[G] ViKingPrime's TvZ 3rd block

RoberP

United Kingdom101 Posts

July 27 2012 14:41 GMT

Intro
Since the patch, I've been struggling with the TvZ match up. It feels like without really high level skill it's very hard to compete with Zerg's economy without making yourself vulnerable to a variety of all-ins/pressures. The problem is Zerg's quick third base potential, and terran's lack of options to prevent it from being placed.

However, there's one sure fire way of making sure Zerg never takes that third base...

[image loading]

Yup - it's kinda hard for them to take their third if a shiny new command center is sat there first! Madness, you say, but there is some method to it:
Zerg is strongest in comfortable, familiar situations where they're free to hit injects, know when to make drones and when to make units, and spread their disgusting mess all over the map. This is all about forcing Zerg into bizarre situations I'm fairly sure most of them will never have dealt with before - most haven't the foggiest idea what to do when this happens...

+ Show Spoiler +

[image blocked]

The general principle is to 2 rax into a bunker contain at the bottom of Zerg's natural ramp. This is reinforced with the proxy rax, and continually reinforced into a hard contain. This generally causes Z to a) laugh, and b) drone up behind a spinecrawler - right where I want 'em. This is followed with a CC in Z's third - why? Because the hard contain forces the Zerg into one of three options (assuming they drone when scouting the bunkers) - nydus play, mutalisks, or a baneling bust. All of these are negated by having a base right next to your contain - you can easily move troops to defend your new mineral line, or move SCV's to repair bunkers and instantly reconstruct the wall.

+ Show Spoiler +

Oh hai thar banelings! What are cuties like you doing on a ramp like this?

+ Show Spoiler +

Alas, my beautiful wall - if only I had 20 SCVs nearby!

+ Show Spoiler +

Oh wait... Erm, I hope you've got another 1000 gas Mr Zerg

Adding a factory and tanks to your contain essentially makes it unbreakable, whilst reducing your push distance to zero - eat your heart out steps of war!

+ Show Spoiler +

Fairly sure he's not breaking this any time soon...

+ Show Spoiler +

Clever girl... nydus my main whilst my troops are at your base?

+ Show Spoiler +

I think my other bases'll probably be all right though...

Opening:
+ Show Spoiler +

10 - depot
12-14 proxy 2 rax - make sure to send a scout early on 4 player maps to find Z's location- the rax should be proxied as close to Z's third as possible.
+ Show Spoiler +

16 - Orbital command
17 depot - constant marines and SCVs.
21 bunker at the bottom of zergs natural ramp
23 depot
24 2nd bunker reinforcing the first
30 - CC at Z's third.
Float rax in front of bunkers + 3rd rax to complete wall - you should end up with something like this
+ Show Spoiler +

2x gas in main + rally fresh SCV's to your expo from your main.
Factory at your contain + tanks/ siege mode.
Add an ebay, rax, stim, and bunkers as necessary

Follow up:
Well now zerg is hard contained on two base, and you've the got the whole map to play with. Anything goes from here - siege push their natural, expand to the golds, drop their main - the scrappier the better - the clock on zergs minerals is ticking and they've only go so long to sort it out!
It's critically important not to build any structures besides the initial 3 depots at your main - because this is where any nydus or mutalisks are coming. Leaving nothing in your main leaves you free to evacuate without losing much besides some mining time. Peace out zergling bros.

Besides, the bafflement, confusion and pure rage this causes is totally worth it... trollface.jpg
First they LOL...
+ Show Spoiler +

Then they cry.
+ Show Spoiler +

I was delighted to receive a kind endorsement from a TL member:

On August 02 2012 13:31 TeuTeu wrote:
Looking at this from a zerg perspective and crying inside. I might quit ladder if this ever happens to me.

Replays -
+ Show Spoiler +

All replays hosted by GameReplays

Game 1 - Mutas - Antiga

Unluckily for the zerg by the time they appear I'm expanding to the gold and have a ton of marines, and turrets in his third.

Game 2 - Nydus - Shakuras

Nydus worm into my main - probably the best game, nydus all over the place, valiant effort from Zerg - but macro is considerably tricker via nydus worm when there's tanks knocking down your natural...

+ Show Spoiler +

Not the most efficient way to expand...

Game 3 - Baneling/Roach - Shakuras

Late baneling/ roach bust -
lol erm, not terribly cost efficient for him!

Game 4 - Confuzled - Antiga

1 base speedlings - I think he was a bit confused at the lack of a CC in my natural.

Game 5 - Bling bust vs rax - Ohana

ling/bling bust - breaks my wall at the cost of his whole army - SCVs transfer from my base to insta-rebuild the wall for the win

EDIT: 6 new replays, complete with lol chat from the Zerg!
Game 6 -confused.com? Try new siege tanks from Terran.org!

Game 7 - Ling runby with a late game transition to rage.

Game 9 -Emtombed valley, standard zerg response

Game 10 - Antiga shipyard
Interesting game this one, both nydus and mutas from zerg manage to kill off my main and my gold expansion - forcing a base trade - shame that once I'm in his natural my wall stops him getting back :D

Game 11 - Ohana
Attempts to bust, rages.

Game 12 - Condemmed Ridge
Apparently possible even on a map of this magnitude. Suck it Admiral Ackbar.

EDIT: Pics for Zerg responses changed.
Also - if anyone tries this build out and has success - post replays/funny pictures in the thread and I'll add 'em to the OP.

_NIx_

United States49 Posts

July 27 2012 14:43 GMT

I don't play Zerg OR Terran, but I just have to say this build looks absolutely hilarious and creative, so if it could be pulled off, I love it! Well written

Nightsz

Canada398 Posts

July 27 2012 15:04 GMT

interesting, I'll definitely try something like this on ladder when I get a chance to.

Wonder if MLG/GSL will decide to put down neutral depots at the ramp to the naturals now lol

Shaoer

United States60 Posts

July 27 2012 15:06 GMT

This is amazing! I don't play terran at all but this sounds ridiculously fun. Props to you for coming up with a great build. Well written topic too

fun to read w/ pictures

etofok

138 Posts

July 27 2012 15:13 GMT

Actually, I've been playing kinda this way lately, but I do good old barrack - gas into reactor hellions because this opening is counter to all-ins and then I block his ramp from natural with these hellions and bunkers w/ marines

Arabidopsis

24 Posts

July 27 2012 15:17 GMT

This is hilarious. Basically makes it close positions. But it seems vulnerable to (very early) all-ins or quick tech to me. What type of scouting do you try to do? Do you try to poke up into their base with your marines?

caznitch

Canada645 Posts

July 27 2012 15:20 GMT

What happens if the zerg makes a couple spine crawlers that start poking at your wall? Wouldn't this be a problem early on before you can get a tank? Sorry if that's a stupid question - only silver level here.

Antylamon

United States1981 Posts

July 27 2012 15:28 GMT

Have you ever actually lost with this yet or did you just play 5 games and come here?
If you only played 5 games with it, that's not the best way to develop a strategy...

Anyways, I can see a ling/bling flank working very easily on some maps (ie Ohana). On the maps it doesn't work on, ovie transport could do the trick. Any opinion about that?

RoberP

United Kingdom101 Posts

July 27 2012 15:31 GMT

@caznitch - you have to lift and reposition the rax, and perhaps make more bunkers behind them - the tanks are usually out fast enough that you're ok. Zerg has to spread the creep to the edge of the natural before they can move the crawlers.
@Arabidopsis - usually I float off a rax and use that for scouting/ vision. Yeah it's pretty vulnerable to really quick banelings/lings before I have my rax in position to block the bunkers - but give zergs a chance to drone and they usually take it. Not pushing with a proxy two rax leads them to think you're pretty noob/drunk :p Pity two base zerg is pretty terrible :D
@Antylamon yeah I've lost a few times (need to scout better). It's probably easy to beat if you've seen it before - but the point is most people really haven't. Ohana is a pretty rubbish map for it except that it's two player, and tanks can stop them taking down the rocks - need to get a bit lucky though. Nydus is a quicker tech than Ovie transport (and cheaper). But still up on wins to losses, which is awesome as it's such a trollstrat :D
@saaa try it and let me know!

saaaa

Germany419 Posts

July 27 2012 15:35 GMT

#10

Do you think it is also possible with mech play?

Taefox

1533 Posts

July 27 2012 15:50 GMT

#11

its so cool, normally I always do 2rax bunker into CC with 2ports banshee follow up. gonna try this out

Caliber

United States598 Posts

July 27 2012 16:19 GMT

#12

seems legit

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

July 27 2012 16:52 GMT

#13

Heh, I do this sort of thing sometimes in 2v2 with another player that does an air rush. Pretty effective.

Faust852

Luxembourg4004 Posts

July 27 2012 17:31 GMT

#14

Lol, i'll definitly try this.

xTrim

472 Posts

July 27 2012 17:32 GMT

#15

Loved it! I think that with mech play you get eliminate mech problems: your troops are on his face! no need to worry about mobility!

DarKcS

Australia1237 Posts

July 27 2012 18:08 GMT

#16

I can't really see this as viable..creep is not a problem since any good Zerg goes up to 4 queens, and goodluck on maintaining high ground vision if you're under their natural on maps like Ohana.
Although I can see in the screenshots your wall is quite far back, I'd be amazed seeing any competent Zerg let you maintain that contain.

If you want to throw away resources at denying their 3rd, just go with a QXC bunker outside nat or @ 3rd, so they are forced to pull a lot of their queens or slowlings to kill it.

EsportsJohn

United States4883 Posts

July 27 2012 18:10 GMT

#17

And 2-base muta will lose to this? I don't think so. I predict a lot of dead SCVs and a quick set of nydus expos to follow up. You're right that it will confuse the zerg player, but I think any well-rounded zerg player would be able to come up with a solution to this problem since you're essentially doing a 1-step strategy with no followup.

Bojas

Netherlands2397 Posts

July 27 2012 18:23 GMT

#18

I watched the game on shakuras - can't he just make a bunch of speedlings, run them past your defenses and win? Tanks pop at a timing where they would already be wreaking havoc in your main or at your second base.
Also super fast nydus if he went gas is pretty much impossible to hold.

Don't know about the other games but this zerg on shakuras just got confused and slipped on injects while not droning up properly.

Zheryn

Sweden3653 Posts

July 27 2012 18:44 GMT

#19

What league are you playing in?

Edit: Saw the hidden spoiler tag league symbol now. Really interesting that it works in master league.