EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 344
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On October 05 2012 12:29 Sated wrote: Seeing the Robotics Facility does not let the Terran know what I'm going to be doing for the next few minutes. I could be playing a macro Colossus opening, a macro Archon opening, a 2 Base Colossus all-in, a 1 Base Colossus all-in, a 2 Base Immortal all-in, a 1 Base Immortal all-in, something involving Warp-Prisms etc. My opponent will still need to scan/scout my natural expansion to check it is there. My opponent will still need to build several Bunkers in case I pressure them with Immortals. My opponent will still need to scan/scout for Colossi so they know whether or not they need a second Starport for Vikings (or to cut Medivac production for Vikings). There are plenty of things that could be going on, even if they do know the Robotics Facility has been thrown down. You're making it out to be an entirely transparent build order after the Robotics Facility is revealed, but it isn't. Stuff still needs to be scouted for, and all that scouting will take place whether or not the Robotics Facility is seen. Only a bad Terran is going to see 2 Gases, a Gateway and a Cybernetics Core and freak the fuck out. At worst, they need to scout around their base for a proxy Stargate and build a Turret so that they can detect Dark Templar. Big. Fucking. Deal. Again, it's not about the Terran freaking out, it's about him seeing extremely relevant information and then reacting to it. It's not like he's going to see the Robo and know exactly what you're doing--but it severely narrows things down. You just invested 100 gas and 200 minerals into that building. It could have been 100 gas into something else. It could have been minerals invested into at least another gateway. Sure, there is still a good number of variations you could execute, but there were even more before he saw the Robo. EDIT: And your Poker example is trash. That Poker example applies more to stuff like Blink Stalker all-ins, where you absolutely need to hide what you're doing for as long as possible. Wow, that was a dick move. | ||
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
Unless you're going for a build that purposely deceives your opponent, a money scan or scouting can tell everything the Terran player needs to know to remove that particular capacity for surprise from your build. Now hiding that Robo and going for a Shock-Colossus-Drop in their mineral lines somewhere (think Whitera special tactics here) is a different deal all around, but even then if your Robo is scouted you lose the more simply advantages of your opponent not knowing you can produce observers which are vital for scouting. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
On October 06 2012 03:46 Chandra wrote: In terms of nexus first opening in PvZ, what's the relative difference in safety and economic advantage between a 15, 16 and 17 nexus? I usually 15 nexus when I scout standard play because as far as I'm aware it's safe against a 14 or later pool, but I'm wondering if starting to use a 16 or 17 nexus opening regularly is reliably safe enough to be worth it for the economic advantage. dunno about the others but a 17 Nexus - 17 forge - 17 pylon - 18 gate - 19 cannon is completely safe and optimal vs. any pool 14 and after. Im sure if you go 15 nexus and cut with a 15 forge it might be safer vs. things like a 12 pool maybe, but vs. anything earlier i'd imagine the results being the same across the board. Usually I just forge first vs. anything earlier than a 14 pool (you can tell based on timing, a 14 pool will start between 1:50 and 2:00 depending on how good the zerg is at drone stacking) and pylon block their hatchery | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
On October 05 2012 13:08 ineversmile wrote: Again, it's not about the Terran freaking out, it's about him seeing extremely relevant information and then reacting to it. It's not like he's going to see the Robo and know exactly what you're doing--but it severely narrows things down. You just invested 100 gas and 200 minerals into that building. It could have been 100 gas into something else. It could have been minerals invested into at least another gateway. Sure, there is still a good number of variations you could execute, but there were even more before he saw the Robo. Wow, that was a dick move. SC2 is a game of information and misinformation. Every little thing scouted crosses off a ton of possibilities that your opp. can be doing and allows you to prepare a better response via. process of elimination. Here's a list of things your opponent knows your NOT doing when he sees a robo in your base between the 6-8min mark *double nexus off 1 gate (fast 3 base) *anything involving a fast stargate *any heavy fast warp gate timing (6-8gate) *dt rushes *fast HT *fast charge/blink And not only is a 200-100 investment just a sign of that money spent, but it also says other things like, If im willing to invest 100 gas into this structure, then im probably mining more than 2 gasses since in order for a robo build to be as effective as possible i would need stalkers and/or sentries to compliment whatever units are coming out of the robotics whether it be a warp prism, an immortal, a colossus or even just an observer. Mining extra gas earlier on is also directly saying that your mining less minerals early on which further lessens the threat of a gateway centric timing attack (prior to something like colossus of course) Yeah there are things like immortal timings but these are so rare at the high level due to terrans opting for very heavy marine compositions earlier on in the game. The immortals would only serve to bust down the bunkers. But then scouting the robo would give away the timing for such an attack... dont brush off a scout as "he cant really tell what im doing from this" because seeing that robo at that time actually gives a ton of information away | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
The difference between the two builds is that the robo variant is safer against the vast majority of things, while the twilight variant can be stronger vs phoenix play and it allows you to followup more aggressively with a 5-6gate blink attack that can be quite deadly. | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
On October 06 2012 05:06 Teoita wrote: I don't know the specifics off the top of my head, but generally it's 2gas 3stalker rush->2more sentries from the gateways->Nexus->warp in 2 sentries and tech up; tech should start around 6 minutes. Make sure to scout well and cut probes at around 30 if he is onebasing, while going up to 4-5 gateways worth of production as with any other expand build in pvp. The difference between the two builds is that the robo variant is safer against the vast majority of things, while the twilight variant can be stronger vs phoenix play and it allows you to followup more aggressively with a 5-6gate blink attack that can be quite deadly. How do you deal with phoenix play if you go for the robo variant? this is the one major problem I have been having | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
I have basically been 1 gate expanding every game. Zealot-Stalker-Stalker. I've found that if my opponent is 2raxing (which I usually find out when I pressure with zealot/stalker and see 2 marines plus a marauder) I make a third stalker and add 1 gates (I cut probes here normally anyway, my decision is basically do I get 2 forges or 2 gates, and I always add a robo after that, and continue probe production after that) One game I did this and held the 2 rax agression quite convincingly, and my opponent told me that he didn't understand, and that 2 rax was desgined to kill 1 gate FE. He pointed out that me making a third stalker is bad, and that it should be a sentry. So my question is this: Is it okay to make a third stalker, or do I really need a sentry as my fourth unit when dealing with 2 rax agression? I'm also curious if it's good/bad to make it against a 1gate FE if I feel I can do some damage against just 1 bunker. (Sorry, looking back at my post it's a bit of a mess, hopefully it's clear enough) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On October 06 2012 07:30 Teoita wrote: He's wrong and terrible. 2rax only punishes greedy 1gate expands, not safe one gate expands like the variation you did, which is more or less this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136 I'll be sure to tell him that! I feel like sentries to hold your natural are only good once you have 3-4 forcefields, so is it safe to say that with any pressure it's best to make stalkers until my first full warp in? Thanks! | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
On October 06 2012 07:48 Clarity_nl wrote: I'll be sure to tell him that! I feel like sentries to hold your natural are only good once you have 3-4 forcefields, so is it safe to say that with any pressure it's best to make stalkers until my first full warp in? Thanks! I perfer the sentry over the stalker, I believe that zlot-stalker-stalker is the safer choice though, but getting out the early sentry might mean have 1 or 2 FF plus guardian shield when the 2 rax arrives. Keep in mind though I'll usually let them attack my Nexus while getting an extra unit out, or do a massive probe pull if there setting up bunkers. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
If the enemy is going 3 gate robo and pushes out early-midgame with one immortal in his army as well as standard zealot/stalker/sentry, and my phoenixes are at home w/ rest of my army, should I: a) just lift the immortal and have my other two phoenixes shoot him, or b) should I lift 1-2 stalkers as well to shrink his army even more so my ground army has more of an advantage? | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On October 06 2012 10:03 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: In PvP I do a 1-gate-stargate-expand build. I usually get 3 phoenixes for harassment and general army support before transitioning into robo myself. If the enemy is going 3 gate robo and pushes out early-midgame with one immortal in his army as well as standard zealot/stalker/sentry, and my phoenixes are at home w/ rest of my army, should I: a) just lift the immortal and have my other two phoenixes shoot him, or b) should I lift 1-2 stalkers as well to shrink his army even more so my ground army has more of an advantage? I think the first thing to do is assess the situation. How many grav lifts do you have? If one Phoenix has 2 lifts and the others have 1 lift each, then consider picking up 3 units and then picking up one unit after the cooldown finishes. 2 Phoenixes don't do enough DPS to an immortal to be worth picking it up for the damage initially, but if you only have 4 lifts then you just try to DPS it with the second grav lift. Check how many of each unit he has, and how much sentry energy he has. Does he rely on sentries? You could pick those up one at a time before the fight and then use that to your advantage, tactically. With very few forcefields for him, you could warp in a round of Zealots and then cage his units in, getting huge DPS out of the Melee. Your Phoenixes won't really have energy left for the fight if you do this, but it renders the immortal weak in a different way because it's fighting against Zealots with no escape path. And, think about how aggressive his push is. Can you handle it pretty clearly if he goes all-out? If he's planning to kite backwards because you're Zealot-heavy, you should think about using your lifts to pick up those ranged units, then force the rest of his army backwards, then drop the lifted units into a surround of Zealots. I think it's a lot more tactical and complicated than being cut-and-dry "lift this specifically." Sometimes lifting Zealots is the right choice. Sometimes the Sentries are right. It's so positional.... | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
For simplicity let's say T 1 rax FE and P 1 gate FE, no aggression from either. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On October 06 2012 09:29 jcroisdale wrote: I perfer the sentry over the stalker, I believe that zlot-stalker-stalker is the safer choice though, but getting out the early sentry might mean have 1 or 2 FF plus guardian shield when the 2 rax arrives. Keep in mind though I'll usually let them attack my Nexus while getting an extra unit out, or do a massive probe pull if there setting up bunkers. I almost always go for a single sentry after 2 stalkers. This one sentry helps to deal with 2rax pressure, early marine attacks, and hellions. It just feels safer against everything. I'm fairly certain 3 stalkers is not bad though. As long as you have a meat shield, stalkers are the units dealing DPS against an early 2rax. On October 06 2012 10:03 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: In PvP I do a 1-gate-stargate-expand build. I usually get 3 phoenixes for harassment and general army support before transitioning into robo myself. If the enemy is going 3 gate robo and pushes out early-midgame with one immortal in his army as well as standard zealot/stalker/sentry, and my phoenixes are at home w/ rest of my army, should I: a) just lift the immortal and have my other two phoenixes shoot him, or b) should I lift 1-2 stalkers as well to shrink his army even more so my ground army has more of an advantage? Almost always, you would just lift off the immortal and the stalkers. You have the option of trying to pick off sentries as well. Whether you lift the sentries or the stalkers first depends on the situation really, as well as the composition of your own army. Either way, you should generally beat this push down fairly easily and set yourself up for the midgame nicely. On October 06 2012 11:23 Clarity_nl wrote: In PvT, when would it be appropriate to go templar/archon instead of colossus? Or if the choice is stylistic, what are the differences? For simplicity let's say T 1 rax FE and P 1 gate FE, no aggression from either. I'm fairly new to protoss too, but I will give you my observations and opinions. Colossus: if you commit to colossus tech early, I feel 100% positive that you need to do some kind of early damage in order to justify the cost of getting them so early and delaying your upgrades. This generally means that you need to hide your robo and push very quickly after getting 3 colossus. If, however, you choose the more middle-of-the-road CreatorPrime style, you can just get a single colossus without range while going straight to double ups + templar tech. This is by far one of my favourite styles: http://day9.tv/d/Day9/tsl4-preview-creatorprime/ Templar: In the games I've played with the 1-gate triple nexus build, I've come to realize that it's impossible to defend all that area with colossus. You kind of HAVE to have templar early on to deal with drops and major attacks at the 3rd and natural. There are some interesting exceptions where templar builds are used for aggressive zealot/archoning on 2-base builds, but I think, for the most part, you should definitely go down the templar path if you want to do a triple nexus build. Gateway Units: There is a 3rd option which MC has been doing quite a bit recently. This is securing a 3rd base with just a ton of gateways and pure gateway units. You can go for fast double ups + blink, using blink to slow down or stall the initial MMM push. Afterwards, MC uses upwards of 8 gateways to deal with attacks while accessing templar and colossus tech. I think this is a really technical, difficult option, but it's definitely stylistic of MC. Hope that helps! | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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