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On September 15 2012 01:57 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 21:39 Sated wrote:On September 14 2012 10:00 playa wrote:
I like dt into void ray. Ideally, try to keep it at 2 base vs 2 base for a while. I rarely ever make sentries in the early game, as I would prefer that, that gas goes to something that kills things. Even if they manage to get 3 quick bases with ridic fast spores, their lair is so late that you have map control forever. Personally, I never really care if someone knows what's coming. That said, put me down as fan of those openings. Air is a terrible transition after a Dark Templar opening since your Dark Templar already force the opponent to get Spore Crawlers, which happen to be really good against Protoss air units. Even if they didn't use Spore Crawlers to defend against your Dark Templar, you will still need either Blink Stalkers (vs. 2 Base Mutalisk) or a Robotics Facility (vs. 2/3 Base Roach) if you plan on getting through the mid-game without dying. you're personally comfortable with because it doesn't really make much difference in the long-run. Everyone says that, but I don't get it. I have no idea why everyone assumes you make void rays to rely on harassing a zerg that has spore crawlers, like that's the only foreseeable plan. Don't make any probes after you have 15. They aren't good at attacking. You have to be able to attack or defend! That's pretty much what I hear when I see people say that. If you open dts, you're going to be vulnerable to roach counters, unless... you have 1 or 2 units that can't be attacked by units that don't shoot at air. And, then, once they have enough units to ignore always being shot at by 2 units, you can start to use DTs if need be, to stall, since you can snipe their overseers. By simply making 2 void rays, you're able to accomplish a lot. You're able to scout their main. You're able to stop counter attacks. You're able to deny creep spread, and if you ever delay their third or kill it, the void rays will truly not enable them to get the third up in time to have a chance to recover. And, ofc, you're able to clear out any overlords that are on the map. It's complete map control, and killing overlords or forcing more spore crawlers is just money that essentially goes towards paying for your units. If you only need to make a few units to be safe, what does it allow you to do? Tech to things that kill stuff once your period of invincibility is over. I'd rather be making immortals, colossi and a mothership than massing sentries and stalkers just to live. Have fun with that. I'm sure that's a lot stronger come mid-late game.
You make a good point, Void rays can be good for hold roach counters, although the mondragon equation might come into play here if you do zero damage vs a fast 3 hatching pool who decides to go mass roach with overlord drop for instance, i reckon you would probably straight up die. But it would all depend on building positioning etc.
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 15 2012 01:57 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 21:39 Sated wrote:On September 14 2012 10:00 playa wrote:
I like dt into void ray. Ideally, try to keep it at 2 base vs 2 base for a while. I rarely ever make sentries in the early game, as I would prefer that, that gas goes to something that kills things. Even if they manage to get 3 quick bases with ridic fast spores, their lair is so late that you have map control forever. Personally, I never really care if someone knows what's coming. That said, put me down as fan of those openings. Air is a terrible transition after a Dark Templar opening since your Dark Templar already force the opponent to get Spore Crawlers, which happen to be really good against Protoss air units. Even if they didn't use Spore Crawlers to defend against your Dark Templar, you will still need either Blink Stalkers (vs. 2 Base Mutalisk) or a Robotics Facility (vs. 2/3 Base Roach) if you plan on getting through the mid-game without dying. you're personally comfortable with because it doesn't really make much difference in the long-run. Everyone says that, but I don't get it. I have no idea why everyone assumes you make void rays to rely on harassing a zerg that has spore crawlers, like that's the only foreseeable plan. Don't make any probes after you have 15. They aren't good at attacking. You have to be able to attack or defend! That's pretty much what I hear when I see people say that. If you open dts, you're going to be vulnerable to roach counters, unless... you have 1 or 2 units that can't be attacked by units that don't shoot at air. And, then, once they have enough units to ignore always being shot at by 2 units, you can start to use DTs if need be, to stall, since you can snipe their overseers. By simply making 2 void rays, you're able to accomplish a lot. You're able to scout their main. You're able to stop counter attacks. You're able to deny creep spread, and if you ever delay their third or kill it, the void rays will truly not enable them to get the third up in time to have a chance to recover. And, ofc, you're able to clear out any overlords that are on the map. It's complete map control, and killing overlords or forcing more spore crawlers is just money that essentially goes towards paying for your units. If you only need to make a few units to be safe, what does it allow you to do? Tech to things that kill stuff once your period of invincibility is over. I'd rather be making immortals, colossi and a mothership than massing sentries and stalkers just to live. Have fun with that. I'm sure that's a lot stronger come mid-late game.
Void rays don't kill roaches nearly fast enough to protect you from a MASS roach counter. They are good vs low unit count roach aggression (say roach ling allin), but when there's dozens of roaches killing your stuff it doesn't matter if you have 2 void rays in the air doing their thing. Stargate is also a pretty dead tech path, since as usual p needs some aoe or at the very least in pvz, a well upgraded blink stalker/immortal/sentry army.
Also, later on in the game they also become useless as infestors or muta/ling hit the field.
regarding the build: i don't think it's that good of a "standard" ladder build, but it's definitely nice to throw it in there in a BoX, say in a playhem or something like that.
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On September 15 2012 02:25 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 01:57 playa wrote:On September 14 2012 21:39 Sated wrote:On September 14 2012 10:00 playa wrote:
I like dt into void ray. Ideally, try to keep it at 2 base vs 2 base for a while. I rarely ever make sentries in the early game, as I would prefer that, that gas goes to something that kills things. Even if they manage to get 3 quick bases with ridic fast spores, their lair is so late that you have map control forever. Personally, I never really care if someone knows what's coming. That said, put me down as fan of those openings. Air is a terrible transition after a Dark Templar opening since your Dark Templar already force the opponent to get Spore Crawlers, which happen to be really good against Protoss air units. Even if they didn't use Spore Crawlers to defend against your Dark Templar, you will still need either Blink Stalkers (vs. 2 Base Mutalisk) or a Robotics Facility (vs. 2/3 Base Roach) if you plan on getting through the mid-game without dying. you're personally comfortable with because it doesn't really make much difference in the long-run. Everyone says that, but I don't get it. I have no idea why everyone assumes you make void rays to rely on harassing a zerg that has spore crawlers, like that's the only foreseeable plan. Don't make any probes after you have 15. They aren't good at attacking. You have to be able to attack or defend! That's pretty much what I hear when I see people say that. If you open dts, you're going to be vulnerable to roach counters, unless... you have 1 or 2 units that can't be attacked by units that don't shoot at air. And, then, once they have enough units to ignore always being shot at by 2 units, you can start to use DTs if need be, to stall, since you can snipe their overseers. By simply making 2 void rays, you're able to accomplish a lot. You're able to scout their main. You're able to stop counter attacks. You're able to deny creep spread, and if you ever delay their third or kill it, the void rays will truly not enable them to get the third up in time to have a chance to recover. And, ofc, you're able to clear out any overlords that are on the map. It's complete map control, and killing overlords or forcing more spore crawlers is just money that essentially goes towards paying for your units. If you only need to make a few units to be safe, what does it allow you to do? Tech to things that kill stuff once your period of invincibility is over. I'd rather be making immortals, colossi and a mothership than massing sentries and stalkers just to live. Have fun with that. I'm sure that's a lot stronger come mid-late game. You make a good point, Void rays can be good for hold roach counters, although the mondragon equation might come into play here if you do zero damage vs a fast 3 hatching pool who decides to go mass roach with overlord drop for instance, i reckon you would probably straight up die. But it would all depend on building positioning etc.
I'm not sure if I can allay your fears or not. I got good news for you and bad news. The good news is I've only seen 2 players attempt a mass roach drop versus a void ray opening that is killing their overlords. The bad news is, there's not enough data to go on to say it's easy to stop. You would have to rely on there being a good reason that no one ever attempts it.
I have lost to it on shakuras before. Once hydras are made, you become a lot more concerned with impending attacks on your natural, so it does open up the possibility. I get worker rushed more than I get dropped... so the surprise element is def a 10. But, even then, it's so map dependent, and, well, Shakuras probably should even be a played map.
As for mass roaches being hard to stop with void rays, sure. But throw in dts that do ridic damage, and the last thing you're worried about is roaches. Dt, void ray, immortal... Zerg players can't make enough roaches. If only zerg wouldn't make a unit that everything toss has counters. That's a big fear of mine. I get so nervous when it comes to deciding which counter unit I want to make. So many options. It's hard at times.
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On September 15 2012 01:27 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 01:08 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On September 14 2012 08:18 monk. wrote:On June 08 2012 03:07 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
the problem with a build like this arises when the zerg is smart and defends your dt's, then follows up with a large roach push (with overseers of course) and your sentry count is abysmally low so you just flat out die. This is exactly why I transition directly into a Robotics Facility. I should have enough Force Fields to buy myself time to get Immortals out on the field and at that point Sentry/Immortal/Stalker > Roaches. I've not experienced hardcore Roach timing-attacks enough to judge how that would pan out, but against some of the moderate Roach pressure responses I've seen I've never had a problem. I want to emphasize this. I don't believe it's possible to defend a roach counter if your opponent defends the dts perfectly. It has more to do with delayed sentries with low energy/low gas count rather than immortal timing. See Inca vs Nestea GSL finals. I want to emphasize his emphasis of my point. This game is no where near as simple as ""Get a robo out in time for immortals to stop a roach push"" your not going to be able to make DT's AND make more than 2-3 sentries (Which wont have energy because you made them late to make dt's) AND get a robo out in good time AND have more than maybe 1 immortal by the time 30 roaches arrive at your base and boom. your dead. 1 base tech builds that rely on the zerg being caught off guard/unable to scout are just straight up bad at this point in the meta game. Any smart zerg will get an evo chamber + spore vs. any kind of 1 base double gas opening from P.
This may work out for you in platinum league and below but I guarantee you this build would never succeed ever in higher levels of play Why do you say stuff like this? Saying it doesn't make it true, and both I and the OP are masters level protosses who say it can work and have tested it, as opposed to you, who is simply theory crafting and acting like anyone who ever goes dts must be terrible, and anyone who dies to it must be twice as bad. Get off your high horse and talk like a real person. Yes, if the DTs do 0 damage, and he goes for a roach counter, you may be in trouble, but every opening you do in starcraft is going to have its positives and negatives, this one has to do damage, or at least by time, so that you can get cannons/immortals.
The OP just got into Masters this season, I wouldn't say his theorycrafting is as good as AGIANTSMURF or .monk (blue poster mind you, he knows what he's talking about), who's a much higher rated player overall in the NA compared to someone who just broke into Masters this season. I'm not saying Sated or your opinion's are wrong, but I'll take someone who has played the game at a much higher level and has more experience than someone who is trying to bring back a build that in this current state of the metagame, simply doesn't work well.
There is no possible way for you to defend a roach counter with 3 sentries to buy time for maybe 1-2 immortals if the DT tech completely fails. The zerg can see your tech failed and knows, even with 3 sentries (which an incredibly low amount of energy at this point in the game) will not be able to stall long enough for immortals to get out. You simply die.
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I actually open DTs against Z quite regularly. PvZ is even my best matchup statistically, but oh boy is it cheesy the way I play it.
I agree with the OP, 14 pool / 16 hatch really isn't that good against gate/core openers. The issue is that any zerg should realize you're on one base and throw down an evo before you have any chance of doing anything with your DTs.
So, I do it a little different than the op. Also, more cheesy as said. I open 13 gate as usual, but cut probes briefly in order to chrono out 2 Zealots before the core finishes, then chrono a stalker out. I attack with the 2 zealots and my scouting probe, and have the stalker rallied in. When Zergs see the 3 early gateway units and a probe, they're forced to react in some way. I am of course going up to 3 gates and a dark shine behind the poke. I take a hilariously greedy expansion while waiting for my Dark Shrine to complete, but if they built enough lings to cancel that means they have no detection. Also, with a wall at the top of my ramp, they have zero chance of making it into my main with pure lings. If they don't force a cancel, you have a free expansion and DTs warping in at the same time.
I don't want to say this build is *good.* It's not. At all. The DTs are late, the expansion is crazy risky, and if it gets scouted you're playing from way behind. All that said though, I've used this build enough to have it down to a science, and I win the vast majority of my PvZs. Don't use it every game, but it's a pretty good cheese to throw into the mix when you get tired of FFEing every game.
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When I use to play which was a few months ago I use to do a dt expand against zerg all the time and had a pretty high win rate with it too. I would go with a 12 gas 14 gate opening. With getting such an early gas I was able to get dts out pretty quick and get sentries at the same time to deny scouting. So to the zerg it looked like I was just doing a three gate expand. I don't remember my timings for the other buildings but it was something at 100% gate I would get core then around 18 or 20 food I would get second gas at 100% core I would get twilight council before even getting warp gate, as soon as twilight was down I would start warp gate. As soon as twilight council was done I would put down my dark shrine followed up with two more gates right after dark shrine. I would cut probes so I can put a nexus down. I would place a proxy pylon near zergs base. Then my warp gate my three gates and dark shrine would finish at the same time for a nice timing. I would warp in two dts by zergs base and one by my base in case of an attack. I would usually do some good damage sometimes even win the game right there. I would usually follow this up with a 6 gate +2 blink all in or some sort or other variation of it. This build only really works of you can keep your dark shrine hidden doesn't really matter of they spot your twilight council just make it seem like your going for blink all in. I would CB my council just to sell it that I was lol. I did this build in high diamond low masters on NA server. But like I said I haven't played in a long time so I don't remember timings that well. Wish I had a computer I miss playing so much lol.
Sorry for wall of text. Writing this while at work on my phone so couldn't really organize it.
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I really think that one of the most viable ways to apply this kind of cheesy all-in build is to make it more all in. By that I mean, instead of trying to go for some kind of tech route AFTER having invested the insane amount of gas into DT's, utilize your ability to make archons.
As with a DT expand or rush in PvP, the option of going into Archons and zealots makes for a really strong push even if your DT's did very little damage. Particularly if your opponent goes robo tech and makes immortals.
In terms of trying to do the same thing with Zerg, I think that it can make for a viable way to end the game or at least get you guys on the same number of bases. I've seen SaSe do it against Korean zergs but that was many moons ago.
With todays roach heavy builds, one can assume that by the time you warp some archons and enough zealots to really do damage there will be enough roaches to hold. While this is true most of the time in the higher leagues, I find I can get away with a win in spite of failing to execute the push early enough in the league I currently reside =) Additionally, if you got your expansion up at a decent time and you manage to have guys on all 4 gases for a little while before the push you can start supporting with some stalkers.
Honestly, with Archon support and some crafty micro you can punish A moving zergs who get overly focused on getting the archons. Even without crafty micro, zealots and archons together aren't terrible against roaches. They certainly aren't amazing but certainly better than just zealots.
Truth be told, you don't really need your opponent to make HUGE mistakes in order to benefit and do damage with your DT's. When I would do a similar build I would take 2 DT's to one location just in case there was a single spore there. With more than one DT hacking on it, them spores go down pretty quick, If I take out the spore at say his natural, and the single DT that I sent into his main also meets a spore, then I just pull the third guy down to the nat and go for drones or try and snipe the hatch. Prolly focus on the later. This is just a smaller example of how a player might be staying with the "current metagame" but that doesn't mean he is without vulnerability. I.E. yeah he built a spore, but if I snipe it with 2 DT's I might get a bunch of drones and/or a hatch.
If theres anything the pros constantly show me time and time again its how they get ahead by recognizing and capitalizing on the most minute of details. We can do this in our own newbie way. All in all, for most players I think having a build like this to cycle into your ladder play makes you a better and more more informed player. Its all the better for when playing Best Of's with your buddies or in tourneys and you want to catch them off guard.
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This build has a lot of problems, coming from ~1350 Master Protoss last season.
You are telegraphing the fact that you are up to something crazy (it's obviously either DTs or Stargate) if they see you making only Zealots and mining from 2 gas, since Robo does not require that much gas on 1 base, and you always need sentries to make a Robo opener work. Nearly every Zerg that understands what Protoss is capable of would throw up blind spores without even seeing your Dark Shrine, so the DTs would very likely do negligible damage if they saw your unit count and especially it's composition.
Besides that, you have only Zealots.. an overlord could easily float in and see everything since you have nothing to shoot it down.
I also don't understand what's supposed to stop a speedling opener from cancelling your Nexus at least once, other than you hoping that they pull their army home to deal with DTs and then not immediately counter once they get an overseer across the map. Queens along with spores by themselves could easily hold the 2 DTs off, and as far as I understand, extra queens vs gateway openers are common since a Stargate opener on 1 base is a possibility.
This is actually the most coinflippy DT expand I've seen. DT expanding in PvP and PvT are safer than this since you can at least deny scouting of your geysers for a while (and a quicker Nexus is viable with only a few units) against the other races.
You would very likely have much more success opening Zealot, Stalker, Zealot and putting a little bit of pressure on if they aren't mining gas (and every Zerg should mine gas vs gateway openers anyway). But at least the Stalker wouldn't make it blatantly obvious that you are opening either DTs or Stargate on 1 base, and you could even use the Stalker to shoot a curious overlord down.
So, basically, this build relies on the Zerg player not understanding what is going on, and taking a lot of damage from DTs. It can work, but it's a total coinflip. If your DTs do no damage, you should die shortly afterward or at least be way behind on economy for a long time.
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On September 15 2012 12:29 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
This build has a lot of problems, coming from ~1350 Master Protoss last season.
You are telegraphing the fact that you are up to something crazy (it's obviously either DTs or Stargate) if they see you making only Zealots and mining from 2 gas, since Robo does not require that much gas on 1 base, and you always need sentries to make a Robo opener work. Nearly every Zerg that understands what Protoss is capable of would throw up blind spores without even seeing your Dark Shrine, so the DTs would very likely do negligible damage if they saw your unit count and especially it's composition.
Besides that, you have only Zealots.. an overlord could easily float in and see everything since you have nothing to shoot it down.
I also don't understand what's supposed to stop a speedling opener from cancelling your Nexus at least once, other than you hoping that they pull their army home to deal with DTs and then not immediately counter once they get an overseer across the map. Queens along with spores by themselves could easily hold the 2 DTs off, and as far as I understand, extra queens vs gateway openers are common since a Stargate opener on 1 base is a possibility.
This is actually the most coinflippy DT expand I've seen. DT expanding in PvP and PvT are safer than this since you can at least deny scouting of your geysers for a while (and a quicker Nexus is viable with only a few units) against the other races.
You would very likely have much more success opening Zealot, Stalker, Zealot and putting a little bit of pressure on if they aren't mining gas (and every Zerg should mine gas vs gateway openers anyway). But at least the Stalker wouldn't make it blatantly obvious that you are opening either DTs or Stargate on 1 base, and you could even use the Stalker to shoot a curious overlord down.
So, basically, this build relies on the Zerg player not understanding what is going on, and taking a lot of damage from DTs. It can work, but it's a total coinflip. If your DTs do no damage, you should die shortly afterward or at least be way behind on economy for a long time.
I hear what you're saying but the zany thing is, I see Zerg players totally disregarding the gateway openers and just going for standard 3 hatch before gas anyway. Its fucking nuts in my opinion but its happening more and more. I can't say for Masters league but certainly in Diamond and below I've seen them just saying "ah..fuck it" and its just plain zany cause like you said, they should be mining gas if they see a gateway expand. I mean, the way I used to understand the meta-game was that if you went for some kind of gate expand you could expect zerg to respond by speedling expanding in some way.
I guess you could say we're seeing a sort of back lash to the prevalence of what some have called the "Stephano style" roach builds. At the lower levels, players commit to this build almost every single game they play without taking notice or caring if Toss gateway expands.
If I'm not mistaken I think the OP was experiencing something similar with Zerg opponents?
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I hear what you're saying but the zany thing is, I see Zerg players totally disregarding the gateway openers and just going for standard 3 hatch before gas anyway. Its fucking nuts in my opinion but its happening more and more. I can't say for Masters league but certainly in Diamond and below I've seen them just saying "ah..fuck it" and its just plain zany cause like you said, they should be mining gas if they see a gateway expand. I mean, the way I used to understand the meta-game was that if you went for some kind of gate expand you could expect zerg to respond by speedling expanding in some way.
I guess you could say we're seeing a sort of back lash to the prevalence of what some have called the "Stephano style" roach builds. At the lower levels, players commit to this build almost every single game they play without taking notice or caring if Toss gateway expands.
If I'm not mistaken I think the OP was experiencing something similar with Zerg opponents?
The beautiful thing about TL strategy is that good threads work for every skill level. I think this build really falls off around low Masters, where people really start to understand the game thoroughly and will punish stuff like this.
At Diamond and below, tons of things work that shouldn't, just because play is so imperfect. No offense of course, I just thought that I'd add my thoughts from my skill level, and the fact that I'm kind of a PvZ connoisseur. At my level, this would maybe work about 20% of the time, and if I followed the build exactly, if the DTs failed, I'd lose about 85-90% of the games played, regardless of my personal skill level.
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On September 15 2012 15:28 SidewinderSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +I hear what you're saying but the zany thing is, I see Zerg players totally disregarding the gateway openers and just going for standard 3 hatch before gas anyway. Its fucking nuts in my opinion but its happening more and more. I can't say for Masters league but certainly in Diamond and below I've seen them just saying "ah..fuck it" and its just plain zany cause like you said, they should be mining gas if they see a gateway expand. I mean, the way I used to understand the meta-game was that if you went for some kind of gate expand you could expect zerg to respond by speedling expanding in some way.
I guess you could say we're seeing a sort of back lash to the prevalence of what some have called the "Stephano style" roach builds. At the lower levels, players commit to this build almost every single game they play without taking notice or caring if Toss gateway expands.
If I'm not mistaken I think the OP was experiencing something similar with Zerg opponents? The beautiful thing about TL strategy is that good threads work for every skill level. I think this build really falls off around low Masters, where people really start to understand the game thoroughly and will punish stuff like this. At Diamond and below, tons of things work that shouldn't, just because play is so imperfect. No offense of course, I just thought that I'd add my thoughts from my skill level, and the fact that I'm kind of a PvZ connoisseur. At my level, this would maybe work about 20% of the time, and if I followed the build exactly, if the DTs failed, I'd lose about 85-90% of the games played, regardless of my personal skill level.
Unfortunately this stuff does work at mid masters level (i was ~1350 at the end of last season also) and players DO go blind three hatch a lot of the time against my gateway openings, and underestimate how early DTs will be arriving. I've only tested this build a few times so far, and i won all three, but 2 of them were wonky games, and one of them i won straight up with the initial DTs, so once i've played around with it some more i'll let you know 
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Personally, seeing a fast third makes me uneasy, as it puts a burden on you to do damage. It's not exactly a build that denies scouting, so you shouldn't expect to be able to kill the third. I usually try to pylon the third or w/e to slow it down. I want to encourage them to stay on 2 bases, because I don't want to take a quick third. 2 base vs 2 base is ideal. No burden to do much of anything but tech up. Ofc, if they take a third and you snipe it and then snipe some drones in their main, then that's dream like. But, since I believe that is largely dependent on the ability of the opponent, it's not something I want to rely on.
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On September 15 2012 01:27 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 01:08 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On September 14 2012 08:18 monk. wrote:On June 08 2012 03:07 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
the problem with a build like this arises when the zerg is smart and defends your dt's, then follows up with a large roach push (with overseers of course) and your sentry count is abysmally low so you just flat out die. This is exactly why I transition directly into a Robotics Facility. I should have enough Force Fields to buy myself time to get Immortals out on the field and at that point Sentry/Immortal/Stalker > Roaches. I've not experienced hardcore Roach timing-attacks enough to judge how that would pan out, but against some of the moderate Roach pressure responses I've seen I've never had a problem. I want to emphasize this. I don't believe it's possible to defend a roach counter if your opponent defends the dts perfectly. It has more to do with delayed sentries with low energy/low gas count rather than immortal timing. See Inca vs Nestea GSL finals. I want to emphasize his emphasis of my point. This game is no where near as simple as ""Get a robo out in time for immortals to stop a roach push"" your not going to be able to make DT's AND make more than 2-3 sentries (Which wont have energy because you made them late to make dt's) AND get a robo out in good time AND have more than maybe 1 immortal by the time 30 roaches arrive at your base and boom. your dead. 1 base tech builds that rely on the zerg being caught off guard/unable to scout are just straight up bad at this point in the meta game. Any smart zerg will get an evo chamber + spore vs. any kind of 1 base double gas opening from P.
This may work out for you in platinum league and below but I guarantee you this build would never succeed ever in higher levels of play Why do you say stuff like this? Saying it doesn't make it true, and both I and the OP are masters level protosses who say it can work and have tested it, as opposed to you, who is simply theory crafting and acting like anyone who ever goes dts must be terrible, and anyone who dies to it must be twice as bad. Get off your high horse and talk like a real person. Yes, if the DTs do 0 damage, and he goes for a roach counter, you may be in trouble, but every opening you do in starcraft is going to have its positives and negatives, this one has to do damage, or at least by time, so that you can get cannons/immortals.
I think that this wouldn't work in high masters and above. Low masters players are still really shitty in the scheme of things. They aren't playing "optimally" yet. And agiantsmurf is a solid top ~3 master. I agree with him.
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The BO is just bad old DT expansion if you think nobody will get abit suspicious about 1sentry 5 zealots at start I have some bad news for you. This can and will only work when the Z is greedy+no scout .. but then again every build would work against that.
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When going void rays, you simply want to make sure you always have 1 that is either monitoring the path towards your base or can get there in time if need be. If you have dt tech, you should always have control of the watch tower. If you have a void ray(s) attacking their units from the get go, hardly anyone, if anyone, will try to go for the counter. If they want to attack, they will wait for overseers, but once those get sniped... it's the same story. Can't proceed. If you're worried about roaches, you're doing it wrong. What you don't want to see are units that affect your map control: corruptors, mutas or hydras. Instead of doing things at your own leisure, they force you to make sure you can defend possible timings, even if they aren't coming. The less map awareness you have, obviously the harder it becomes to play optimally. You can still obviously fare well against those openings, but you simply frown a lil bit because you should view them staying on pure roaches as a free win.
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So far every time i have done this build it has worked, and i am still not using it much at all. To all those saying any masters player would have detection automatically on scouting gateway expo, it just isn't true.
http://drop.sc/264492
This game was against muta, which i am usually horrible against, but the dts had done enough that i managed to transition it into a win.
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On October 14 2012 20:27 Surili wrote:So far every time i have done this build it has worked, and i am still not using it much at all. To all those saying any masters player would have detection automatically on scouting gateway expo, it just isn't true. http://drop.sc/264492This game was against muta, which i am usually horrible against, but the dts had done enough that i managed to transition it into a win.
Of course master players make mistakes, but this doesn`t make the strategy good. It`s one thing to play a pressure/aggressive build to force mistakes from your opponent (as in you constant harras, test his multitask etc) and try to get ahead with it. It`s another to play a strategy that heavily relies on an opponent making a basic BO oversight or having horrible game sense, even if it does happen from time to time.
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Italy12247 Posts
It's not that it's a bad strategy per se, it's just that you should never go into a BoX series with this as your standard build...right Inca?
If you like to gateway expand, using this every once in a while can be a decent high risk/high reward build though.
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EPT
