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On October 03 2012 08:07 Sated wrote:I've recently been using a PvT Blink Stalker all-in that I saw HelloKitty using on his stream: http://drop.sc/260854The build is incredibly greedy given how quickly it rushes for Blink and an Observer and that's perfectly fine vs. most Terran strategies... I'm just worried about what I'd do if I saw a group of Marines and Marauders moving across the map before my Warpgates are ready. Should I just accept the coin-flip when using this build..? I'll probably only be using it on Shakuras Plateau anyway seeing as I have Antiga Shipyard vetoed.
This build usually works well when you scout 1 rax cc or cc1st
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United States123 Posts
When going for a later-hitting 1 base all-in, for example a 4 gate colossus push in PvP, when should you usually cut probes? I usually go up to 26 and stop. Should I be getting more or less than this?
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On October 04 2012 08:02 Chandra wrote:
When going for a later-hitting 1 base all-in, for example a 4 gate colossus push in PvP, when should you usually cut probes? I usually go up to 26 and stop. Should I be getting more or less than this?
Minimally you want 24 (2 workers x 8 min patches = 16, 3 workers x 2 gas geysers = 6, 16 + 6 = 24), ensuring saturation on all mineral patches and gas geysers. 26 is about the point of diminishing returns, where the minerals/min income per probe is more or less the same. After 26 each probe starts to do a bit too much sitting around waiting for the mineral patch to become free. You can read the Liquipedia entry on mining rates to get more info on this.
Setting aside the income rate of return, you'll generally have to figure out the number of probes you want for your specific build. If you know you can produce stalkers constantly out of 4 warp gates on 24 probes, there's no reason to go up to 26. The trade-off is of course that that little extra mineral income will bank, and after several warp-in cycles you will probably be floating enough minerals to expand, should you need to.
tl;dr: until you understand enough about your build orders to know exactly how many probes you will need for them, 26 is a fine choice for probe count to cut production at for a 1 base all-in.
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16 + 6 = 22, not 24.
I'd say if you have money to get above 22, then do so but your build takes precedence over that.
But whatever you do scrounge up can be quickly transferred to another base if you have to expand out of that all-in. Assuming an infinite pool of money, 22 probes on minerals is the most you should have on one base for a total of 28 probes.
But again - your build timings first, making probes second.
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On October 04 2012 11:17 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
16 + 6 = 22, not 24.
I'd say if you have money to get above 22, then do so but your build takes precedence over that.
But whatever you do scrounge up can be quickly transferred to another base if you have to expand out of that all-in. Assuming an infinite pool of money, 22 probes on minerals is the most you should have on one base for a total of 28 probes.
But again - your build timings first, making probes second.
Heurgh. I blame tiredness for bad math. Reduce all my numbers by 2, then, 22 instead of 24 and 24 instead of 26.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah i have seen MC in GSL do it against a gas opening which turned out to be a 111 (i can't remember if it had cloak or a hellion drop though); what ended up happening is both players expanded and played a normal game since they had no way of killing each other.
I think holding 2rax should mostly be a matter of adjusting your opening. Of course you are at risk if you open zealot/stalker/stalker and then cut units to get tech and production up, but if you delay blink a bit, maybe get a sentry out (can be useful if you can get a ff on a ramp later on) or faster wg for slightly slower blink it might still be doable. It really comes down to how risky you want to play.
That said, moving out with 2rax into a one basing protoss is suicide vs a majority of other openings (3gate aggressive expand, immortal bust, void ray bust), and none sane will ever try to commit up your ramp when he walks across the map and sees no nexus.
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Italy12246 Posts
You can still get plenty of units from one gateway to hold off 2rax if he comes up you ramp though. It comes more down to the timing of the robo and extra gateways, as well as how much you chrono wg/units as opposed to blink/obs.
If you have a GSL ticket, look up Mc's pvt on Antiga he did it a lot last season.
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Hello guys,
I know only stargate into robo build at PvZ that i learned at Day[9] and this is just ridiculous that i'm Diamond and know only this build.
There is any Guide Robo + some gates into fast 3rd build that someone did?
Or any replay?
Thanks in advance,
Daniel.
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On October 05 2012 00:42 Daniel12 wrote:
Hello guys,
I know only stargate into robo build at PvZ that i learned at Day[9] and this is just ridiculous that i'm Diamond and know only this build.
There is any Guide Robo + some gates into fast 3rd build that someone did?
Or any replay?
Thanks in advance,
Daniel.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021
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It appears to me that Motherships cannot be reactionary.
Lair-> Hive 100 sec
Spire->Greater spire 100 sec
Corruptor-> BL 34 sec
234 secs from hive start to BL
Stargate 60 sec
Fleet beacon 60 sec
mothership 160
280 seconds from stargate to Mothership
You can knock a minute off the Protoss timing if you open stargate after FFE, but even still that's a 14 second difference, not even accounting for the fact that the mothership starts with only 50 energy.
Obviously he can't go instant BL-> kill you but it leaves one in a very awkward position if you go for a pre-BL timing and it doesn't work. It seems like you either have to have started your mothership tech when attacking, making the attack much weaker. And you need a fourth base as well, making the attack that much weaker.
The way this lays out in my mind is that pre-BL timings have to be all-in to be effective, and you have to turtle and get mothership as part of your plan to fight infestor/BL. If you try to do it reactionarily it will just come too late.
I suppose there's a couple of questions at the end of this. Is any part of this thought process incorrect? When is the correct time to hit? (Day9 claimed 16:00 but I believe that's mistaken, you can have BL at 15 with an 11 min hive). And is there a way to do a pre-BL timing without putting yourself all in or at least committing a ton?
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Italy12246 Posts
Yes, many times if you go for a dedicated pre-bl timing you are pretty much allin as taking both a 4th and teching up to mothership does weaken your push considerably.
If you want to tech to mothership and play a longer game you should still take map control, posture around, clear creep and potentially catch him out of position to sneak a few warp prisms with zealots or templar around the map, but you should not commit to a full on attack. 15 minutes is indeed correct and day9 is off on his timing.
However, a 15 minute Zerg army even with broodlords isn't that scary. This is because well upgraded stalker/colossus or immortal/templar/stalker can deal reasonably well with a low broodlord/infestor count, with a good amount of other hatch/lair tech units; this is especially true if he has a high roach count. The Zerg deathball only becomes scary when his broodlord and infestor count get high, which happens later on in the game. This means it's extremely risky for Zerg to push out with his first few broodlords as you can still win a fight even without a vortex, especially since tou have the defender's advantage. Zerg would rather sit and increase his unit count and infestor energy rather than immediately attack the Protoss when his army isn't ready to defeat yours yet.
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Thanks Teoita. So the solution, if I'm reading your post correctly, is to posture and not commit with a pre-Mothership army, and keep Zerg threatened. And because he can't kill me at 15 minutes, there's a little bit more leeway on the mothership timing. Am I understanding you correctly?
Do you have an opinion on precisely when to start SG?
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Italy12246 Posts
The faster the better of course. I'd say, start it when you see hive started and know Zerg isn't going to do a roach/corruptor/infestor attack of some sort.
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Alrighty. Much appreciated. 
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Italy12246 Posts
I should clarify: if he goes 11 minute hive you want to give priority to other tech such as blink, colossi or upgrades. At 11 minutes you are just starting to see a payoff from your third base in many scenarios, so starting the Stargate when you have a decent army and you are 100% sure he is turtling up (hive started AND spine wall going up) is fine.
If he goes for hive later than 12-13 minute (which signals aggression) you want to delay your mothership tech accordingly.
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What is a good answer to a zerg who goes muta, then mass ling-baneling? I felt that the stalker-HT composition was helpless, but it may be just my poor micro? (I really cannot make any use of HT against lings, they move too fast). Obviously zelaots are pretty good againt lings, but they die to banelings so fast. What to do without colossi?
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Italy12246 Posts
When fighting vs Muta/ling it's important to not forget about the "ling" part of the composition. Keeping a healthy zealot count is helpful for this reason. Archons are also extremely useful in that spot.
Generally a Zerg will only go into banelings after he has killed all your sentries (which is bound to happen eventually), but at this point you should have access to archons and storm, both of which devastating against muta/ling/baneling.
From what you are saying, it sounds like you are not landing storms properly on his army.
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On October 05 2012 04:25 opisska wrote:
What is a good answer to a zerg who goes muta, then mass ling-baneling? I felt that the stalker-HT composition was helpless, but it may be just my poor micro? (I really cannot make any use of HT against lings, they move too fast). Obviously zelaots are pretty good againt lings, but they die to banelings so fast. What to do without colossi?
There's not really an answer to this besides better micro and army control. The only answer against banelings no matter what units you have is to spread out your own units well (i.e. don't let all your zealots stand there in front and spread them out everywhere, blink stalkers back 1 or a few at a time), and try storming banelings. Morphing some archons might help soak up some of the damage as well.
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EPT
