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Sure, I am all in a favor for the occasional cheese, but I like my risky strategies to have more ways to hide information, so I can have a better chance to trick my opponent. With this 1-gate DT openings, in the current metagame, it seems like zerg has to do basic scouting and perform a basic textbook response, so I don't like it very much.
That said, I could see it working if P proxy hides the DT tech, show an extra sentry (even if it delayes the tech) and/or gets a stalker to deny overlord scouting. A faster nexus with less zealots could work as well, I suppose, even if it is harder to hold... risking to show the zealots is such a gigantic giveaway.
In other words, I think the OP strategy is close to the most optimal way to get faster DT's and expand, but since this strategy relies on your opponent making a misread (it is very hard to transition if you don't do a ton of damage), it could be better to make it less resource efficient and more tricksy.
In PvP openings, for instance, you can do close to no damage with DT's and still have a shot (depending on your opponent BO), but in PvZ it won't work that way since all popular Z openings could punish this.
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Hello,
I have a bug when i open replays.
Some elements on the map are missing. Like minerals, buildings..
Do you have the same problem?
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As a zerg if I see toss gate open I just go 2 base with detection and ling muta and watch his expo,if he takes a 3rd I pounce, if he stays on 2 base with gateway/core opening I can always expect dts, ALWAYS, its very easy to predict it and is very fun to slaughter this build. [But yes you are correct the zerg must scout your gate/core insted of FFE] Also have noticed protoss who do this don't have cannons to stop any mutalisk play harrass which is very very effective against this.
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On September 14 2012 08:18 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 03:07 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
the problem with a build like this arises when the zerg is smart and defends your dt's, then follows up with a large roach push (with overseers of course) and your sentry count is abysmally low so you just flat out die. This is exactly why I transition directly into a Robotics Facility. I should have enough Force Fields to buy myself time to get Immortals out on the field and at that point Sentry/Immortal/Stalker > Roaches. I've not experienced hardcore Roach timing-attacks enough to judge how that would pan out, but against some of the moderate Roach pressure responses I've seen I've never had a problem. I want to emphasize this. I don't believe it's possible to defend a roach counter if your opponent defends the dts perfectly. It has more to do with delayed sentries with low energy/low gas count rather than immortal timing. See Inca vs Nestea GSL finals.
This is because the map pool back then had open areas like in xelnaga caverns or really big chokes leading to the natural. On todays maps, you can defend with a handful of sentries on maps like Ohana and cloud kingdom.
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Italy12246 Posts
Two of the games of Inca vs Nestea were played on Terminus and Tal'darim Altar...
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On October 15 2012 04:29 Teoita wrote:
Two of the games of Inca vs Nestea were played on Terminus and Tal'darim Altar...
Which both have incredibly large walloffs or walloffs at the Nexus to help defend. FFEing on TDA was always horrible, I don't know any Protoss who liked that map on release or even to this day. I don't know if you've ever played on Terminus, but the map is absolutely huge and still is even with today's map pool.
Inca did this build 4 times in a row and NesTea absolutely stomped it. I think that should be enough evidence to know that anyone who has seen those games will know how to crush this build. As much as I like DTs, having a separate building for them entirely just destroys any good anti-roach transitions if you want sentries as well.
EDIT: Also if you're going to do this build you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT let the Z see 3 zealots. As soon as he sees that there should be alarm bells the size of Mt. Everest going off in his head that he's facing something somewhat cheesy and he should get detection and anti-air immediately.
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Italy12246 Posts
The area in front of the nat of CK for example isn't that much bigger than Terminus tbh, and the rush distances are far longer. I was just pointing out how his point on being able to defend roach counters is still true on modern maps, given it worked on Terminus.
I agree on not showing the zealots, i actually used to get a stalker when gateway expanding, stargate expanding or doing this to deny scouting.
And yeah, of course this build will get stomped if you do it 4 times in a row, as i posted before this is not a standard macro build...and guess what, there's "cheese" in the name of the thread.
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On October 15 2012 06:58 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 22:34 DontGiveUp wrote:
... but in PvZ it won't work that way since all popular Z openings could punish this. As stated several times in this thread, it's really only a massive Roach counter that scares me when I use this build and I personally believe that I can only hold that type of response on maps with a 2 Force Field ramp at the natural. An economic response doesn't scare me because I'm not cutting that much economy relative to a standard 2 Gate Sentry Expand and because I'm also ensuring that the opponent can't take a third base until they have mobile detection.
What I meant is that zergs get economing openings with timely evo chamber / lair, that he can rush or delay base on scouting. The roach mass is a reaction after he saw your building, that all popular openings can achieve if they take little damage. Sorry if I wasn`t clear.
I really like the idea of going stalker(s) to deny info or sell other builds, as you pointed out. Stalker expand is safe in most maps if zerg goes 14 hatch 16 pool, which is the most popular opening right now. Seed does that from time to time.
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This build is fun and cheesy. I think it's actually a really viable build to do in a BOx situation, especially if you're on like the 3rd game of the series and you opened a gate expand the previous 2 games and did completely different transitions, I think it MAY catch your opponent off guard. Sometimes making a build obvious, makes it the most lethal, if you do 2 different variations before doing this build, the opponent may be scared to do what you would normally want to do against something like this out of fear of what might happen if it turns out that they were wrong about what to expect.
I may not have articulated that explanation very well, but hopefully people get what I mean. In a BOx series, this build would be nice provided you take the necessary precautions to make it effective.
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I really doubt most zergs will delay tech if you open gateway gas expand, I mean I am a grandmaster zerg and I have always open 14 pool, 16 decision, hatch if you go forge, gas queen if you open gateway cyber. :/ This is quite a bad opening, you are relying on your opponent misreading the situation, pretty gimmicky.
But then again, I am sure there will be people who are over confident and this build would punish them I suppose.
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On October 15 2012 10:04 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 09:31 ImNightmare wrote:
I really doubt most zergs will delay tech if you open gateway gas expand, I mean I am a grandmaster zerg and I have always open 14 pool, 16 decision, hatch if you go forge, gas queen if you open gateway cyber. :/ This is quite a bad opening, you are relying on your opponent misreading the situation, pretty gimmicky.
But then again, I am sure there will be people who are over confident and this build would punish them I suppose. The title says "Cheese" for a reason. The thread says that this relies on the opponent reacting badly for a reason. Etc.
There was no cheese in the title when I clicked on it. maybe op edited it or something.
Edit: oh shit you are the op, while I didn't see any cheese when I clicked on it the last time.
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On October 16 2012 17:47 ImNightmare wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 10:04 Sated wrote:On October 15 2012 09:31 ImNightmare wrote:
I really doubt most zergs will delay tech if you open gateway gas expand, I mean I am a grandmaster zerg and I have always open 14 pool, 16 decision, hatch if you go forge, gas queen if you open gateway cyber. :/ This is quite a bad opening, you are relying on your opponent misreading the situation, pretty gimmicky.
But then again, I am sure there will be people who are over confident and this build would punish them I suppose. The title says "Cheese" for a reason. The thread says that this relies on the opponent reacting badly for a reason. Etc. There was no cheese in the title when I clicked on it. maybe op edited it or something. Edit: oh shit you are the op, while I didn't see any cheese when I clicked on it the last time.
It was there the whole time.
People are referring the the timing as "text book" for zerg detection, and yet it just doesn't seem the case for me. Maybe zergs have forgotten gateway timed DTs? Maybe i am good at hiding it? I don't know, but it seems to be working.
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On October 16 2012 21:50 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 17:47 ImNightmare wrote:On October 15 2012 10:04 Sated wrote:On October 15 2012 09:31 ImNightmare wrote:
I really doubt most zergs will delay tech if you open gateway gas expand, I mean I am a grandmaster zerg and I have always open 14 pool, 16 decision, hatch if you go forge, gas queen if you open gateway cyber. :/ This is quite a bad opening, you are relying on your opponent misreading the situation, pretty gimmicky.
But then again, I am sure there will be people who are over confident and this build would punish them I suppose. The title says "Cheese" for a reason. The thread says that this relies on the opponent reacting badly for a reason. Etc. There was no cheese in the title when I clicked on it. maybe op edited it or something. Edit: oh shit you are the op, while I didn't see any cheese when I clicked on it the last time. It was there the whole time. People are referring the the timing as "text book" for zerg detection, and yet it just doesn't seem the case for me. Maybe zergs have forgotten gateway timed DTs? Maybe i am good at hiding it? I don't know, but it seems to be working.
I would say its thanks to the immortal sentry all in. 3 spores means 3 less drones with 200+ minerals lost, 200 minerals is about 8 lings minus the mining time from the 3 drones, it actually affects a lot so dts are quite good this days as a meta game breaker
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This build highly depends on your opponent to make scouting mistakes. As a mid-high master player in EU i tried it few times and didn't really like it. I wouldn't recommend anyone.
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Im not sure why people keep saying this wont work because this and that. Obviously this wont work if prepared for correctly :p. The asumption OP makes, and the reasoning behind most gate - core before expand openings is that the zerg doesnt respond correctly. Its metagame nothing else =).
As a mid master zerg I must say Ive gotten suprised quite a few times when seeing a none forge expo build due to pretty damn late scouting. Ive never lost to a onebase timing after it though but I find myself in a small state of confusion and apparently have forgotten how to properly prepare for all eventualities and have several times gotten behind due to poor droning and subsequently lost in the mid to lategame. Something that rarely happens vs a forgeexpo.
Not saying that this is the norm though, Since then ive started scouting a bit earlier and now I wouldnt say gate-core openings are good vs me anymore but being so used to forge expo vs 3hatch mixing in some different types of gas expands is pretty smart imo. Although using a dt expand as your standard PvZ build probably is a bad idea if you ever have want to play a BoX series against a zerg :p. Its kinda like those zergs 100% 6-7-8pooling vs toss... well, u might win some, but youll never actually improve =).
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EPT
