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On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:
...? what? I usually hit with 4-5 hellions, and about 20-25 marines...You do know that if they don't just roach bane you, roaches late aren't really too smart. I've met zergs who try to roach ling me after the poke, and we meet in the midfield when stim is done, and CS and +1...and with basic micro I rolled the zerg.
The standard version which is similar to the marauder hellion push is constant hellion production and constant marine production from 1 rax at move out when stim is 90% complete. At least that´s what I´ve most commenly seen on stream, there may be other versions, in the end they are all bastard offspring of the hellion marauder idea. Naturally if you have both CS stim and +1 done, your push is later (by alot). The version that I call standard aims to punish zergs who rely mainly on 1-2 spines, evo chamber and an extra queen early game while droning hard. It´s that timing window both the hellion stim marauder and hellion stim marine push tries to take advantage off. It´s a timing window where most zergs won´t have banelings nest or any upgrades done but metabolic boost - going for stim, cs and +1 will miss this window and possibly have to engange a good way on creep against banes with bane speed and a ton of lings (not saying it wont work, but it´s a different timing entirely).
The common traits they do share (the early hellion marine stim push and the hellion marine with stim cs and +1) is just they have similar combosition and they both (ought to) hit before muta timing or infestors with nrg upgrade.
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On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +I personally dislike sending marines like that unless Im threatening with a bunker being constructed.
It's a timing thing. It does damage, no need to bunker. It forces lings out, and you can just pick OLs, or queens, or drones and just be generally gay to them. I've ran this build now like 11 times, I'm 9-2, and have come up with a slew of transitions. The marine poke always is so fun, unless bad zerg makes blind 6-8 lings for no reason. This is a build meant for better zergs, IMO.
What about adding a bunker to it? Wouldnt it force even more lings and very little extra investment..?
..This would involve starting the bunker earlier, like when the first rine or so is on its way or something.
Cheers
Dan
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On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote:
Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do? Uh, you have units... the reactor finishes in time, and you have 3 rax, 1 reactor, and make 4 marines at a time. Finish CC low ground, and lift in necessary. .
The first three marines can die before any units are produced from your reactored rax or your factory. So if he has lings left and runs them to my base then what? Do you build your CC in base? That would help, but you still can't take your nat until you have marines and hellions, which takes a bit of time.
Also, could you share the 9 succesful replays? Or just a few, or even one? Just to help out the rest of us plebeans ^^
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On March 15 2012 05:53 dotDash wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:I personally dislike sending marines like that unless Im threatening with a bunker being constructed.
It's a timing thing. It does damage, no need to bunker. It forces lings out, and you can just pick OLs, or queens, or drones and just be generally gay to them. I've ran this build now like 11 times, I'm 9-2, and have come up with a slew of transitions. The marine poke always is so fun, unless bad zerg makes blind 6-8 lings for no reason. This is a build meant for better zergs, IMO. What about adding a bunker to it? Wouldnt it force even more lings and very little extra investment..? ..This would involve starting the bunker earlier, like when the first rine or so is on its way or something. Cheers Dan
I do that, just to force the drone pull. He talks about it on his stream. The make a spine go on 3 marines, No spines, 4 marines, and an scv.,
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On March 15 2012 07:15 -Aura- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote:
Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do? Uh, you have units... the reactor finishes in time, and you have 3 rax, 1 reactor, and make 4 marines at a time. Finish CC low ground, and lift in necessary. . The first three marines can die before any units are produced from your reactored rax or your factory. So if he has lings left and runs them to my base then what? Do you build your CC in base? That would help, but you still can't take your nat until you have marines and hellions, which takes a bit of time. Also, could you share the 9 succesful replays? Or just a few, or even one? Just to help out the rest of us plebeans ^^
I don't always do the 3 rax 1 fac, I found it nice to go into reactor hellion into cloakshee into bio, but sure lemme upload 'em.
Two of them are the hellion/banshee, rest are 3-1 opening. I still don't have it refined, but I fucking love it.
I made it into a marauder hellion marine, marine hellion, hellion banshee, etc. Not against the best zergs, just random ones I could find to play. Last one on dualsight is against my man ben, he's solid as shit IMO.
http://drop.sc/130748
http://drop.sc/133759
http://drop.sc/133760
http://drop.sc/133761
http://drop.sc/133762
http://drop.sc/133764
http://drop.sc/133763 -- Just a little bonus for fun. Reaper/hellion, at it's finest. lol
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On March 12 2012 06:07 Thorzain wrote:
No it's a +1 attack stim (maybe combat shields as well, i forgot) and a bunch of hellions timing. Not all-in in any way. I think he used it at IEM Sao Paolo for example.
Tremble in the glory of the all mighty.
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On March 15 2012 07:28 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:15 -Aura- wrote:On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote:
Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do? Uh, you have units... the reactor finishes in time, and you have 3 rax, 1 reactor, and make 4 marines at a time. Finish CC low ground, and lift in necessary. . The first three marines can die before any units are produced from your reactored rax or your factory. So if he has lings left and runs them to my base then what? Do you build your CC in base? That would help, but you still can't take your nat until you have marines and hellions, which takes a bit of time. Also, could you share the 9 succesful replays? Or just a few, or even one? Just to help out the rest of us plebeans ^^ I don't always do the 3 rax 1 fac, I found it nice to go into reactor hellion into cloakshee into bio, but sure lemme upload 'em. Two of them are the hellion/banshee, rest are 3-1 opening. I still don't have it refined, but I fucking love it. I made it into a marauder hellion marine, marine hellion, hellion banshee, etc. Not against the best zergs, just random ones I could find to play. Last one on dualsight is against my man ben, he's solid as shit IMO. http://drop.sc/130748http://drop.sc/133759http://drop.sc/133760http://drop.sc/133761http://drop.sc/133762http://drop.sc/133764http://drop.sc/133763 -- Just a little bonus for fun. Reaper/hellion, at it's finest. lol
K, downloading now, thanks for your help.
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On March 15 2012 07:45 -Aura- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:28 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 15 2012 07:15 -Aura- wrote:On March 15 2012 05:23 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote:
Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do? Uh, you have units... the reactor finishes in time, and you have 3 rax, 1 reactor, and make 4 marines at a time. Finish CC low ground, and lift in necessary. . The first three marines can die before any units are produced from your reactored rax or your factory. So if he has lings left and runs them to my base then what? Do you build your CC in base? That would help, but you still can't take your nat until you have marines and hellions, which takes a bit of time. Also, could you share the 9 succesful replays? Or just a few, or even one? Just to help out the rest of us plebeans ^^ I don't always do the 3 rax 1 fac, I found it nice to go into reactor hellion into cloakshee into bio, but sure lemme upload 'em. Two of them are the hellion/banshee, rest are 3-1 opening. I still don't have it refined, but I fucking love it. I made it into a marauder hellion marine, marine hellion, hellion banshee, etc. Not against the best zergs, just random ones I could find to play. Last one on dualsight is against my man ben, he's solid as shit IMO. http://drop.sc/130748http://drop.sc/133759http://drop.sc/133760http://drop.sc/133761http://drop.sc/133762http://drop.sc/133764http://drop.sc/133763 -- Just a little bonus for fun. Reaper/hellion, at it's finest. lol K, downloading now, thanks for your help.
Yup. PM me if you have any questions. I'm figuring this thing out myself, I wouldn't mind hammering it out with another player, regardless of skill level.
On March 15 2012 08:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
so from reading this(the whole thread)...
zerg has no answer to it hahaha
Ling bane always clears me up if they make enough banes and I don't split amazingly.
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so from reading this(the whole thread)...
zerg has no answer to it hahaha
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Jeffrey, in the replays you don't actually do the push, just the opening. I like your hellion banshee stuff a lot also, and in a BoX if I can get both styles down it will be very strong, because 1 rax gasless expand, mass marine allin, this opening with Demuslim's push, and your style with banshees and whatnot all looks exactly the same to the zerg.
It's worth noting in the OP that you can afford to throw down your second depot and complete your wall while taking your second gas, it doesn't delay your orbital at all. This makes the Z completely in the dark, as they can't get into your base.
What I really need to do is get a zerg to do all the cheeses like 7rr, baneling bust, etc against this build, and see if it's weak. Seems like it could be, because you expand with very few units. Require more testing it seems.
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On March 15 2012 08:11 evanthebouncy! wrote:
so from reading this(the whole thread)...
zerg has no answer to it hahaha
It's actually pretty simple, low hellion count that comes later than usual lets you spread creep more easily. Then when the attack comes you need to have a group of lings and banelings ready and feint a bunch of times, if you force two stims or more without engaging you've basically held it since he has no medivacs and a baneling will oneshot the marines at that point.
If you've identified it as hellion/marine timing earlier you can two spine crawlers as well, this makes the back and forward dance with the lings/blings a lot easier.
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You can find a replay of this by searching for MLG's winter area replay pack - Demuslim executed this build game 1 vs Nestea on Tal' Darim Alter
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It's an absolutely great build. I love it. It's tough to pull off on some maps (In Cloud Kingdom you have to engage from the third as opposed to the ramp, which is additional time for the zerg to catch up, but it's very strong when done right.
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On March 15 2012 09:18 -Aura- wrote:
Jeffrey, in the replays you don't actually do the push, just the opening. I like your hellion banshee stuff a lot also, and in a BoX if I can get both styles down it will be very strong, because 1 rax gasless expand, mass marine allin, this opening with Demuslim's push, and your style with banshees and whatnot all looks exactly the same to the zerg.
It's worth noting in the OP that you can afford to throw down your second depot and complete your wall while taking your second gas, it doesn't delay your orbital at all. This makes the Z completely in the dark, as they can't get into your base.
What I really need to do is get a zerg to do all the cheeses like 7rr, baneling bust, etc against this build, and see if it's weak. Seems like it could be, because you expand with very few units. Require more testing it seems.
I have an issue with patience. lol I cannot sit, I have to be on the map and in the zergs face.
What I really need to do is get a zerg to do all the cheeses like 7rr, baneling bust, etc against this build, and see if it's weak. Seems like it could be, because you expand with very few units. Require more testing it seems.
You scout no expo, just make marines, throw down a tech lab and get a tank + siege and forgo the push, and win with 2 bases and 3 rax 1 fac. You can easily scout 1 base play.
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Can anyone post a Complete Guide for this build? It would help much for us low level players who can't understand well
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On March 15 2012 22:59 Ace1123 wrote:
Can anyone post a Complete Guide for this build? It would help much for us low level players who can't understand well
i think so too! :D
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On March 12 2012 05:41 Falcon-sw wrote:
Both hellions and marines do pretty poorly against roaches, no? I imagine getting roaches and a couple spines would be plenty enough to hold this off.
While 2 Marines loses to 1 Roach, with Combat Shields only, 16 Roaches loses to 32 Marines. Of course Stim skews it towards the Marines even more.
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On March 15 2012 22:59 Ace1123 wrote:
Can anyone post a Complete Guide for this build? It would help much for us low level players who can't understand well
10 Supply depot
12 Barracks
Rally the 15th SCV to the gas
16 Depot
17 Orbital Command
21 CC at Natural (assumes hatch first)
Push with three marines whenever they are done.
22 Factory, with your next 50 gas you put a reactor on the barracks.
~24 two more barracks.
Produce hellions one by one. Constant marine production out of the initial barracks.
When your two additional barracks finish, engineering bay, this is roughly around 32 supply, get +1 attack once it finishes.
At the same time add on two tech labs to the barracks as soon as they finish and start stim research on one of them, constant marine production out of both,
When +1 attack finishes, stim should be close to finishing.
As you move out to attack you should have 5-6 hellions, and between 15-18 marines (not quite sure).
While moving out, start another CC, two more refineries, add starport and more barracks. Swap the Factory with one of the tech lab barracks and start tank production. Upgrade combat shields, move out to take your third when it's safe, keep adding on production, get reactored medivacs etc etc.
Bear in mind a certain level of multitasking is required for this build. You must be able to macro behind the three marines push, deny creep spread with hellions while macroing and finally manage the stim/hellion timing while adding on the additional infrastructure.
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On March 14 2012 11:30 -Aura- wrote:
Here's my problem with this build: If you use the original 3 marines to attack and you lose them, you have no units for a bit, and if he attacks with lings you cant hold them off. So what do you guys do?
There is indeed a small window between your 3 marines push (which I feel is quite essential) when you have absolutly no units on the field. But a simple wall-off will hold the ling long enough for your first hellion to pop and clear the first lings while your 4-by-4 marine production kicks-in.
Chosing not to attack with your 3 marines out of sheer timidity gives the Zerg way too much early droning and map control.
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You have 2 tech lab rax so you can easily mix in a good number of mauarders if you scout roaches. Best response by zerg is to cancel their 3rd and get infestors since you will have late tanks. Mutas is also good since terran will usually be stretched thin if he tries to take that quick 3rd.
Defend at top of the ramp to the natural with ling bling or ling bling roach, difficult to defend when playing for a macro game without blings.
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EPT
