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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Personally i 13 scout on 2 player maps checking proxy spots and core scout on 4 player maps going cross first (since the center is the only place where they can proxy). Do you have a link to that Naniwa game? Are you sure it was 1gate FE and not some sort of gateway aggression/poke into expansion? | ||
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Arcainhunter
17 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Generally with a standard opening like 1gate FE, you should be able to hold with gateway unit production off 2-3 gates (making about 2-3 sentries, a coupe of stalkers and rest zealots if he's massing marauders) and eventually an immortal or two. Against something like a 3rax stim allin you need to make sure to be hitting your forcefields, missing them or, as is more common in lower leagues, not trying to use them at all, will make early game bio look far scarier than it actually is. An example of holding a 3rax from another blue poster is here: http://drop.sc/103700 | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On September 27 2012 05:05 Teoita wrote: Other than the danger of proxies and various cheeses, it means your early game opening doesn't change wether you see something that looks like aggression or not. On the one hand that's pretty nice to have a build that can hold anything like alej's, but if you scout something greedy ish and you don't need to be safe vs 4gate to tech faster, might as well, especially when it comes to pvp. Personally i 13 scout on 2 player maps checking proxy spots and core scout on 4 player maps going cross first (since the center is the only place where they can proxy). Do you have a link to that Naniwa game? Are you sure it was 1gate FE and not some sort of gateway aggression/poke into expansion? This was the game but it was 2 gate FE, my bad. (http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67585/?set=3&lang=kor). But the second gate is just there in case of early aggression I think because you can get out as many units as he did with 1 gate. Would you be down for some games on the EU servers later next week to try out PvP builds ? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
edit: just watched the game, i more or less remembered it. The build Naniwa used actually gives him more units than you would with just a 1 gate fe, as the takes his nexus off like 3 stalkers and a couple of sentries; the gateways are never idle pre wg. The 3 stalkers in particular are nice because they give him map control and the ability to easily deny scouting. In fact, the 2gate FE monk talks about is, more or less, 3 stalker rush->2sentries->nexus->2more sentries from wg, which is pretty similar. That said, in the last month or so in pro games i have seen more and more fast expands/immortal expands die to blink/obs. Pro's have started adding a warp prism to sentry drop after their first poke, so they blink in, ff half your army away, kill the first half and then kill the units that were guarding the natural. I have no idea how i would stop that. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 27 2012 04:43 monk. wrote: I think this depends on your definition of "risky". It's generally accepted that all builds are less risky than 1 gate FE, and that's usually the kind of advice I seek to give. All the builds you've mentioned, including blink obs, phoenix, and robo openings are generally considered safer options, because they are still playable against every other build and don't get too far ahead of any build. In contrast, your definition takes into account the metagame; usually you will get ahead of 1 gate FE, but sometimes you will die. In other words, you'll always comes out significantly ahead of or behind of most other builds, which I would say is the very definition of risky. I suspect your reasoning also has to do with the NA metagame, where aggression and pressure are much less common compared to KR or the pro scene. Another build wihch you didn't mention is the very popular 2 gate expand, which, imo is much "safer" than the 1 gate expand, even by your definition. And honestly, are you going to tell newer players to open up 1 gate FE every game? This will lead to many silly loses and a warped sense of the game. Yep, it depends on what you mean by "risky." People want to say that a build that guarantees that your main won't be dead at 8 minutes is "safe," but the way I see it, you're still dead if your opponent has double your economy and you have no viable timing to stop it. I'd say a "safe" build like a phoenix opening is playable against 1 gate FE the same way 1 gate FE is playable against 4 gate. Which is to say you've lost unless your opponent royally screws up. As for the 2 gate expand, sure, that plays out basically like a 1 gate expand. I don't think it's quite right to say that the 2 gate expand is safer tho. They're each safer in their own ways. As for what I'd recommend for new players, I'd tell them to 4 gate every game. Then I'd tell them to 1 gate FE every game. From the 4 gating, you'll understand why tech builds work the way they do and you'll learn what the downsides are to 4 gate, and from the 1 gate FE'ing, you'll learn what the timings of each tech build are and what their weaknesses are. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2012 05:23 Teoita wrote: Hell yeah. I hardly played in the last month due to exams and i need to get some decent practice again. My accounts are teo.174 and synaris.296 edit: just watched the game, i more or less remembered it. The build Naniwa used actually gives him more units than you would with just a 1 gate fe, as the takes his nexus off like 3 stalkers and a couple of sentries; the gateways are never idle pre wg. The 3 stalkers in particular are nice because they give him map control and the ability to easily deny scouting. In fact, the 2gate FE monk talks about is, more or less, 3 stalker rush->2sentries->nexus->2more sentries from wg, which is pretty similar. That said, in the last month or so in pro games i have seen more and more fast expands/immortal expands die to blink/obs. Pro's have started adding a warp prism to sentry drop after their first poke, so they blink in, ff half your army away, kill the first half and then kill the units that were guarding the natural. I have no idea how i would stop that. Wasn't that game a modified 2 gate FE? Could have sworn there were 2 gates before nexus. Also, that warp prism build you're talking about has been on NA for a really long time, almost a year. I see some NA protosses do it a lot in tournaments as well, but I think it was first used by a Korean on a televised match a few weeks ago. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
I guess in the future you will probably have to keep most of your stalkers next to your ramp to keep the sentry from landing the ff at all, but even then it sounds pretty tought as he can blink in first and on most maps where blink/obs is common it opens up the rest of your main to harassment. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
So far I'm just telling him to spend his money, and not get supply blocked, and letting him figure out what to build (at this point he knows the basics of units and stuff, but is still a bronzie). Any advice here would be helpful, I'm not really sure how MUCH info I should give him, and how fast. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On September 27 2012 06:36 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Any ideas on how to teach a brand new; never-played-the-game-before player who wants to play Protoss? So far I'm just telling him to spend his money, and not get supply blocked, and letting him figure out what to build (at this point he knows the basics of units and stuff, but is still a bronzie). Any advice here would be helpful, I'm not really sure how MUCH info I should give him, and how fast. You should just show him a game where all you do is make probes pylons and stalkers. The reason he should make stalkers is because they hit air and ground and are OK vs most everything. At that low a level, no matter how many "counter" units the opponent has, if you can teach your friend to make more stalkers he should still win. Alternatively you can teach him to make 50/50 zealots if you feel that a more "balanced" composition would help him. Really, it all comes down to making sure your friend understands the simple basics: How to make probes and use hotkeys to do it How to make pylons and use hotkeys to do it How to Attack move (I have seen SOOO many bronze players right click on a specific unit to issue an attack or move and wait for the units to start attacking on their own once they get there). | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On September 27 2012 06:36 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Any ideas on how to teach a brand new; never-played-the-game-before player who wants to play Protoss? So far I'm just telling him to spend his money, and not get supply blocked, and letting him figure out what to build (at this point he knows the basics of units and stuff, but is still a bronzie). Any advice here would be helpful, I'm not really sure how MUCH info I should give him, and how fast. I told my friend to 4 gate every game with the exact BO. I told him I would teach him something else once he managed to warp in units before 5:42 at least 3 ladder games in a row. He still hasn't finished the task and he is in diamond. But I'm a lousy teacher  But seriously, that's how I learned. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On September 27 2012 07:09 ZeromuS wrote: You should just show him a game where all you do is make probes pylons and stalkers. The reason he should make stalkers is because they hit air and ground and are OK vs most everything. At that low a level, no matter how many "counter" units the opponent has, if you can teach your friend to make more stalkers he should still win. Alternatively you can teach him to make 50/50 zealots if you feel that a more "balanced" composition would help him. Really, it all comes down to making sure your friend understands the simple basics: How to make probes and use hotkeys to do it How to make pylons and use hotkeys to do it How to Attack move (I have seen SOOO many bronze players right click on a specific unit to issue an attack or move and wait for the units to start attacking on their own once they get there). Luckily he loves stalkers; so that should work out fine. | ||
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Allred
United States352 Posts
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JamesArk
Canada37 Posts
On September 27 2012 11:09 Allred wrote: does anyone know the best way to hold a 4 gate if... you want to go gate and then stargate. typically i get a zealot while my core is building, then a sentry, then a zealot and then another sentry out of my first gate and i get my second gas on 19 or 20. i always seem to have a hard time holding a fast 4 gate though. anyone know simple changes to hold this semi easily without just doing a different build? Welcome to heaven: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117 TL/DR: 17 zealot 20 gas #2 Stalker immediately after zealot Stalker #2 chrono'd Tech building of your choice/ Sentry It allows you to hold a 4 gate dead with Force Fields and use your early zealot/stalker/stalker to fight off his incoming probe/zealot/stalker. Requires a bit of practice to get the Sentry out @ the earliest possible 4 gate time though. | ||
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hersimp
Norway40 Posts
Diamond protoss here that just struggle to understand why i lost this PvP. Lategame mass colossus wars can be quite frustrating sometimes, but this time i'm not completely sure exactly went wrong. It felt like i was abit head most of the game, and had quite good control Replay link here Here's my thoughts of the game: + Show Spoiler + Ok so in the early game i catch his stalkers at my watchtower. I only got 1 in plus, but i decided to go for an expo. I scout he's going expo as well, so i can safely probe ut and be abit greedier for the moment. Being the first to start upgrades and colossus prod (Only slightly tho). He went for his third slightly earlier than me, but i had a few more probes. I see in the replay that i shouldnt stopped so early with the probe production, but i still had more than him. Then i had a quite successful harass. Killing 17 workers and a colossus with a zealot+dt multipronged attack. Should have paid more attention to the DTs at his third to make sure they were killing probes. We quite evened out with colossus production here, since i spent robo time on WP. We're both going dbl robo at about the same time. I did double forge tho, wich he didnt After my harass i took a 4th not too long after. Having almost full map vision made me feel very confortable in the situation, i also denied his 4th base. Abit late, but I went for mothership just in case. Then the battle comes. I can see hes eager to attack now. This is where i need some feedback, since the battle went completely wrong for me. I had a few more colossus, but he had more cannon fodder. I had 3-3 in upgrades to his 3-1 Own thoughts: -should've spread the colossus more evenly so the all had a nice concave and range -Should've premade way more gateways for quicker reinforcements Questions: -should've moved to the edge of the ramp maybe (would that have mattered since colossus have vision up anyway?) -Was my unit composition not optimal? Did i need more immortals/archons in the mix? -Should i have targeted his colossus with mine? or would that have been to risky due to his immortals/archons in the front? Also feel free to add anything u want that might be helpful. Also about my build, wich is abit freestyle after i've expanded. I do like to aquire ok map vision so i can add more gateways instead of gateway units. And rather produce out of my tech buildings and play abit greedy maybe. I dont feel it was greedyness that made me lose this game tho, but what do i know  Best regards, thanks in advance | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On September 28 2012 05:47 hersimp wrote: Hi TL. Diamond protoss here that just struggle to understand why i lost this PvP. Lategame mass colossus wars can be quite frustrating sometimes, but this time i'm not completely sure exactly went wrong. It felt like i was abit head most of the game, and had quite good control Replay link here Here's my thoughts of the game: + Show Spoiler + Ok so in the early game i catch his stalkers at my watchtower. I only got 1 in plus, but i decided to go for an expo. I scout he's going expo as well, so i can safely probe ut and be abit greedier for the moment. Being the first to start upgrades and colossus prod (Only slightly tho). He went for his third slightly earlier than me, but i had a few more probes. I see in the replay that i shouldnt stopped so early with the probe production, but i still had more than him. Then i had a quite successful harass. Killing 17 workers and a colossus with a zealot+dt multipronged attack. Should have paid more attention to the DTs at his third to make sure they were killing probes. We quite evened out with colossus production here, since i spent robo time on WP. We're both going dbl robo at about the same time. I did double forge tho, wich he didnt After my harass i took a 4th not too long after. Having almost full map vision made me feel very confortable in the situation, i also denied his 4th base. Abit late, but I went for mothership just in case. Then the battle comes. I can see hes eager to attack now. This is where i need some feedback, since the battle went completely wrong for me. I had a few more colossus, but he had more cannon fodder. I had 3-3 in upgrades to his 3-1 Own thoughts: -should've spread the colossus more evenly so the all had a nice concave and range -Should've premade way more gateways for quicker reinforcements Questions: -should've moved to the edge of the ramp maybe (would that have mattered since colossus have vision up anyway?) -Was my unit composition not optimal? Did i need more immortals/archons in the mix? -Should i have targeted his colossus with mine? or would that have been to risky due to his immortals/archons in the front? Also feel free to add anything u want that might be helpful. Also about my build, wich is abit freestyle after i've expanded. I do like to aquire ok map vision so i can add more gateways instead of gateway units. And rather produce out of my tech buildings and play abit greedy maybe. I dont feel it was greedyness that made me lose this game tho, but what do i know Best regards, thanks in advance Looking over it, I'd say a large issue is the fact that you had 0 cannon fodder units, so even though you had 3 more colossus, because he had more zealots, you colossus will be taking damage first, so try to mix in a good number of tanks. Also as a micro trick, walk a single colossus forward; while targeting enemy colossus with it, during fights like these, that will tie up some of the colossus, from splashing and damaging other units. | ||
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CougarsGonnaCoug
United States18 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On September 28 2012 09:04 CougarsGonnaCoug wrote: Ok, I have a really stupid question that my gold-level brain is really baffled by. How are you supposed to react to CC first builds in a PvT? Normally I try to go 1Gate FE, as many of you do, but I see the CC first and I just feel like even if I plant my Nexus now, I'm going to be way behind. One game I tried to do some damage by transitioning into 3Gate expand, and the next I just planted my Nexus at 20. Both times I lost miserably. I'd post replays but this is really more of a general question than a game-specific incidence. If it helps, one opponent went 16CC and another went a early as 14CC. You're not way behind if you just play standard, especially if you plant your nexus down before any gateway units. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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