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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
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Italy12246 Posts
As kcdc posted in the thread, you can have only two among fast observers, fast upgrades and fast storm.
If you go fast charge, getting the templar up in time for an archon should be ok. If you aren't confident in that, cut out the upgrades and go for sick fast storm, and double forge later on (like 9 minutes), or learn how to one gate expand and learn kcdc's build. Also you should have charge up a bit faster if you start it before storm; i remember getting it up at like 10.30 before i moved on to the Startale build.
Your last option is to delay the Terran's push with pressure, which in your case would be an immortal pressure type of build, while throwing down a forge/twilight in the background (i more or less do this off 1gate fe into 3gate aggression on close spawn positions sometimes)
That said, since you are a stubborn person and keep opening 2gate robo you also risk running into games where terran just has too much shit for you to handle if he opens gassless.
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How much econ do you really lose by going 2 gate robo instead of 1 gate FE? 200 minerals by the 10 minute mark? Less?
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Having said that, there is something to be said about throwing conservative openings into one's play every once in a while, even at higher levels. They tend to force less refined reactions from players, due to their being unused to playing against it, such as an unnecessary scan from a Terran, a few too many Lings from a Zerg etc.
I like throwing in a 1 Gate Robo expand into PvT every now and then. The quick obs allows me to scout the Terran and react quite appropriately.
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On October 05 2012 08:26 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 06:17 Gumbi wrote:
Having said that, there is something to be said about throwing conservative openings into one's play every once in a while, even at higher levels. They tend to force less refined reactions from players, due to their being unused to playing against it, such as an unnecessary scan from a Terran, a few too many Lings from a Zerg etc.
I like throwing in a 1 Gate Robo expand into PvT every now and then. The quick obs allows me to scout the Terran and react quite appropriately. The biggest reaction you'll get out of a Terran player is an earlier Turret on the off-chance you're rushing for Dark Templar, and that's only if you somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran). They'll also go up to 3 Bunkers more often than they usually would because it's possible that you could be going for an Immortal timing-attack, but making 3 Bunkers is not really a big deal for them. Terrans can play a standard 1 Rax FE against pretty much anything as long as they control properly, so you really shouldn't expect to force an unrefined opening by using a conservative opening. EDIT: Using a conservative Sentry Expand opening vs. a Zerg player will more often lead to less refined reactions because the Zerg player definitely can't do what they'd normally do against a FFE. This is probably why I've been having so much success with both NonY's 2 Gate Sentry Expand and my Dark Templar Expand.
to your first paragraph, yes forcing a turret isnt much, they noramlly build one anyway, you perhaps may get them building an extra bunker, and i doubt they will go for triple CC, or fact before 3 rax.
What do you mean "somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran)" stopping a terran from scouting your main base isnt difficult, if you go zealot/stalker/stalker, which most people do, you should force a scan out of them to see if you have a natural or not, and that scan my not even see the robo in the main.
To your edit, a sentry expand CAN work, seed does it a fair bit, which is a better example than nony. he makes an effort to scout the third, if he sees it he does a 5gate all in, which he has a very high win % with, if not he goes for phnx and plays a macro game (they give good scouting, and 2 base muta is a common/viable option against a gateway expand) The main strength of playing a lot of gateway expand is that you will become good at playing that style, while your opponent isnt going to have much practice, if any, against non FFE builds, much like mech against protoss.
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On October 05 2012 08:56 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 08:48 L3g3nd_ wrote:On October 05 2012 08:26 Sated wrote:On October 05 2012 06:17 Gumbi wrote:
Having said that, there is something to be said about throwing conservative openings into one's play every once in a while, even at higher levels. They tend to force less refined reactions from players, due to their being unused to playing against it, such as an unnecessary scan from a Terran, a few too many Lings from a Zerg etc.
I like throwing in a 1 Gate Robo expand into PvT every now and then. The quick obs allows me to scout the Terran and react quite appropriately. The biggest reaction you'll get out of a Terran player is an earlier Turret on the off-chance you're rushing for Dark Templar, and that's only if you somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran). They'll also go up to 3 Bunkers more often than they usually would because it's possible that you could be going for an Immortal timing-attack, but making 3 Bunkers is not really a big deal for them. Terrans can play a standard 1 Rax FE against pretty much anything as long as they control properly, so you really shouldn't expect to force an unrefined opening by using a conservative opening. EDIT: Using a conservative Sentry Expand opening vs. a Zerg player will more often lead to less refined reactions because the Zerg player definitely can't do what they'd normally do against a FFE. This is probably why I've been having so much success with both NonY's 2 Gate Sentry Expand and my Dark Templar Expand. to your first paragraph, yes forcing a turret isnt much, they noramlly build one anyway, you perhaps may get them building an extra bunker, and i doubt they will go for triple CC, or fact before 3 rax. What do you mean "somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran)" stopping a terran from scouting your main base isnt difficult, if you go zealot/stalker/stalker, which most people do, you should force a scan out of them to see if you have a natural or not, and that scan my not even see the robo in the main. To your edit, a sentry expand CAN work, seed does it a fair bit, which is a better example than nony. he makes an effort to scout the third, if he sees it he does a 5gate all in, which he has a very high win % with, if not he goes for phnx and plays a macro game (they give good scouting, and 2 base muta is a common/viable option against a gateway expand) The main strength of playing a lot of gateway expand is that you will become good at playing that style, while your opponent isnt going to have much practice, if any, against non FFE builds, much like mech against protoss. The two standard 2 Gate Robo openings I've seen on streams will either skip the Zealot and go Stalker/Sentry/Sentry or keep the Zealot and go Zealot/Sentry/Zealot/Sentry. With the first build, I have the gas for my Robotics Facility just as my Stalker finishes (sometimes before) and this means that I cannot kill the SCV before throwing down my Robotics Facility without delaying it. With the second build, neither your Zealot nor your Sentry will kill the SCV before your Robotics Facility needs to be thrown down.
i dont use these builds, but it seems best to delay it by 3 seconds or something, and make sure you get a stalker and deny scouting, or is the execution of the build more important than the terrans reaction?
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On October 05 2012 09:09 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 09:05 L3g3nd_ wrote:On October 05 2012 08:56 Sated wrote:On October 05 2012 08:48 L3g3nd_ wrote:On October 05 2012 08:26 Sated wrote:On October 05 2012 06:17 Gumbi wrote:
Having said that, there is something to be said about throwing conservative openings into one's play every once in a while, even at higher levels. They tend to force less refined reactions from players, due to their being unused to playing against it, such as an unnecessary scan from a Terran, a few too many Lings from a Zerg etc.
I like throwing in a 1 Gate Robo expand into PvT every now and then. The quick obs allows me to scout the Terran and react quite appropriately. The biggest reaction you'll get out of a Terran player is an earlier Turret on the off-chance you're rushing for Dark Templar, and that's only if you somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran). They'll also go up to 3 Bunkers more often than they usually would because it's possible that you could be going for an Immortal timing-attack, but making 3 Bunkers is not really a big deal for them. Terrans can play a standard 1 Rax FE against pretty much anything as long as they control properly, so you really shouldn't expect to force an unrefined opening by using a conservative opening. EDIT: Using a conservative Sentry Expand opening vs. a Zerg player will more often lead to less refined reactions because the Zerg player definitely can't do what they'd normally do against a FFE. This is probably why I've been having so much success with both NonY's 2 Gate Sentry Expand and my Dark Templar Expand. to your first paragraph, yes forcing a turret isnt much, they noramlly build one anyway, you perhaps may get them building an extra bunker, and i doubt they will go for triple CC, or fact before 3 rax. What do you mean "somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran)" stopping a terran from scouting your main base isnt difficult, if you go zealot/stalker/stalker, which most people do, you should force a scan out of them to see if you have a natural or not, and that scan my not even see the robo in the main. To your edit, a sentry expand CAN work, seed does it a fair bit, which is a better example than nony. he makes an effort to scout the third, if he sees it he does a 5gate all in, which he has a very high win % with, if not he goes for phnx and plays a macro game (they give good scouting, and 2 base muta is a common/viable option against a gateway expand) The main strength of playing a lot of gateway expand is that you will become good at playing that style, while your opponent isnt going to have much practice, if any, against non FFE builds, much like mech against protoss. The two standard 2 Gate Robo openings I've seen on streams will either skip the Zealot and go Stalker/Sentry/Sentry or keep the Zealot and go Zealot/Sentry/Zealot/Sentry. With the first build, I have the gas for my Robotics Facility just as my Stalker finishes (sometimes before) and this means that I cannot kill the SCV before throwing down my Robotics Facility without delaying it. With the second build, neither your Zealot nor your Sentry will kill the SCV before your Robotics Facility needs to be thrown down. i dont use these builds, but it seems best to delay it by 3 seconds or something, and make sure you get a stalker and deny scouting, or is the execution of the build more important than the terrans reaction? 2 Gate Robo builds don't rely on surprising the Terran opponent. This means that there isn't any real reason to delay the Robotics Facility in order to deny it being scouted. Also, because 1 Rax FE builds are so safe against pretty much everything (except maybe Blink Stalker all-ins on certain maps), you're not going to force a ridiculous response out of the Terran even if they don't scout your Robotics Facility... unless your opponent is terrible and freaks out. EDIT: I was actually going to do a write-up of the 2 Gate Robo macro-build I usually use, but I don't think too many people will be interested 
hmm okay, i guess a collosus all in is scary for a 1rax FE too? i remember parting (IIRC) did a bunch of them and won easily, they could be scared of that.
whether your guide has people interested in it probably depends on how good you are
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On October 05 2012 09:36 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 09:29 L3g3nd_ wrote:On October 05 2012 09:09 Sated wrote:On October 05 2012 09:05 L3g3nd_ wrote:On October 05 2012 08:56 Sated wrote:On October 05 2012 08:48 L3g3nd_ wrote:On October 05 2012 08:26 Sated wrote:On October 05 2012 06:17 Gumbi wrote:
Having said that, there is something to be said about throwing conservative openings into one's play every once in a while, even at higher levels. They tend to force less refined reactions from players, due to their being unused to playing against it, such as an unnecessary scan from a Terran, a few too many Lings from a Zerg etc.
I like throwing in a 1 Gate Robo expand into PvT every now and then. The quick obs allows me to scout the Terran and react quite appropriately. The biggest reaction you'll get out of a Terran player is an earlier Turret on the off-chance you're rushing for Dark Templar, and that's only if you somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran). They'll also go up to 3 Bunkers more often than they usually would because it's possible that you could be going for an Immortal timing-attack, but making 3 Bunkers is not really a big deal for them. Terrans can play a standard 1 Rax FE against pretty much anything as long as they control properly, so you really shouldn't expect to force an unrefined opening by using a conservative opening. EDIT: Using a conservative Sentry Expand opening vs. a Zerg player will more often lead to less refined reactions because the Zerg player definitely can't do what they'd normally do against a FFE. This is probably why I've been having so much success with both NonY's 2 Gate Sentry Expand and my Dark Templar Expand. to your first paragraph, yes forcing a turret isnt much, they noramlly build one anyway, you perhaps may get them building an extra bunker, and i doubt they will go for triple CC, or fact before 3 rax. What do you mean "somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran)" stopping a terran from scouting your main base isnt difficult, if you go zealot/stalker/stalker, which most people do, you should force a scan out of them to see if you have a natural or not, and that scan my not even see the robo in the main. To your edit, a sentry expand CAN work, seed does it a fair bit, which is a better example than nony. he makes an effort to scout the third, if he sees it he does a 5gate all in, which he has a very high win % with, if not he goes for phnx and plays a macro game (they give good scouting, and 2 base muta is a common/viable option against a gateway expand) The main strength of playing a lot of gateway expand is that you will become good at playing that style, while your opponent isnt going to have much practice, if any, against non FFE builds, much like mech against protoss. The two standard 2 Gate Robo openings I've seen on streams will either skip the Zealot and go Stalker/Sentry/Sentry or keep the Zealot and go Zealot/Sentry/Zealot/Sentry. With the first build, I have the gas for my Robotics Facility just as my Stalker finishes (sometimes before) and this means that I cannot kill the SCV before throwing down my Robotics Facility without delaying it. With the second build, neither your Zealot nor your Sentry will kill the SCV before your Robotics Facility needs to be thrown down. i dont use these builds, but it seems best to delay it by 3 seconds or something, and make sure you get a stalker and deny scouting, or is the execution of the build more important than the terrans reaction? 2 Gate Robo builds don't rely on surprising the Terran opponent. This means that there isn't any real reason to delay the Robotics Facility in order to deny it being scouted. Also, because 1 Rax FE builds are so safe against pretty much everything (except maybe Blink Stalker all-ins on certain maps), you're not going to force a ridiculous response out of the Terran even if they don't scout your Robotics Facility... unless your opponent is terrible and freaks out. EDIT: I was actually going to do a write-up of the 2 Gate Robo macro-build I usually use, but I don't think too many people will be interested hmm okay, i guess a collosus all in is scary for a 1rax FE too? i remember parting (IIRC) did a bunch of them and won easily, they could be scared of that. whether your guide has people interested in it probably depends on how good you are Doesn't that Colossus all-in start with a 1 Gate FE..? Or do you mean a 1 Base Colossus all-in..?
no there was a 1 base collosus all in he did for awhile
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On October 05 2012 08:56 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 08:48 L3g3nd_ wrote:On October 05 2012 08:26 Sated wrote:On October 05 2012 06:17 Gumbi wrote:
Having said that, there is something to be said about throwing conservative openings into one's play every once in a while, even at higher levels. They tend to force less refined reactions from players, due to their being unused to playing against it, such as an unnecessary scan from a Terran, a few too many Lings from a Zerg etc.
I like throwing in a 1 Gate Robo expand into PvT every now and then. The quick obs allows me to scout the Terran and react quite appropriately. The biggest reaction you'll get out of a Terran player is an earlier Turret on the off-chance you're rushing for Dark Templar, and that's only if you somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran). They'll also go up to 3 Bunkers more often than they usually would because it's possible that you could be going for an Immortal timing-attack, but making 3 Bunkers is not really a big deal for them. Terrans can play a standard 1 Rax FE against pretty much anything as long as they control properly, so you really shouldn't expect to force an unrefined opening by using a conservative opening. EDIT: Using a conservative Sentry Expand opening vs. a Zerg player will more often lead to less refined reactions because the Zerg player definitely can't do what they'd normally do against a FFE. This is probably why I've been having so much success with both NonY's 2 Gate Sentry Expand and my Dark Templar Expand. to your first paragraph, yes forcing a turret isnt much, they noramlly build one anyway, you perhaps may get them building an extra bunker, and i doubt they will go for triple CC, or fact before 3 rax. What do you mean "somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran)" stopping a terran from scouting your main base isnt difficult, if you go zealot/stalker/stalker, which most people do, you should force a scan out of them to see if you have a natural or not, and that scan my not even see the robo in the main. To your edit, a sentry expand CAN work, seed does it a fair bit, which is a better example than nony. he makes an effort to scout the third, if he sees it he does a 5gate all in, which he has a very high win % with, if not he goes for phnx and plays a macro game (they give good scouting, and 2 base muta is a common/viable option against a gateway expand) The main strength of playing a lot of gateway expand is that you will become good at playing that style, while your opponent isnt going to have much practice, if any, against non FFE builds, much like mech against protoss. The two standard 2 Gate Robo openings I've seen on streams will either skip the Zealot and go Stalker/Sentry/Sentry or keep the Zealot and go Zealot/Sentry/Zealot/Sentry. With the first build, I have the gas for my Robotics Facility just as my Stalker finishes (sometimes before) and this means that I cannot kill the SCV before throwing down my Robotics Facility without delaying it. With the second build, neither my Zealot nor my Sentry will kill the SCV before my Robotics Facility needs to be thrown down.
If you aren't willing to wait 5 seconds on your Robo, you're playing build order solitaire and not actual Starcraft. We aren't a bunch of robots. Players make decisions based upon what they see and what they don't see, and it's absolutely ridiculous to delay your robo in PvT unless building the robo 5 seconds earlier will win you the game outright. The only other time I show my opponents a robo, that early, in that matchup, is when I'm planning to show him the Robo, kill his scout, cancel the Robo, and go down another tech path.
And if your build order won't let you hide the robo from a scout in your main, go hide it in your natural like a MakaRax.
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So I've been working on a 4gate WP vs Terran but I can't seem to get the build as clean as I'd like. I think it requires getting double gas then pulling guys off gas after the proxy robo goes down. Does anyone have a VOD or build of tthis?
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what kinda time is it hitting? is it proxy robo or in base? and how many probes are you looking to do it off, ill have a mess around after you answer those questions and give you a replay after i optmiize it
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Oh that's probably why. I usually try to CB out 2 stalkers which is probably why everything is so delayed. The reason being, I try to poke with my initial zealot stalker, but have a stalker at home to deny the inevitable SCV scout. I suppose I should've been keeping my units at home all the while anyway. Thanks, I'll try to practice it a bit.
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On October 05 2012 10:32 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 10:24 ineversmile wrote:On October 05 2012 08:56 Sated wrote:On October 05 2012 08:48 L3g3nd_ wrote:On October 05 2012 08:26 Sated wrote:On October 05 2012 06:17 Gumbi wrote:
Having said that, there is something to be said about throwing conservative openings into one's play every once in a while, even at higher levels. They tend to force less refined reactions from players, due to their being unused to playing against it, such as an unnecessary scan from a Terran, a few too many Lings from a Zerg etc.
I like throwing in a 1 Gate Robo expand into PvT every now and then. The quick obs allows me to scout the Terran and react quite appropriately. The biggest reaction you'll get out of a Terran player is an earlier Turret on the off-chance you're rushing for Dark Templar, and that's only if you somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran). They'll also go up to 3 Bunkers more often than they usually would because it's possible that you could be going for an Immortal timing-attack, but making 3 Bunkers is not really a big deal for them. Terrans can play a standard 1 Rax FE against pretty much anything as long as they control properly, so you really shouldn't expect to force an unrefined opening by using a conservative opening. EDIT: Using a conservative Sentry Expand opening vs. a Zerg player will more often lead to less refined reactions because the Zerg player definitely can't do what they'd normally do against a FFE. This is probably why I've been having so much success with both NonY's 2 Gate Sentry Expand and my Dark Templar Expand. to your first paragraph, yes forcing a turret isnt much, they noramlly build one anyway, you perhaps may get them building an extra bunker, and i doubt they will go for triple CC, or fact before 3 rax. What do you mean "somehow manage to stop them scouting your Robotics Facility (which you shouldn't be able to do against a competent Terran)" stopping a terran from scouting your main base isnt difficult, if you go zealot/stalker/stalker, which most people do, you should force a scan out of them to see if you have a natural or not, and that scan my not even see the robo in the main. To your edit, a sentry expand CAN work, seed does it a fair bit, which is a better example than nony. he makes an effort to scout the third, if he sees it he does a 5gate all in, which he has a very high win % with, if not he goes for phnx and plays a macro game (they give good scouting, and 2 base muta is a common/viable option against a gateway expand) The main strength of playing a lot of gateway expand is that you will become good at playing that style, while your opponent isnt going to have much practice, if any, against non FFE builds, much like mech against protoss. The two standard 2 Gate Robo openings I've seen on streams will either skip the Zealot and go Stalker/Sentry/Sentry or keep the Zealot and go Zealot/Sentry/Zealot/Sentry. With the first build, I have the gas for my Robotics Facility just as my Stalker finishes (sometimes before) and this means that I cannot kill the SCV before throwing down my Robotics Facility without delaying it. With the second build, neither my Zealot nor my Sentry will kill the SCV before my Robotics Facility needs to be thrown down. If you aren't willing to wait 5 seconds on your Robo, you're playing build order solitaire and not actual Starcraft. We aren't a bunch of robots. Players make decisions based upon what they see and what they don't see, and it's absolutely ridiculous to delay your robo in PvT unless building the robo 5 seconds earlier will win you the game outright. The only other time I show my opponents a robo, that early, in that matchup, is when I'm planning to show him the Robo, kill his scout, cancel the Robo, and go down another tech path. And if your build order won't let you hide the robo from a scout in your main, go hide it in your natural like a MakaRax. If I was doing a 1 Base Blink Stalker all-in and I wanted to hide the Twilight Council then that would make sense. That build depends somewhat on the opponent not being ready for you to Blink into their base and ruin their shit. This is not the case for a passive 2 Gate Robo build. Seriously, they can see my Robotics Facility all they want, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to how I'm going to play the game... and not seeing it shouldn't make much of a difference to how they play unless they're prone to freaking the fuck out.
It's not about how you play, it's about what they think you're going to play. If you open with Zealots and Sentries and they're on a 1Rax expo, what does that say you're doing? Sure, you could be adding a Robo. Or maybe you're getting Sentries because they can save you gas, so you can dump a lot of minerals into other stuff--rather than getting that stalker out front. And then there's also the pushes that took MC to his first GSL championship over a year ago, where you make 6+ sentries early and then go bust his front with a brickload of forcefields.
Let me put it this way: if I'm the terran and you show me a Robo that early, I know 100% what you're doing for the next few minutes and I can do whatever I want. Oh, you're not adding on 2 more gates right now? I'm cutting corners. Or maybe my midgame plan is sometimes to do something cheeky like CloakedShees at around the Medivac timing, but now I know you're getting a robo, so I won't choose the wrong tech path and get wrecked by it. Either way, it's just a bad idea to telegraph information. You wouldn't fan out a hand of Pocket Aces in Poker, would you? Your robo can wait 5 seconds.
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EPT
