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On October 08 2012 07:08 Teoita wrote:
@poster above me: yes and not. When i went from bronze to platinum i never microed a single battle, ever. I would just pop guardian shield, amove and go back to macroing, and to this day that has left huge gaping holes in my play. My early game gateway micro is pretty horrible, i easily lose track of my army and can't beat a 2raxing terran to save my life.
Those problems can be fixed without even having to touch your preferred build.
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On October 08 2012 07:17 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 07:08 Teoita wrote:
@poster above me: yes and not. When i went from bronze to platinum i never microed a single battle, ever. I would just pop guardian shield, amove and go back to macroing, and to this day that has left huge gaping holes in my play. My early game gateway micro is pretty horrible, i easily lose track of my army and can't beat a 2raxing terran to save my life. Those problems can be fixed without even having to touch your preferred build.
The point is, many of those things (gateway micro in his case, forcefields specifically in pvz in my case) can be learned other ways, sure. But some things are best learned from allins. Noone here is suggesting to only use allins, or even play them in the majority of your games, but it's absolutely foolhardy to discount them as bad practice or inferior to a "macro game".
I used to struggle with forcefields in pvz for example, + Show Spoiler +my pvt forcefields were quite good, but pvz is apperently a bit different
It's also both ignorant and a little insulting to say "Fortunately for you, you aren't fighting MVP's opponents, nor will you be for a very, very long time." When you 1: don't know my skill level. and 2: it doesn't change the point I was making, which that allins in general, are necessary.
If everyone only played macro games all the time we'd see people either start to allin a lot more because the metagame would be so greedy and blind allins counter that. + Show Spoiler +This actually is sort of starting to happen on ladder and in tournies, with everyone going 3 CC, fast fourth into 12 minute hive, 1 gate 1 stargate pvp, 2 gate FE pvp, etc. Which, people have also been complaining about.. lol See the thread in sc2 general for that.
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On October 08 2012 07:38 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 07:17 rd wrote:On October 08 2012 07:08 Teoita wrote:
@poster above me: yes and not. When i went from bronze to platinum i never microed a single battle, ever. I would just pop guardian shield, amove and go back to macroing, and to this day that has left huge gaping holes in my play. My early game gateway micro is pretty horrible, i easily lose track of my army and can't beat a 2raxing terran to save my life. Those problems can be fixed without even having to touch your preferred build. The point is, many of those things (gateway micro in his case, forcefields specifically in pvz in my case) can be learned other ways, sure. But some things are best learned from allins. Noone here is suggesting to only use allins, or even play them in the majority of your games, but it's absolutely foolhardy to discount them as bad practice or inferior to a "macro game".I used to struggle with forcefields in pvz for example, + Show Spoiler +my pvt forcefields were quite good, but pvz is apperently a bit different So I decided the best way to learn them would be to try +1/1 7 gate immortal sentry allinning for a while, since hitting forcefields with that build are far more important since they determine if I win or not. It worked a hell of a lot better to improve my forcefields in pvz than continuing with my macro pvz ever would. It's also both ignorant and a little insulting to say "Fortunately for you, you aren't fighting MVP's opponents, nor will you be for a very, very long time." When you 1: don't know my skill level. and 2: it doesn't change the point I was making, which that allins in general, are necessary. If everyone only played macro games all the time we'd see people either start to allin a lot more because the metagame would be so greedy and blind allins counter that. + Show Spoiler +This actually is sort of starting to happen on ladder and in tournies, with everyone going 3 CC, fast fourth into 12 minute hive, 1 gate 1 stargate pvp, 2 gate FE pvp, etc. OR we'd see a very very boring game where everyone just plays as greedy as possible and then does a couple big clashes at 16 minutes and that's it. + Show Spoiler +Which, people have also been complaining about.. lol See the thread in sc2 general for that.
They can be learned any you want to learn them. If you want to be ESPECIALLY inefficient in learning however, to the extent that they can't even be applied correctly to the ultimate playstyle you're aspiring to play, then by all means all-in and waste your time. I used to suck with forcefields too. 6 gating is a sub-optimal and over-the-top solution for something you could probably go into a custom game if you're really that unfamiliar with what decently placed force fields look like.
And get over yourself, quoting me out of context. I don't care what your skill level is. If it's not high masters/GM nor actively tested within high level bo3 tournaments, you don't have to mix it up vs the same opponent with all-ins. You're actively switching between discussing the merit of all-ins as a tool to learn for lower level players, and the merit of any all-in -- EVER. Don't confuse the two.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 08 2012 08:20 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 07:38 Chylith wrote:On October 08 2012 07:17 rd wrote:On October 08 2012 07:08 Teoita wrote:
@poster above me: yes and not. When i went from bronze to platinum i never microed a single battle, ever. I would just pop guardian shield, amove and go back to macroing, and to this day that has left huge gaping holes in my play. My early game gateway micro is pretty horrible, i easily lose track of my army and can't beat a 2raxing terran to save my life. Those problems can be fixed without even having to touch your preferred build. The point is, many of those things (gateway micro in his case, forcefields specifically in pvz in my case) can be learned other ways, sure. But some things are best learned from allins. Noone here is suggesting to only use allins, or even play them in the majority of your games, but it's absolutely foolhardy to discount them as bad practice or inferior to a "macro game".I used to struggle with forcefields in pvz for example, + Show Spoiler +my pvt forcefields were quite good, but pvz is apperently a bit different So I decided the best way to learn them would be to try +1/1 7 gate immortal sentry allinning for a while, since hitting forcefields with that build are far more important since they determine if I win or not. It worked a hell of a lot better to improve my forcefields in pvz than continuing with my macro pvz ever would. It's also both ignorant and a little insulting to say "Fortunately for you, you aren't fighting MVP's opponents, nor will you be for a very, very long time." When you 1: don't know my skill level. and 2: it doesn't change the point I was making, which that allins in general, are necessary. If everyone only played macro games all the time we'd see people either start to allin a lot more because the metagame would be so greedy and blind allins counter that. + Show Spoiler +This actually is sort of starting to happen on ladder and in tournies, with everyone going 3 CC, fast fourth into 12 minute hive, 1 gate 1 stargate pvp, 2 gate FE pvp, etc. OR we'd see a very very boring game where everyone just plays as greedy as possible and then does a couple big clashes at 16 minutes and that's it. + Show Spoiler +Which, people have also been complaining about.. lol See the thread in sc2 general for that. They can be learned any you want to learn them. If you want to be ESPECIALLY inefficient in learning however, to the extent that they can't even be applied correctly to the ultimate playstyle you're aspiring to play, then by all means all-in and waste your time. I used to suck with forcefields too. 6 gating is a sub-optimal and over-the-top solution for something you could probably go into a custom game if you're really that unfamiliar with what decently placed force fields look like. 7 gate Immortal sentry allin
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I fail to see how all-ins do not require any sort of skill. In fact, I think it requires the most skill to pull off, given that you know what you are doing. If you scout your opponent taking a huge risk (ie. double expand, tech-rushing), why not capitalize on that and kill him quickly? If you decide to pull off an all-in INTELLIGENTLY based on scouting information and play style predictions,then its a perfectly viable and credible strategy. Salty nerds who get mad because I didn't let them freely tech to battlecruisers or use some exploitable strategy make my gameplay taste better.
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All-ins are a legitimate part of the game. They may require skill to pull off (I put a qualifier there; any scrub can blindly allin). The best players tend to play macro games for the simple reason that they require the most skill. By this I mean it requires more decision-making, more micro, more macro overall, and thus they mostly have a higher skill gap. It is for this reason that most players go for macro games most if the time - it is the most reliable way of winning. That being said, II am in no way delegitimising (sp?) cheese/allins. They have their place in the very highest of skill levels.
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Hey guys. I used to be a former bronze player and gotten to gold in 2 weeks ! But as i move up, i'm facing harder opponents , duh ! I did my best in this game but idk why did i lost. I was ahead of him tho . I also don't know what kind of fonky build is he going , 5rax on 1 base ? damn . Here is the replay http://drop.sc/262443
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On October 08 2012 12:17 Misuari wrote:Hey guys. I used to be a former bronze player and gotten to gold in 2 weeks ! But as i move up, i'm facing harder opponents , duh ! I did my best in this game but idk why did i lost. I was ahead of him tho . I also don't know what kind of fonky build is he going , 5rax on 1 base ? damn . Here is the replay http://drop.sc/262443
Watch the replay and watch the army supply tab. You were way behind in army when you lost, because you spent a lot of money on tech while he just built barracks and killed you. The forge with +1 and twilight council with blink could have been an extra 10 supply of units.
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On October 08 2012 12:37 shogeki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 12:17 Misuari wrote:Hey guys. I used to be a former bronze player and gotten to gold in 2 weeks ! But as i move up, i'm facing harder opponents , duh ! I did my best in this game but idk why did i lost. I was ahead of him tho . I also don't know what kind of fonky build is he going , 5rax on 1 base ? damn . Here is the replay http://drop.sc/262443 Watch the replay and watch the army supply tab. You were way behind in army when you lost, because you spent a lot of money on tech while he just built barracks and killed you. The forge with +1 and twilight council with blink could have been an extra 10 supply of units.
Right , so if i didnt tech up , i can get alot more army? and also , robo bay should be enough to hold?
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 08 2012 12:40 Misuari wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 12:37 shogeki wrote:On October 08 2012 12:17 Misuari wrote:Hey guys. I used to be a former bronze player and gotten to gold in 2 weeks ! But as i move up, i'm facing harder opponents , duh ! I did my best in this game but idk why did i lost. I was ahead of him tho . I also don't know what kind of fonky build is he going , 5rax on 1 base ? damn . Here is the replay http://drop.sc/262443 Watch the replay and watch the army supply tab. You were way behind in army when you lost, because you spent a lot of money on tech while he just built barracks and killed you. The forge with +1 and twilight council with blink could have been an extra 10 supply of units. Right , so if i didnt tech up , i can get alot more army? and also , robo bay should be enough to hold?
Against any terran one base all-in, the most common and popular way to hold is to do some sort of 1gate expand into 4-5gate+robo defense with immortals. It's extremely hard to tech up against 1basing terrans and if you do the only viable choice is to go colossus, to deal with any delayed all-in that waits for too many marines for your gateway units to handle alone.
That advice is generally regarding 111, but it also works vs bio allins which are actually very weak.
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On October 08 2012 15:49 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 12:40 Misuari wrote:On October 08 2012 12:37 shogeki wrote:On October 08 2012 12:17 Misuari wrote:Hey guys. I used to be a former bronze player and gotten to gold in 2 weeks ! But as i move up, i'm facing harder opponents , duh ! I did my best in this game but idk why did i lost. I was ahead of him tho . I also don't know what kind of fonky build is he going , 5rax on 1 base ? damn . Here is the replay http://drop.sc/262443 Watch the replay and watch the army supply tab. You were way behind in army when you lost, because you spent a lot of money on tech while he just built barracks and killed you. The forge with +1 and twilight council with blink could have been an extra 10 supply of units. Right , so if i didnt tech up , i can get alot more army? and also , robo bay should be enough to hold? Against any terran one base all-in, the most common and popular way to hold is to do some sort of 1gate expand into 4-5gate+robo defense with immortals. It's extremely hard to tech up against 1basing terrans and if you do the only viable choice is to go colossus, to deal with any delayed all-in that waits for too many marines for your gateway units to handle alone. That advice is generally regarding 111, but it also works vs bio allins which are actually very weak.
I'll add to this. If you manage to to tech to Collossus it can be game ending. It involves a bit of a coin flip though, as the Paul might happen just before your Collossus is finished. The safest thing is to cut Probes at 40ish and get gates and Immortals.
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On October 08 2012 16:34 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 15:49 Teoita wrote:On October 08 2012 12:40 Misuari wrote:On October 08 2012 12:37 shogeki wrote:On October 08 2012 12:17 Misuari wrote:Hey guys. I used to be a former bronze player and gotten to gold in 2 weeks ! But as i move up, i'm facing harder opponents , duh ! I did my best in this game but idk why did i lost. I was ahead of him tho . I also don't know what kind of fonky build is he going , 5rax on 1 base ? damn . Here is the replay http://drop.sc/262443 Watch the replay and watch the army supply tab. You were way behind in army when you lost, because you spent a lot of money on tech while he just built barracks and killed you. The forge with +1 and twilight council with blink could have been an extra 10 supply of units. Right , so if i didnt tech up , i can get alot more army? and also , robo bay should be enough to hold? Against any terran one base all-in, the most common and popular way to hold is to do some sort of 1gate expand into 4-5gate+robo defense with immortals. It's extremely hard to tech up against 1basing terrans and if you do the only viable choice is to go colossus, to deal with any delayed all-in that waits for too many marines for your gateway units to handle alone. That advice is generally regarding 111, but it also works vs bio allins which are actually very weak. I'll add to this. If you manage to to tech to Collossus it can be game ending. It involves a bit of a coin flip though, as the Paul might happen just before your Collossus is finished. The safest thing is to cut Probes at 40ish and get gates and Immortals.
Ahhh that's more helpful. Right. Thanks guys!
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Since I play more against better Zerg, I have a lot of trouble facing the Ling/Baneling/Muta style.
It's not that I choose wrong build orders but rather the wrong unit composition. By the way: Mutas aren't the main reason with my trouble, it's rare that Mutas can damage my economy.
But I have problems with Lings & Banelings. Usually my main army consists of Immortals, Archons, Sentrys and Blink Stalkers. But if I miss the Forcefields one time, I may lose my whole army to a freaking Baneling ball...
Should I rather work on perfect Forcefields or is there a better army composition against this style? I don't want to get many Zealots as they melt when connecting with Banelings.
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Italy12246 Posts
Other than improving your ff's, a key to fighting muta ling play in general is getting storm. Not only is it absolutely mandatory against mutas for obvious reasons (archons alone don't cut it), it's great aoe in general to have for the later stages of the game, and it absolutely devastates banelings.
Also, do not invest into immortals unless you want to try and break down a spine crawler wall (and you don't have time/resources to go colossus), or unless he's making ultras. Immortals are dead weight vs muta play.
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On October 09 2012 03:41 Teoita wrote:
Other than improving your ff's, a key to fighting muta ling play in general is getting storm. Not only is it absolutely mandatory against mutas for obvious reasons (archons alone don't cut it), it's great aoe in general to have for the later stages of the game, and it absolutely devastates banelings.
Also, do not invest into immortals unless you want to try and break down a spine crawler wall (and you don't have time/resources to go colossus), or unless he's making ultras. Immortals are dead weight vs muta play.
I kind of agree and disagree, I mean don't actively aim for immortals once you know its muta play, but having a few in your army isn't going to hurt, I"ve won plenty of games vs muta play from having immortals the my main army as I base trade with storms at home.
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Easy (I think) and fast question, how do I defend against 2 rax concussive shells on 1 gate FE opening?
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On October 09 2012 13:56 Zath.erin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 03:41 Teoita wrote:
Other than improving your ff's, a key to fighting muta ling play in general is getting storm. Not only is it absolutely mandatory against mutas for obvious reasons (archons alone don't cut it), it's great aoe in general to have for the later stages of the game, and it absolutely devastates banelings.
Also, do not invest into immortals unless you want to try and break down a spine crawler wall (and you don't have time/resources to go colossus), or unless he's making ultras. Immortals are dead weight vs muta play. I kind of agree and disagree, I mean don't actively aim for immortals once you know its muta play, but having a few in your army isn't going to hurt, I"ve won plenty of games vs muta play from having immortals the my main army as I base trade with storms at home.
Not to mention a possible roach spam. Dont get me wrong immortals are definitely dead wieght for the most part but 2 to 3 I dont think will hurt much depending on how you react to and find out about the muta stance.
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Italy12246 Posts
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On October 09 2012 14:25 ishida66 wrote:
Easy (I think) and fast question, how do I defend against 2 rax concussive shells on 1 gate FE opening?
Wait for an extra unit out or two out of your gateway letting your natural take some damage then attack and pull as many probes as needed.
You should have 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 1 sentry u can wait for another stalker but if he is building bunker u just pull 10-20 probe and defend.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 09 2012 17:02 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 14:25 ishida66 wrote:
Easy (I think) and fast question, how do I defend against 2 rax concussive shells on 1 gate FE opening? Wait for an extra unit out or two out of your gateway letting your natural take some damage then attack and pull as many probes as needed. You should have 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 1 sentry u can wait for another stalker but if he is building bunker u just pull 10-20 probe and defend.
You don't need to pull probes with a safe build if he doesn't pull scv's.
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EPT
