill level. On March 15 2012 08:11 evanthebouncy! wrote: so from reading this(the whole thread)... zerg has no answer to it hahaha Ling bane always clears me up if they make enough banes and I don't split amazingly. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
zerg has no answer to it hahaha | ||
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-Aura-
United States209 Posts
It's worth noting in the OP that you can afford to throw down your second depot and complete your wall while taking your second gas, it doesn't delay your orbital at all. This makes the Z completely in the dark, as they can't get into your base. What I really need to do is get a zerg to do all the cheeses like 7rr, baneling bust, etc against this build, and see if it's weak. Seems like it could be, because you expand with very few units. Require more testing it seems. | ||
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drbrown
Sweden442 Posts
On March 15 2012 08:11 evanthebouncy! wrote: so from reading this(the whole thread)... zerg has no answer to it hahaha It's actually pretty simple, low hellion count that comes later than usual lets you spread creep more easily. Then when the attack comes you need to have a group of lings and banelings ready and feint a bunch of times, if you force two stims or more without engaging you've basically held it since he has no medivacs and a baneling will oneshot the marines at that point. If you've identified it as hellion/marine timing earlier you can two spine crawlers as well, this makes the back and forward dance with the lings/blings a lot easier. | ||
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akarin
Ireland42 Posts
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Falconblade
United States1035 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 15 2012 09:18 -Aura- wrote: Jeffrey, in the replays you don't actually do the push, just the opening. I like your hellion banshee stuff a lot also, and in a BoX if I can get both styles down it will be very strong, because 1 rax gasless expand, mass marine allin, this opening with Demuslim's push, and your style with banshees and whatnot all looks exactly the same to the zerg. It's worth noting in the OP that you can afford to throw down your second depot and complete your wall while taking your second gas, it doesn't delay your orbital at all. This makes the Z completely in the dark, as they can't get into your base. What I really need to do is get a zerg to do all the cheeses like 7rr, baneling bust, etc against this build, and see if it's weak. Seems like it could be, because you expand with very few units. Require more testing it seems. I have an issue with patience. lol I cannot sit, I have to be on the map and in the zergs face. What I really need to do is get a zerg to do all the cheeses like 7rr, baneling bust, etc against this build, and see if it's weak. Seems like it could be, because you expand with very few units. Require more testing it seems. You scout no expo, just make marines, throw down a tech lab and get a tank + siege and forgo the push, and win with 2 bases and 3 rax 1 fac. You can easily scout 1 base play. | ||
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Ace1123
Philippines1187 Posts
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aLmosTeu
Germany101 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:59 Ace1123 wrote: Can anyone post a Complete Guide for this build? It would help much for us low level players who can't understand well i think so too! :D | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On March 12 2012 05:41 Falcon-sw wrote: Both hellions and marines do pretty poorly against roaches, no? I imagine getting roaches and a couple spines would be plenty enough to hold this off. While 2 Marines loses to 1 Roach, with Combat Shields only, 16 Roaches loses to 32 Marines. Of course Stim skews it towards the Marines even more. | ||
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drbrown
Sweden442 Posts
On March 15 2012 22:59 Ace1123 wrote: Can anyone post a Complete Guide for this build? It would help much for us low level players who can't understand well 10 Supply depot 12 Barracks Rally the 15th SCV to the gas 16 Depot 17 Orbital Command 21 CC at Natural (assumes hatch first) Push with three marines whenever they are done. 22 Factory, with your next 50 gas you put a reactor on the barracks. ~24 two more barracks. Produce hellions one by one. Constant marine production out of the initial barracks. When your two additional barracks finish, engineering bay, this is roughly around 32 supply, get +1 attack once it finishes. At the same time add on two tech labs to the barracks as soon as they finish and start stim research on one of them, constant marine production out of both, When +1 attack finishes, stim should be close to finishing. As you move out to attack you should have 5-6 hellions, and between 15-18 marines (not quite sure). While moving out, start another CC, two more refineries, add starport and more barracks. Swap the Factory with one of the tech lab barracks and start tank production. Upgrade combat shields, move out to take your third when it's safe, keep adding on production, get reactored medivacs etc etc. Bear in mind a certain level of multitasking is required for this build. You must be able to macro behind the three marines push, deny creep spread with hellions while macroing and finally manage the stim/hellion timing while adding on the additional infrastructure. | ||
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Jehnin
Belgium7 Posts
On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote: Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do? There is indeed a small window between your 3 marines push (which I feel is quite essential) when you have absolutly no units on the field. But a simple wall-off will hold the ling long enough for your first hellion to pop and clear the first lings while your 4-by-4 marine production kicks-in. Chosing not to attack with your 3 marines out of sheer timidity gives the Zerg way too much early droning and map control. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Defend at top of the ramp to the natural with ling bling or ling bling roach, difficult to defend when playing for a macro game without blings. | ||
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drbrown
Sweden442 Posts
On March 16 2012 01:39 statikg wrote: You have 2 tech lab rax so you can easily mix in a good number of mauarders if you scout roaches. Best response by zerg is to cancel their 3rd and get infestors since you will have late tanks. Mutas is also good since terran will usually be stretched thin if he tries to take that quick 3rd. Defend at top of the ramp to the natural with ling bling or ling bling roach, difficult to defend when playing for a macro game without blings. Not really, if the terran allready has a third CC coming, cancelling your third (assuming it wasn't done yet) is a bad idea. Go ling/bling heavy, dance around and force stims until the marines are too weak to put up a fight. | ||
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
standard hellion/reactor opening with natural exp leave fac naked for hellions non stop non stop marines 2nd gas after 4 reactored hellions from then on u should have production on 1 reactored rax/2 rax with stim and shields finishing. At the same time u need a fast ebay for the +1, last tech structure is a starport which is switched on the reactor asap and double medivacs are what defines the "timing" of the attack. heres the rep for it: http://drop.sc/148676 To sum up: does such a timing push have any serious issue at a masters lvl game? Has it been refined and used by some1 that I can search and copy from? I find demuslim push excellent but im just not confident enough without my medivacs out(which defines my tvp as well). Once again, im just asking for help im not really suggesting or taking credit for anything, im just diamond. | ||
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PolishxThunder
United States153 Posts
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