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Hello, been a long time since I have translated articles/interviews on TL.
Korean commentator, Engine, made a very deep analysis on MVP's mech build against Zerg on his tweeter (In Korean). After reading his analysis, the build order is something very worthy of looking at.
Once IEM replays are posted, I intend to break down the build and copy it which I will update it on this post. But in the meanwhile, I have translated what Engine said on his Tweeter.
Original : https://twitter.com/Engine141
The reason why previous mechanic builds could not be the mainstream build is that they had a severe weakness to certain timings. One is when Zerg teched up to Lair and another is when Hive is done.
When Terran players continuously make Thors and Hellions, speed-up Roach drop or Nydus could end the game. But when Terran makes too many Seige Tanks, scared of roach attacks, surprise Mutalisks do lots of damage. So when Terrans try to go defensive, they can never have a lead during the game. Furthermore, going defensively can give Zerg too much time to tech to Broodlords.
But MVP's recent mechanic build improvised on that weakness. The key point is Banshees. Normally, producing only two banshee is the standard. These two Banshees can be easily dealt with Queens and while they may be annoying Zerg players can go for Ling-Roach push. However MVP produces Banshees continuously and when 4-5 Banshees are produced, their firing power can easily kill roaches and banelings. What Zerg can do against this is producing lots of lings to push, ignoring banshees. However ,MVP makes unbelievable amount of Hellions. He uses these Hellions to defend if Zerg pushes with lings, and if not, he goes for drone kills.
This means that ground attacks from Zerg is prevented. Therefore Terran can easily take 6 gas much earlier than the standard timing. Then the build delays seige tank production and rather produce lots of Thors. One disadvantage of this is Banshees are only strong around Terran's base or the centre of the map. They can't support Thors if Terran decides to push as Queens can take on Banshees and Banshees won't be able to help to kill roaches. This means that Terran also can't push out which makes the game to go for longer.
While MVP's build is great against offensive Zerg players but against defensive player, it's not that effective. So MVP tries to overcome this problem with upgrades, as Terran took 6 gas easily without threats - early upgrades from 2 armory is possible. So he saves his firing power to receive great interest from upgrades which is great against Hive units.
Broodlings stay alive longer when Terran goes for mechanic than bionic. In this case, when mechanic units have well upgraded armour, Thors stay alive so much longer and with the effect of better weapons upgrade - you can observe thors killing Broodlords and Corrupters which normally you can't see.
So his build is very well built against both offensive and defensive players without ruling out any strategies from Zerg players.
(PS. 5+ banshees can snipe infestors or make them waste infestor energy)
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nice simple but still in depth analyze by "ENgine"
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And he speaks english pretty damn well too.
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I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
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On August 20 2012 02:59 Aunvilgod wrote:
And he speaks english pretty damn well too.
Haha : ) I've translated his Korean tweet into English : )
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On August 20 2012 02:59 lastshadow wrote:
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
I have no idea why you are criticizing this analysis. Please refer me to a game where a player used more than 4 banshees in a tournament. MVP didn't simply play better, his build order was different from current available mech builds AFAIK.
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I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
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On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
I guess there are a ton of awesome build orders that don´t get recognized because they are not executed by the very best Koreans.
On August 20 2012 03:00 CP-Jun wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 02:59 Aunvilgod wrote:
And he speaks english pretty damn well too. Haha : ) I've translated his Korean tweet into English : )
I know, I know his english from the Pregame show.
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Russian Federation68 Posts
Where can i found build itself?
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I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
lastshadow, always trying to get some attention are we? I thought you switched to LoL after the redbull humiliation?
User was banned for this post.
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On August 20 2012 04:08 Azulo wrote:Show nested quote +
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about. lastshadow, always trying to get some attention are we? I thought you switched to LoL after the redbull humiliation?
No need for that and I hope you get at least a warning; he's perfectly entitled to his opinion.
Whilst this is new to tournament play and op may come in for some stick from better players who are more 'in the know', for the casual observer and player of starcraft, it's a new build and one which will likely start to crop up on the ladder.
Tournament play popularises builds and top tournaments popularise the top builds.
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On August 20 2012 04:08 Azulo wrote:Show nested quote +
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about. lastshadow, always trying to get some attention are we? I thought you switched to LoL after the redbull humiliation?
1 post accounts ripping on known community members ftw.
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On August 20 2012 03:06 lastshadow wrote:
I spoke about how koreans do this in practice 24/7? My vLogs from [6] months ago talk about it heavily and state it is a core of true mech play. I spent 40minutes speaking about banshee's and their gross effect on controlling zerg and how important they are to mech.
vLog#18 is the vLog im talking about.
Theory and execution are two different things.
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I think the key point of this is the Double Armory. You might even be able to beat Zerg's 3/3 Air upgrades with your 3/3 Mech upgrades and it allows Thors to efficiently kill Brood Lords. Without the Double Armory, Thors are useless vs. Brood Lords and Hellions get murdered by Cracklings. Remember: once your 3/3 mech finishes, research air upgrades! If you finish your 3/3 air upgrades, Viking/Thor/Raven will be incredibly efficient against Brood Lord/Corrupter.
The promising thing about this is that if you play it right, the composition can work against both Ultras and Brood Lords, meaning that Tech switches are not that dangerous.
Please watch Mvp vs. VortiX game 1: http://www.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/329198029
I think that's a beautiful demonstration of how mostly Thors + a handful of Vikings + a few Ravens in the first fight (though no more Ravens were needed after that) can deal with Corrupter/Brood Lord.
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On August 20 2012 02:59 lastshadow wrote:
I honestly have no idea why this needed analysis, this was nothing special about what he was doing, and any good Terran knows banshee's are a core to mech TvZ. It's pretty silly cause he reiterates the same thing a few times in his "analysis". And his analysis is even wrong, because he can't even begin to fathom the complexity of banshee usage (albeit it is correct to use them the way MVP showcased), but to talk about it in such a simplistic manner is doing the complexity of it, a true disservice.
He didn't do anything fancy or special, he simply played better with mech, perhaps people just aren't used to seeing it a lot in "big" games, but MKP did this for a long time, why not hail him?
You shouldn't be allowed to indirectly criticize a player who wins major tournaments when you bailed out on your commitment. The simple fact that you described yourself as a good terran is an heresy to me.
But since I'm all for forgiveness and fluffy ponies maybe you can reiterate the explanation you did on your vlog so that people can see the intricacies of such a play - the least you could do would be to link to it. You know so that you can prove to yourself that you aren't just a bitter person (which is what you looks like after that post)
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I am not really sure about this, but I believe he did this build only in Metropolis, so it could be map dependant.
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Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords.
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On August 20 2012 05:30 Ratch! wrote:
I am not really sure about this, but I believe he did this build only in Metropolis, so it could be map dependant.
It is definitely map dependent, never do this on Entombed Valley. However, I have seen him do it on Ohana too. I think most small-ish maps will work well for this style of play.
On August 20 2012 06:21 art0 wrote:
Am i the only One to notice that it was really the seeker missiles that made the difference in the end game battles? MVP landed some sick heat seekers which anhiliated the broodlords before they did any damage. TvZ isn't so muh about a specific build but how u trade as cost efficiently with the inevitable broodlords.
Again, please watch Mvp vs VortiX game 1. In many battles, he did not use HSM, but the Thors/Vikings were efficient enough to clean up the Brood Lords with sufficient upgrades. Yes, the Ravens are very very good, however I think it depends on your enemy's composition.
Vs. heavy Infestor-usage, you probably need lots of Siege Tanks and Raven/Viking with a sprinkling of Thors. The Infestors won't be able to close in with the Siege Tanks there, so the Brood Lords will be exposed. If they're exposed with no Infestors nearby, then the Ravens can close in. It's basically a dance... Infestors beat Ravens, Ravens beat Brood Lords, Brood Lords beat Tanks, Tanks beat Infestors...
Vs. heavy Corrupter usage (less Infestors), you need tons of Thors since Thors will trade very efficiently with BL/Corrupter. Also have a few Vikings and Ravens and try to land those clutch HSMs. Siege Tanks are not that necessary
3/3 Thors vs. Brood Lords actually perform really well. Brood Lords kill them extremely slowly, especially with SCV and Blue Flame Hellion support, while Thors do pretty well with their splash.
Important notes about Mvp's playstyle:
1. Your main army is Vikings/Thors/Ravens/Tanks/Banshees. You want gas, your minerals are disposable. Dump your minerals into BF Hellions and constantly ravage your enemy's mineral lines. If you don't kill like 50 drones, you should make more Hellions and try again. 
I think harass is very important because if the Zerg player takes lots of bases QUICKLY, then he can probably overrun you. If you cripple his economy, then his production will be slower and you will be able to starve the Zerg out.
2. 4-5 Banshees shuts down Roach all-ins and Baneling busts pretty hard, especially if there are bunkers + Tanks + sim city with supply depots. 4-5 Banshees can also kill a Zerg if he's unprepared.
3. Scout what he's doing. If he's made lots of Roach/ling/bling, make Tanks and Banshees. If he's made Mutas, pop out 3 Thors ASAP.
4. Don't throw away your tanks. You want tanks to discourage infestors, and discouraging infestors means that your Ravens can land their HSMs. However, Tanks get owned pretty hard by BLs... so stay on your high ground, have the Thors in front tanking damage/killing Zerg Air, have your Hellions killing drones. Basically, your Thors soak up so much Broodling damage that the Tanks stay alive long enough.
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EPT
