EPT[G] PvZ Cheese: Dark Templar Expand Redux
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
This is exactly why I transition directly into a Robotics Facility. I should have enough Force Fields to buy myself time to get Immortals out on the field and at that point Sentry/Immortal/Stalker > Roaches. I've not experienced hardcore Roach timing-attacks enough to judge how that would pan out, but against some of the moderate Roach pressure responses I've seen I've never had a problem. I want to emphasize this. I don't believe it's possible to defend a roach counter if your opponent defends the dts perfectly. It has more to do with delayed sentries with low energy/low gas count rather than immortal timing. See Inca vs Nestea GSL finals. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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INTquovadis
Canada55 Posts
ty lol | ||
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ETisME
12283 Posts
Basically even if you don't show the unit count, as long as you have a late expo, any standard safe zerg opening will have evo chamber at good timing and will sac overlord in to check whether you are going for some sort of warp prism 4 gate or dts or stargate. Zerg doesn't necessary need to grab that quick third if you delay your natural for so long anyway. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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foutre
30 Posts
On September 14 2012 09:42 ETisME wrote: your previous thread has that comment about zerg will know you are upto something. Basically even if you don't show the unit count, as long as you have a late expo, any standard safe zerg opening will have evo chamber at good timing and will sac overlord in to check whether you are going for some sort of warp prism 4 gate or dts or stargate. Zerg doesn't necessary need to grab that quick third if you delay your natural for so long anyway. I think this is an awfully important point. As a diamond zerg, I've been seeing a lot of Protoss open dts or double stargate. In fact, whenever there is a late expansion or a gateway opening without an accompanying push, I've found it's absolutely safe to assume that my opponent is going one of the two and I preemptively throw down a spore at each base. I think cheese is all very well and good, but this has become a bit too common on ladder to be that viable, even with the tendency towards eco openings. I've found that the only dt builds that work do a better job of hiding the fact that they are rushing dts (by faking a normal expand, denying scouting, etc. etc.) Also, w/r/t transitioning from dts to star gate, I don't see how that makes sense. The point of a tech transition is that it takes the game in a direction that's good for you, or that your opponent isn't ready for. By forcing spores out of your opponent you're making them counter your own build... Especially if they're going for a roach max anyway. Whenever my opponents do this I can just defend with spores, take out the enemy nexus and tech with my roaches (just ignoring the tickly void rays) and then transition to hydra roach and end the game. | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
I have recently stopped building gateway/cybercore at the ramp at all, and just building them behind the minerals or around my nexus, to save on mining time, and to make 6 pools even easier to deal with. This isn't a problem because as you say no-one opens with speedlings before expand, so getting them out your base if they do for some reason build slow lings (which they never do), isn't a problem. Have you tried that? saves on minerals, and then i build my second pylon at the ramp as my worker scouts, and my second gate there leaving a archon allowed gap which 1 perfectly placed zealot can block. PS: Congrats on masters mate  Edit: First game i've played, made the build order up as i went along, although i think it was pretty smooth, the great thing is you have units so that you can take the watch tower so as to get a probe out to build i proxy pylon. Mine was 15 seconds late, and despite this he had no detection and GG. http://drop.sc/252338 So in answer to many of the comments, people seem to have forgotten the timing on the DT shrine from a gateway expand. Theoretically this shouldn't work, but because people are greedy it can do. Basically, to give an analogy for the people who haven't considered this: If no-one EVER did proxy raxes, there would be no reason to scout around at all, even though they COULD do it, becase no-one do it would be pointless to scout around and so it would be better not to. Same thing with zergs and evo chamber timings. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On September 14 2012 21:39 Sated wrote: The previous thread wasn't mine, someone else wrote that guide. I play Gate/Core openings a lot in the PvZ match-up and by far the most common response is attempting to take a fast third base using Speedlings or Roaches (or both) to defend against Zealot/Sentry pokes. The Zerg player cannot afford the time nor the resources to get an Evolution Chamber or a Lair if they're planning to do this, nor will they have enough time to get a Spore Crawler up at their third base even if they did go for an Evolution Chamber, all of which leaves them incredibly open to Dark Templar harassment. At the very least they lose their third base, which is definitely worth the cost of 2 Dark Templar when you compare it to the cost of the standard Zealot/Sentry poke that aims to do the exact same thing (cancel the third base). This is the opening that this build is designed to punish and this can be seen in my replay vs. AGǂZagitoutw. The safe option against a Gate/Core opening is for the Zerg player to go for some sort of 2 Base Lair build and I do see this fairly often when I open Gate/Core. The problem for the Zerg player in this situation is that it leaves them 2 Base vs. 2 Base against a Protoss opponent who hasn't sacrificed Probe production (relative to other Gate/Core openings) in order to hit their Dark Templar timing. Even if the Dark Templar don't do damage they will still scout what is going on and they will also give the Protoss map control, which means that the Protoss player should have plenty of time to react to what will likely be a Mutalisk follow-up. In neither of the above situations is the Protoss player economically far behind a standard Gate/Core Sentry Expand using this opening because they don't sacrifice Probe production to hit their Dark Templar timing. The real problem for a Protoss player using this opening is that they've sacrificed unit count to hit their Dark Templar timing. The reponse Protoss players need to fear when using this opening is not the safe, macro response because they can deal with that just fine if they respond correctly. The response Protoss players need to fear is a dedicated counter all-in. Air is a terrible transition after a Dark Templar opening since your Dark Templar already force the opponent to get Spore Crawlers, which happen to be really good against Protoss air units. Even if they didn't use Spore Crawlers to defend against your Dark Templar, you will still need either Blink Stalkers (vs. 2 Base Mutalisk) or a Robotics Facility (vs. 2/3 Base Roach) if you plan on getting through the mid-game without dying. I sometimes do that in PvR(Z) because I don't want my stuff at the top of my ramp in PvR(T) and PvR(P), but I personally feel much more comfortable walling off my ramp when I know the opponent is a Zerg. I think it all comes down to what you're personally comfortable with because it doesn't really make much difference in the long-run. And thanks! I've been straddling that high Diamond/low Masters threshold for a while now so it's nice to finally get promoted. I don't think I've gotten much better, I guess I'm just being rewarded for consistency I did agree with you before, but having done it over and over again, i haven't had a single game where afterward i felt i should have had a wall off in my main. It just makes it harder if they go mutas also. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On September 14 2012 21:47 Teoita wrote: The wall in the main does help if they do some wierd and silly ling allin or super fast baneling bust off 14/14. Other than that yeah, it's actually overrated and especially these days you can get by without a wall off. But these can be scouted with the probe. Please give me specific examples where i wouldn't just beat it by having early sentries like you do off a 2 gate expo? | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
On September 14 2012 08:18 monk. wrote: I want to emphasize this. I don't believe it's possible to defend a roach counter if your opponent defends the dts perfectly. It has more to do with delayed sentries with low energy/low gas count rather than immortal timing. See Inca vs Nestea GSL finals. I want to emphasize his emphasis of my point. This game is no where near as simple as ""Get a robo out in time for immortals to stop a roach push"" your not going to be able to make DT's AND make more than 2-3 sentries (Which wont have energy because you made them late to make dt's) AND get a robo out in good time AND have more than maybe 1 immortal by the time 30 roaches arrive at your base and boom. your dead. 1 base tech builds that rely on the zerg being caught off guard/unable to scout are just straight up bad at this point in the meta game. Any smart zerg will get an evo chamber + spore vs. any kind of 1 base double gas opening from P. This may work out for you in platinum league and below but I guarantee you this build would never succeed ever in higher levels of play On September 15 2012 00:06 Sated wrote: You're really underestimating the number of all-ins a Protoss can do after opening Gate/Core. Here are some that you missed:
The exact same thing was true of the old Dark Templar Expand as it also relied on tricking the opponent into thinking that you were opening with a Sentry-based expansion. All I've really done with this guide is update the Dark Templar Expand so that it works alongside the up-to-date 2 Gate Sentry Expand instead of the outdated 3 Gate Sentry Expand, and so that it also takes advantage of some of the metagame changes that have happened since the 3 Gate Sentry Expand was popular. The problem with your logic here is that ALL of the builds you mentioned can be defend with 2-3 hatch speedlings + a few queens and some spines. the zerg doesnt have to deviate much at all to defend the various all-ins from P which makes their follow up / w.e response they decide on after the fact that much more powerful. | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On September 15 2012 01:08 AGIANTSMURF wrote: I want to emphasize his emphasis of my point. This game is no where near as simple as ""Get a robo out in time for immortals to stop a roach push"" your not going to be able to make DT's AND make more than 2-3 sentries (Which wont have energy because you made them late to make dt's) AND get a robo out in good time AND have more than maybe 1 immortal by the time 30 roaches arrive at your base and boom. your dead. 1 base tech builds that rely on the zerg being caught off guard/unable to scout are just straight up bad at this point in the meta game. Any smart zerg will get an evo chamber + spore vs. any kind of 1 base double gas opening from P. This may work out for you in platinum league and below but I guarantee you this build would never succeed ever in higher levels of play Why do you say stuff like this? Saying it doesn't make it true, and both I and the OP are masters level protosses who say it can work and have tested it, as opposed to you, who is simply theory crafting and acting like anyone who ever goes dts must be terrible, and anyone who dies to it must be twice as bad. Get off your high horse and talk like a real person. Yes, if the DTs do 0 damage, and he goes for a roach counter, you may be in trouble, but every opening you do in starcraft is going to have its positives and negatives, this one has to do damage, or at least by time, so that you can get cannons/immortals. | ||
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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
This is extremely easy to scout for and prepare for. If they notice you don't forge expand and just take gas you will make your first evo for +1 and spores before dts warp. But hey I like free wins too. Why do you say stuff like this? Saying it doesn't make it true, and both I and the OP are masters level protosses who say it can work and have tested it, as opposed to you, who is simply theory crafting and acting like anyone who ever goes dts must be terrible, and anyone who dies to it must be twice as bad. Get off your high horse and talk like a real person. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On September 14 2012 21:39 Sated wrote: Air is a terrible transition after a Dark Templar opening since your Dark Templar already force the opponent to get Spore Crawlers, which happen to be really good against Protoss air units. Even if they didn't use Spore Crawlers to defend against your Dark Templar, you will still need either Blink Stalkers (vs. 2 Base Mutalisk) or a Robotics Facility (vs. 2/3 Base Roach) if you plan on getting through the mid-game without dying. you're personally comfortable with because it doesn't really make much difference in the long-run. Everyone says that, but I don't get it. I have no idea why everyone assumes you make void rays to rely on harassing a zerg that has spore crawlers, like that's the only foreseeable plan. Don't make any probes after you have 15. They aren't good at attacking. You have to be able to attack or defend! That's pretty much what I hear when I see people say that. If you open dts, you're going to be vulnerable to roach counters, unless... you have 1 or 2 units that can't be attacked by units that don't shoot at air. And, then, once they have enough units to ignore always being shot at by 2 units, you can start to use DTs if need be, to stall, since you can snipe their overseers. By simply making 2 void rays, you're able to accomplish a lot. You're able to scout their main. You're able to stop counter attacks. You're able to deny creep spread, and if you ever delay their third or kill it, the void rays will truly not enable them to get the third up in time to have a chance to recover. And, ofc, you're able to clear out any overlords that are on the map. It's complete map control, and killing overlords or forcing more spore crawlers is just money that essentially goes towards paying for your units. If you only need to make a few units to be safe, what does it allow you to do? Tech to things that kill stuff once your period of invincibility is over. I'd rather be making immortals, colossi and a mothership than massing sentries and stalkers just to live. Have fun with that. I'm sure that's a lot stronger come mid-late game. | ||
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ins(out)side
220 Posts
The big thing with my (I mean, SaSe's) variation of DT expand was to keep as many DT's alive as possible no matter what. Don't sacrifice them to kill off things like evo chambers and such. MAYBE sacrifice one or two to kill the natural or 3rd hatch but you want them alive to warp into archons. Then you get like 3 or 4 archons, a shitload of zealots, and as many stalkers as you can handle and usually go and end the game. Its not unlike what you would do after going DT's in a PvP and you see them going for robo tech. Of course since Diamond league I've not been doing builds like this and I've got a hankering for some DT's and BM! Thanks again for the guide EDIT: The 3 gate FE/Dark Shrine build I mention above I got from watching SaSe's stream several months ago. Just had to give credit where credit is due. | ||
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