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On September 25 2012 01:10 NVRLand wrote:Where did I go wrong in this pvp where I faced a proxy 2gate? http://drop.sc/257343I always scout nat because I didn't think people would proxy the third since the distance to the main is so far... Anyway this was a kinda late proxy gate since I managed to get my first stalker out. However its damn hard to micro when he sends a single zealot to the mineral line... I thought I was doing fine, sending all my probes to his main to kill off his probes. Was it a pure micro win for him or did I go wrong in my attempt to hold the cheese? (Btw, the rage at the end... Cheesed for the 3rd game in a row...)
The best way is to simply set up your pylon and gate on the ramp and keep a zealot (or building, if it's viable) at the choke while you get a stalker or cannon behind it to fire away. If you're getting cheese often I'd consider that- especially against zerg, where you're forcing zerglings to 1v1 a zealot the entire time. One of the reasons forge fast expand is so popular is because it enables this to protect from rushes.
In this situation your probes are a little disposable- being able to hold position and move them around as makeshift obstacles while you kite zealots around the mineral line could have helped. All it takes is one probe in between a small mineral gap to have a very big wall, then just treat it like you're playing pac-man.
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On September 25 2012 01:24 Clarity_nl wrote:
Hey guys, dabbling in playing the other two races, my main is zerg.
PvP I'd really like to do a phoenix opening, but to my surprise there aren't many protoss guides to begin with, compared to zerg.
So if anyone could point me in the right direction I'd be very grateful.
I've seen a technical build which went like zealot/sentry/zealot with a stargate (2 on each gas for a while) into expand and I'd like to copy this, but I haven't managed to get a hold of a replay. Hopefully I was detailed enough!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350993
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On September 25 2012 01:43 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:24 Clarity_nl wrote:
Hey guys, dabbling in playing the other two races, my main is zerg.
PvP I'd really like to do a phoenix opening, but to my surprise there aren't many protoss guides to begin with, compared to zerg.
So if anyone could point me in the right direction I'd be very grateful.
I've seen a technical build which went like zealot/sentry/zealot with a stargate (2 on each gas for a while) into expand and I'd like to copy this, but I haven't managed to get a hold of a replay. Hopefully I was detailed enough! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350993
I guess that's what I get for searching "PvP Phoenix" instead of "PvP Stargate" hehe. Thank you!
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On September 25 2012 01:24 Clarity_nl wrote:
Hey guys, dabbling in playing the other two races, my main is zerg.
PvP I'd really like to do a phoenix opening, but to my surprise there aren't many protoss guides to begin with, compared to zerg.
So if anyone could point me in the right direction I'd be very grateful.
I've seen a technical build which went like zealot/sentry/zealot with a stargate (2 on each gas for a while) into expand and I'd like to copy this, but I haven't managed to get a hold of a replay. Hopefully I was detailed enough!
http://www.sc2planner.com/start.html
This is very helpful once you figure out how to change things easily, I'd suggest it.
Phoenix openings aren't a terrible idea. I've messed around with these and they're very potent vs. immortals- once stalkers are taken out. Considering the ground army protoss usually throws out only has stalkers as anti-air, you won't have much problem if you get void rays in while you grav beam the stalkers. Look out for cannon expands and templar archives though, feedback sniping is easy considering how short range the phoenix is.
I'd consider using the same thing against zerg rather than protoss tbh. All it takes is a hallucinated colossus or two and your opponent will shoot out roaches like crazy- easily picked off by void rays, then your phoenix group can run in, grav beam the queen and kill it, then supply block via overlord slaughter with the phoenix group. If you control the bases like that you're generally going to force them into slow overlord production (especially if you don't hunt the roaches, just wait and let them live) until they can re-tech and get anti air.
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Why don't we see more storm drops in SC2? A single HT in a prism doesn't seem like a huge investment for the potential damage. Are they generally just too easy to defend against to make it worth it?
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On September 25 2012 01:46 btwr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:24 Clarity_nl wrote:
Hey guys, dabbling in playing the other two races, my main is zerg.
PvP I'd really like to do a phoenix opening, but to my surprise there aren't many protoss guides to begin with, compared to zerg.
So if anyone could point me in the right direction I'd be very grateful.
I've seen a technical build which went like zealot/sentry/zealot with a stargate (2 on each gas for a while) into expand and I'd like to copy this, but I haven't managed to get a hold of a replay. Hopefully I was detailed enough! http://www.sc2planner.com/start.htmlThis is very helpful once you figure out how to change things easily, I'd suggest it. Phoenix openings aren't a terrible idea. I've messed around with these and they're very potent vs. immortals- once stalkers are taken out. Considering the ground army protoss usually throws out only has stalkers as anti-air, you won't have much problem if you get void rays in while you grav beam the stalkers. Look out for cannon expands and templar archives though, feedback sniping is easy considering how short range the phoenix is. I'd consider using the same thing against zerg rather than protoss tbh. All it takes is a hallucinated colossus or two and your opponent will shoot out roaches like crazy- easily picked off by void rays, then your phoenix group can run in, grav beam the queen and kill it, then supply block via overlord slaughter with the phoenix group. If you control the bases like that you're generally going to force them into slow overlord production (especially if you don't hunt the roaches, just wait and let them live) until they can re-tech and get anti air.
It seems like a real nifty program, but I think it won't click in my head all that well, I'd rather just play it out a couple of times, but thank you!
From what I've seen and experienced myself with phoenix openings is that they are guaranteed damage. 3 phoenix will kill 3 probes when they first hit, and if you are careful they can continue to do damage for the remainder of the game unless they build static defense, which I also consider damage.
What you said about this opening against zerg is very theory-crafty though, I feel. I imagine you're thinking about a stargate follow up after FFE, but hallucination seems like a weird investment if you're going stargate. A good zerg will have lings poking anyway, and will see what's up when your core is going after wg is done. Hallucination in my mind is mainly used for scouting, and since you open stargate you already get all the information you want.
On September 25 2012 01:53 ThirdDegree wrote:
Why don't we see more storm drops in SC2? A single HT in a prism doesn't seem like a huge investment for the potential damage. Are they generally just too easy to defend against to make it worth it?
I wish I saw more of these too =] I imagine the answer is not "it's just not effective" and more closer to "It's hard to pull off"
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On September 25 2012 01:53 ThirdDegree wrote:
Why don't we see more storm drops in SC2? A single HT in a prism doesn't seem like a huge investment for the potential damage. Are they generally just too easy to defend against to make it worth it?
It is pretty easy to move workers out of the line before they're killed, and by the time an enemy has enough numbers on the line they'll usually have defense of some sort against drops. It can be incredibly successful against a third expansion that's left relatively undefended where someone just moves all of the workers from a nearly mined-out main. Having a HT on high ground above an enemy throwaway expansion can be very helpful as well. If you harass each time you storm the line it can take a few rounds for them to catch on and send reinforcement.
The reason it's not seen too often is because protoss can drop a ton of units with little investment via warp gate, so defenses get set up more than against other races.
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On September 25 2012 02:04 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:46 btwr wrote:On September 25 2012 01:24 Clarity_nl wrote:
Hey guys, dabbling in playing the other two races, my main is zerg.
PvP I'd really like to do a phoenix opening, but to my surprise there aren't many protoss guides to begin with, compared to zerg.
So if anyone could point me in the right direction I'd be very grateful.
I've seen a technical build which went like zealot/sentry/zealot with a stargate (2 on each gas for a while) into expand and I'd like to copy this, but I haven't managed to get a hold of a replay. Hopefully I was detailed enough! http://www.sc2planner.com/start.htmlThis is very helpful once you figure out how to change things easily, I'd suggest it. Phoenix openings aren't a terrible idea. I've messed around with these and they're very potent vs. immortals- once stalkers are taken out. Considering the ground army protoss usually throws out only has stalkers as anti-air, you won't have much problem if you get void rays in while you grav beam the stalkers. Look out for cannon expands and templar archives though, feedback sniping is easy considering how short range the phoenix is. I'd consider using the same thing against zerg rather than protoss tbh. All it takes is a hallucinated colossus or two and your opponent will shoot out roaches like crazy- easily picked off by void rays, then your phoenix group can run in, grav beam the queen and kill it, then supply block via overlord slaughter with the phoenix group. If you control the bases like that you're generally going to force them into slow overlord production (especially if you don't hunt the roaches, just wait and let them live) until they can re-tech and get anti air. It seems like a real nifty program, but I think it won't click in my head all that well, I'd rather just play it out a couple of times, but thank you! From what I've seen and experienced myself with phoenix openings is that they are guaranteed damage. 3 phoenix will kill 3 probes when they first hit, and if you are careful they can continue to do damage for the remainder of the game unless they build static defense, which I also consider damage. What you said about this opening against zerg is very theory-crafty though, I feel. I imagine you're thinking about a stargate follow up after FFE, but hallucination seems like a weird investment if you're going stargate. A good zerg will have lings poking anyway, and will see what's up when your core is going after wg is done. Hallucination in my mind is mainly used for scouting, and since you open stargate you already get all the information you want. Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:53 ThirdDegree wrote:
Why don't we see more storm drops in SC2? A single HT in a prism doesn't seem like a huge investment for the potential damage. Are they generally just too easy to defend against to make it worth it? I wish I saw more of these too =] I imagine the answer is not "it's just not effective" and more closer to "It's hard to pull off"
The reason I mention hallucinate is because I rely on it heavily, so no matter which builds I work off of it's almost always involved unless I see cannons or very quick tech towards detectors. Something far more viable without it is to go towards quick stalker harassment without any zealots involved. That alone will usually set off roach production from my experience.
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How do you decide on the placement of your first pylon in a pvr?
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On September 25 2012 05:50 Arcainhunter wrote:
How do you decide on the placement of your first pylon in a pvr?
Typically best this to do is plan on 13 gating with 9 pylon scout. Your first pylon will be partially blocking the ramp, your gate will be diagonal to it so that there is a single spaced gap in between the two. The exact way to do this can be searched elsewhere. The gap that is left is small enough for a single zealot to block it, but it can be difficult to get the exact position down. Once you scout your opponent, the building placement becomes more clear.
Note: There are a few threads on PvR because of this very problem, they are good reads. They basically deal with how PvR is allegedly unfair since PvZ is a lowground pylon while PvP and PvT are high ground pylons and the openers for each matchup are executed in a vastly different manner making it a disadvantage to play P in a PvR since FFE in the other two matchups is basically a bo loss for most leagues.
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On September 25 2012 02:06 btwr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 01:53 ThirdDegree wrote:
Why don't we see more storm drops in SC2? A single HT in a prism doesn't seem like a huge investment for the potential damage. Are they generally just too easy to defend against to make it worth it? It is pretty easy to move workers out of the line before they're killed, and by the time an enemy has enough numbers on the line they'll usually have defense of some sort against drops. It can be incredibly successful against a third expansion that's left relatively undefended where someone just moves all of the workers from a nearly mined-out main. Having a HT on high ground above an enemy throwaway expansion can be very helpful as well. If you harass each time you storm the line it can take a few rounds for them to catch on and send reinforcement. The reason it's not seen too often is because protoss can drop a ton of units with little investment via warp gate, so defenses get set up more than against other races.
I don't really think that's the reason why, I think storm drops are not very common because the alternative - simply warping in zealots/dts - is both a smaller economic investment and a smaller APM investment, and can potentially do just as much damage if not more.
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On September 25 2012 01:53 ThirdDegree wrote:
Why don't we see more storm drops in SC2? A single HT in a prism doesn't seem like a huge investment for the potential damage. Are they generally just too easy to defend against to make it worth it?
lets go over the matchups
PvP- You mostly don't get storm it has become a little popular lately because Hero was doing it in PvPs but mostly you don't have the gas to get storm while getting a good archon count up. So Storm drops don't happen to much also Cannons in every mineral line at that stage of the game due to DT harass being almost game ending if your obs are out of place.
PvT- Zealot warp ins are much better because they cause Terran to bring their army back out of position.
PvZ- I do storm drops a lot in PvZ on big maps I always make like 2-3 warp prisms, This is probably the matchup where it is used the most since Late game every Protoss will get Storm
as to why we don't see it, if your opponent has good reaction Storm drops will kill maybe 4-5 workers losing your HT and Warp prism is worth way more then that. Also Drop defense is usually put up when Storm becomes readily enough that you can take HTs away from your army. So that greatly increases the risk to reward for Storm drops compared to just minerals that Zealots do and can kill buildings after the workers run away or die.
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On September 25 2012 06:20 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 02:06 btwr wrote:On September 25 2012 01:53 ThirdDegree wrote:
Why don't we see more storm drops in SC2? A single HT in a prism doesn't seem like a huge investment for the potential damage. Are they generally just too easy to defend against to make it worth it? It is pretty easy to move workers out of the line before they're killed, and by the time an enemy has enough numbers on the line they'll usually have defense of some sort against drops. It can be incredibly successful against a third expansion that's left relatively undefended where someone just moves all of the workers from a nearly mined-out main. Having a HT on high ground above an enemy throwaway expansion can be very helpful as well. If you harass each time you storm the line it can take a few rounds for them to catch on and send reinforcement. The reason it's not seen too often is because protoss can drop a ton of units with little investment via warp gate, so defenses get set up more than against other races. I don't really think that's the reason why, I think storm drops are not very common because the alternative - simply warping in zealots/dts - is both a smaller economic investment and a smaller APM investment, and can potentially do just as much damage if not more.
I think just your last point is most appealing and why storm drops aren't as common, your harass is way more resource efficient with just mineral dumps in zealots than with the gas investment spent in 1 templar that has to land a good storm and can't damage buildings.
EDIT: In games I need templar with army any way, rarely can I afford to split templar off from main army since Terran can easily match me ghost for templar and you shouldn't give up that advantage so easily. Also, storm drops do most damage when done on scvs mining minerals since you will get more scvs in the aoe, but guess what? Mule! Even though they are losing scvs and shouldn't be saving energy for mules in case of a storm drop, it still lessens the severity of the economic blow.
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How much APM does it take to cast a couple storms after a shift-clicked dropship path? Probably a comparable amount of APM required to stim 8 supply of marine/marauder and stutter step them a couple of times behind a mineral line. Putting things into that perspective, I think that Protosses generally don't do storm drops as often as they can because of other reasons besides the APM requirement. And if you think about the fact that a Shuttle costs only minerals, the gas investment of one or two HTs isn't exactly going to kill you in most cases because you're probably sitting at home in a defensive posture.
Personally, I think that players just forget that they can do Storm drops, more than anything else. I suppose there's also the factor or Robo build time, but usually when you can afford to send out 150 or 300 gas to go harass you probably either can't afford to constantly produce combat units out of your robo anyways, or you're at a stage in the game when you have multiple robos.
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I have a problem in PvT with terrans that go 1 base, 2 port banshee + mass marings all in. They also take their SCVs. When I try to tech to colosus, it's either not fast enought or banshees just kill me. When I try to go for templars it's even more not on time. And onlt gate units die too fast from marines. Terran also brings one raven, so DT expand is not an option.
What should I do?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 25 2012 09:17 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 09:12 Avicularia wrote:
I have a problem in PvT with terrans that go 1 base, 2 port banshee + mass marings all in. They also take their SCVs. When I try to tech to colosus, it's either not fast enought or banshees just kill me. When I try to go for templars it's even more not on time. And onlt gate units die too fast from marines. Terran also brings one raven, so DT expand is not an option.
What should I do? It's in the OP. Show nested quote +In order to defend this attack, it is essential that you scout it out. There is no other way. If you don't scout it or kill it very early, there is no hope of beating it. Ways to scout it include gateway pressure, stargate, pressure, but most commonly an observer. Any build that does not incorporate any of these is close to an autoloss versus the 2 port banshee build.
Now, once you scout the 2 port banshee, this is what you do:
Immediately throw up a stargate and a forge. Make only enough stalkers to fend off his initial banshee harass and then cut stalkers entirely. Constantly chornoboost phoenix out of your stargate and throw up ~5 cannons at your front. Make only zealots and sentries from now on, but don't overdo the sentries. ~3 is perfectly fine. Cut probes accordingly around 35 if you don't scout a command center.
This is the only way to fend off the 2 port banshee allin if you're on 2 base.
Ops, you're right. Sorry and thanks
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God, I hate Protoss sometimes. Block hatchery, get roach rushed.
Terran gets CC up before nexus in 1 gate expand.
I feel like I have to decide on a build at the beginning of the game and if it gets messed with I'll probably lose while T and Z can look at me and adapt to counter it.
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On September 25 2012 22:45 Jerubaal wrote:
God, I hate Protoss sometimes. Block hatchery, get roach rushed.
If someone comes to your base and messes up your economy, putting you far behind, what do you do? Do you just play from ultra-behind all game long, or do you go over to his base and try to get some damage of your own done? What would you do?
Terran gets CC up before nexus in 1 gate expand.
So go Nexus first or go even things out with a Warp Prism drop in his mineral line, if you're actually that bothered by his expansion being slightly ahead of yours. Or go 1gate triple Nexus.
I feel like I have to decide on a build at the beginning of the game and if it gets messed with I'll probably lose while T and Z can look at me and adapt to counter it.
None of your complaints actually have to do with playing Protoss; they're all a matter of you whining for the sake of whining. You think you're having problems because you play Protoss? Go play Zerg or Terran for a week and then you'll just be complaining about that race, next. I assume you're posting this rant in this thread, the Help Me thread, because you want advice. Here's some: Be a man. Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Any race has the capability of being adaptive and reactive, so cut the waterworks and post your replays so we can actually help you.
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Hello everyone! I have a question regarding PvZ (I apologize for not having a replay, but I don't think I'll need one unless someone thinks I do, so let me know).
I was playing a game on Cloud Kingdom and opened with a FFE. The Zerg made a Hatchery in my Natural and let it finish, which I respond with building 2 cannons (1 behind my wall-off and another close to the hatchery to kill it). The Zerg player manages to get a Queen out before the Hatchery dies and lays down a Creep Tumor in my natural away from the cannons but within range so the creep prevents me from building an expansion there.
I'm not exactly sure what the proper response to this is. Would I 1) Accept that my expansion is delayed and just tech to Robo in order to kill off the Tumors (since he put in 450 minerals in the beginning to block my expo) or 2) Go for a counterpush?
I decided to go for 2 since I never seen this before and got hard-countered since he had spine crawlers up and Roaches by the time I made it to his natural.
If there's a way to prevent the Creep Tumor from building, please let me know. Thanks!
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EPT
