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United States8476 Posts
On September 26 2012 02:18 Mugya wrote:
Hello everyone! I have a question regarding PvZ (I apologize for not having a replay, but I don't think I'll need one unless someone thinks I do, so let me know).
I was playing a game on Cloud Kingdom and opened with a FFE. The Zerg made a Hatchery in my Natural and let it finish, which I respond with building 2 cannons (1 behind my wall-off and another close to the hatchery to kill it). The Zerg player manages to get a Queen out before the Hatchery dies and lays down a Creep Tumor in my natural away from the cannons but within range so the creep prevents me from building an expansion there.
I'm not exactly sure what the proper response to this is. Would I 1) Accept that my expansion is delayed and just tech to Robo in order to kill off the Tumors (since he put in 450 minerals in the beginning to block my expo) or 2) Go for a counterpush?
I decided to go for 2 since I never seen this before and got hard-countered since he had spine crawlers up and Roaches by the time I made it to his natural.
If there's a way to prevent the Creep Tumor from building, please let me know. Thanks!
The best way to prevent this is to estimate when the queen will pop out and surround it with probes. If you have access to GSL vods, MC vs Leenock shows a perfect response.
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On September 26 2012 02:42 monk. wrote:The best way to prevent this is to estimate when the queen will pop out and surround it with probes. If you have access to GSL vods, MC vs Leenock shows a perfect response.
Thank you for the response! I remember seeing a thread regarding that game in particular but I can't find it for the life of me.
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On September 26 2012 02:42 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 02:18 Mugya wrote:
Hello everyone! I have a question regarding PvZ (I apologize for not having a replay, but I don't think I'll need one unless someone thinks I do, so let me know).
I was playing a game on Cloud Kingdom and opened with a FFE. The Zerg made a Hatchery in my Natural and let it finish, which I respond with building 2 cannons (1 behind my wall-off and another close to the hatchery to kill it). The Zerg player manages to get a Queen out before the Hatchery dies and lays down a Creep Tumor in my natural away from the cannons but within range so the creep prevents me from building an expansion there.
I'm not exactly sure what the proper response to this is. Would I 1) Accept that my expansion is delayed and just tech to Robo in order to kill off the Tumors (since he put in 450 minerals in the beginning to block my expo) or 2) Go for a counterpush?
I decided to go for 2 since I never seen this before and got hard-countered since he had spine crawlers up and Roaches by the time I made it to his natural.
If there's a way to prevent the Creep Tumor from building, please let me know. Thanks! The best way to prevent this is to estimate when the queen will pop out and surround it with probes. If you have access to GSL vods, MC vs Leenock shows a perfect response.
I usually just chrono a zealot and focus the creep tumor when it's builiding, or pull some probes to kill it.
Estimating when the queen will pop is hard 
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On September 26 2012 02:18 Mugya wrote:
Hello everyone! I have a question regarding PvZ (I apologize for not having a replay, but I don't think I'll need one unless someone thinks I do, so let me know).
I was playing a game on Cloud Kingdom and opened with a FFE. The Zerg made a Hatchery in my Natural and let it finish, which I respond with building 2 cannons (1 behind my wall-off and another close to the hatchery to kill it). The Zerg player manages to get a Queen out before the Hatchery dies and lays down a Creep Tumor in my natural away from the cannons but within range so the creep prevents me from building an expansion there.
I'm not exactly sure what the proper response to this is. Would I 1) Accept that my expansion is delayed and just tech to Robo in order to kill off the Tumors (since he put in 450 minerals in the beginning to block my expo) or 2) Go for a counterpush?
I decided to go for 2 since I never seen this before and got hard-countered since he had spine crawlers up and Roaches by the time I made it to his natural.
If there's a way to prevent the Creep Tumor from building, please let me know. Thanks!
You pretty much auto-lose if they get a creep tumor down. The steps to prevent this are:
(1) See his drone coming, and hatch block your natural with a probe. There's no good reason for Z to send an early drone scout, so if they do, you should expect that they're up to something.
(2) Kill his hatchery before it finishes. You really only want to make 1 cannon, so it's good practice to have your building layout allow a single cannon to cover both your wall and the spot where your nexus would go. If you start the cannon early, you can kill the hatch before it finishes just by pulling a couple probes early on to supplement the cannon's DPS.
(3) If you screw up on the first two steps, don't let the hatch finish a queen. Pull more probes.
(4) If you've screwed up badly enough to let the queen finish, try to snipe the tumor with whatever units you have nearby before it burrows and becomes untoucahble. But really, if they got out a queen, the creep spread from the hatch alone means you can't possibly play a macro game (unless you've been denying his expansions at the same time). You might as well 4 gate at this point.
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On September 26 2012 04:17 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 02:18 Mugya wrote:
Hello everyone! I have a question regarding PvZ (I apologize for not having a replay, but I don't think I'll need one unless someone thinks I do, so let me know).
I was playing a game on Cloud Kingdom and opened with a FFE. The Zerg made a Hatchery in my Natural and let it finish, which I respond with building 2 cannons (1 behind my wall-off and another close to the hatchery to kill it). The Zerg player manages to get a Queen out before the Hatchery dies and lays down a Creep Tumor in my natural away from the cannons but within range so the creep prevents me from building an expansion there.
I'm not exactly sure what the proper response to this is. Would I 1) Accept that my expansion is delayed and just tech to Robo in order to kill off the Tumors (since he put in 450 minerals in the beginning to block my expo) or 2) Go for a counterpush?
I decided to go for 2 since I never seen this before and got hard-countered since he had spine crawlers up and Roaches by the time I made it to his natural.
If there's a way to prevent the Creep Tumor from building, please let me know. Thanks! You pretty much auto-lose if they get a creep tumor down. The steps to prevent this are: (1) See his drone coming, and hatch block your natural with a probe. There's no good reason for Z to send an early drone scout, so if they do, you should expect that they're up to something. (2) Kill his hatchery before it finishes. You really only want to make 1 cannon, so it's good practice to have your building layout allow a single cannon to cover both your wall and the spot where your nexus would go. If you start the cannon early, you can kill the hatch before it finishes just by pulling a couple probes early on to supplement the cannon's DPS. (3) If you screw up on the first two steps, don't let the hatch finish a queen. Pull more probes. (4) If you've screwed up badly enough to let the queen finish, try to snipe the tumor with whatever units you have nearby before it burrows and becomes untoucahble. But really, if they got out a queen, the creep spread from the hatch alone means you can't possibly play a macro game (unless you've been denying his expansions at the same time). You might as well 4 gate at this point.
You can also cannon his natural (3pylon block) if you see him put a hatch in your natural. That way, even if the hatch finishes, you're still good as long as he doesn't get a creep tumor down.
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Hello TL ! I'm a silver player (although playing some gold/plat players from time to time :p) and would some advices concerning one particular game. PvT, i open as standard as possible, scout terran taking gas so i decide not to go 1 Gate expand. Normally i would have gone for quick robo then a second gate before expanding, but not this time, dunno what came up in my mind. Anyway, i end up going 3 Gates then expo, add a robo and 2 additional gates before going for "Creator style". I know that Creator style is relying early on on 3 gates robo, with 2 obs then 2 immos, but the again, scumbag brain going wild. I spot an incoming push with my first obs, hold it a first time, but the second time he stims, i kinda screwed, yet i don't know what exactly. For there it's gg, eventhough i had my 3rd building. I know i have one major problem against terrans, and it's that whenever i forcefield a ramp, units go in there as if i was moving (not a-moving) and i still cannot avoid this from happening. Apart from that, i don't really know what i could have done better.
Here's the link : https://dl.dropbox.com/u/95622471/Royaume des nuages EC.SC2Replay
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Italy12246 Posts
First off, it's better to use drop.sc for replay sharing.
On to the game: if you are scared by a Terran gas opening and want to play it safe, it's better to open with a really safe 2gate obs expand than 3gate expand, which is more of an aggressive opening. 2gate obs gives you amazing scouting information and a good unit count, so you should be able to deflect any push or harass opening. That said, a well played 1gate fe should also be able to hold anything. Take a look at these articles and make sure your opening is as solid and tight as possible:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136 (perfect build to learn when you start learning 1gate fe)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339 (slightly greedier build)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=204010 (the safest PvT opening ever, these days it's actually too safe)
Try focusing on being as constant as possible in your probe production as you do have gaps in production, but i'm sure you are aware of that already.
The midgame build you go for isn't exactly creator's double forge, but it's reasonable.
The cause of your loss are a combination of sloppy macro (you could have had colossi a lot faster and you float resources), a fairly poor early game army composition (7 sentries is overkill, you don't take advantage of how many ff's you invest; these days the pvt standard is 3-4), and biggest of them all, a couple of terrible engagements at your natural's ramp. If you forcefield his bio away from your ramp, you should pull back and wait until your upgrades and colossi kick in, rather than sacrificing your zealots in a choke where they can't get any surface area, letting your sentries get sniped when you could have forcefielded his units away and waited until you had your aoe and upgrades ready. Your sentries are a support unit that makes your stalkers and zealots more effective gives you good positioning (ie cutting him off at your natural's ramp like you did), not a unit that can outgun a stimmed bio army supported by medivacs.
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Nice blue background, Teoita. Now you can sit at the cool kids table.
Also to add to what you said, I don't really like how we call lower economy openings like 2g robo "safe." They're safe in the sense that you won't die to a super-early rush, but they set you up to lose later on when your opponent rolls you with a standard macro build. It seems like how we use the word "safe" could lead players into thinking they'll at least be even in the game after using the opening, but in reality, "safe" builds often put the player well behind. To my mind, you're much safer with a 1g FE than with a "safe" build like 2g robo expand because you won't auto-lose to economy openings.
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Italy12246 Posts
Thanks, totally didn't see it coming haha.
I have to admit, my posts do look good in blue :D
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Haha, I thought that blue was new!
Congrats Teoita and thanks for the help in the past 
Sort of silly question:
If my computer can't handle lategame PvZ (thousands of broodlings/IT/roach/ling + storm etc), is it immoral to just all-in?
I have 100% success rate with 7gate +2 blink stalker...
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Italy12246 Posts
I'm in the same spot and yeah i tend to play gay as fuck, 2 base timings or pre hive timings.
The best gay build of them all is when i channel my inner BabyK and go 4gate+1 into DT, somehow, someway mid master players can't hold off the zealots cost effectively and then dt's show up and they lose 20 drones. It's addicting.
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Hey I'm a high masters toss and am looking at different styles in pvt. Right now what seems to be the best way to open collusus. As in is rushing collosus the norm or going dual forge or a single forge. I'm really trying how to play against a standard terran.
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On September 26 2012 06:51 Mavvie wrote:
Sort of silly question:
If my computer can't handle lategame PvZ (thousands of broodlings/IT/roach/ling + storm etc), is it immoral to just all-in?
I have 100% success rate with 7gate +2 blink stalker...
Z's lategame is super-favored vs P in WoL, so it'd be dumb not to mix in a healthy dose of all-ins. The Korean scene is lots of 2-base all-ins mixed up with feigning 2-base all-ins to take a third, and then doing a 3-base all-in right before broods. If those fail, P scrambles to get a mothership and hopes Z screws up and lets vortexes win.
Hopefully, tempests will help.
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Just a quick question, in PvP, if I want to go 1 gate expand into 3 gate robo, is it better to get 3 gates or robo first? I lost to a 4gate on Taldarim yesterday and the other guy said you can only go 4gate on that map because of no ramp. I seriously doubt that but I am not sure if I should get that robo first or the 3gates first.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 26 2012 22:53 Switch24 wrote:
Just a quick question, in PvP, if I want to go 1 gate expand into 3 gate robo, is it better to get 3 gates or robo first? I lost to a 4gate on Taldarim yesterday and the other guy said you can only go 4gate on that map because of no ramp. I seriously doubt that but I am not sure if I should get that robo first or the 3gates first.
He's generally right. You always have to 4 gate or do a talderim-specific anti-4 gate build on that map.
1 gate FE in PvP is a risky build and no matter what you do, it won't be safe unless you got some amazingly lucky scouting. 1 gate expand into robo seems especially bad unless you know your opponent went for a FE as well.
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would I better going with a stargate build? phoenix play? That map is difficult depending on your spawn locations.
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Italy12246 Posts
On TDA, you can't hold a 4gate with anything but a 4gate of your own, 3 stalker rush into 4gate, or a really specific 3gate build.
The reason for that is that the change that made 4 gate much less prevalent on other maps is (for the most part) the ability to use a single forcefield on a ramp to make sure a high ground warp in doesn't happen if he only has a low ground pylon.
On TDA, your main isn't on the high ground and there is no point you can block off with a single forcefield. This makes it extremely hard if not impossible to hold off a 4gate, even a delayed one, with any build that invests in tech that will not pay off by the time his attack comes.
The same goes for Bel'shir Beach, Scrap Station, Crevasse (to a lesser extent) and that city themed beta map with the wide ramp.
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On September 26 2012 23:04 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 22:53 Switch24 wrote:
Just a quick question, in PvP, if I want to go 1 gate expand into 3 gate robo, is it better to get 3 gates or robo first? I lost to a 4gate on Taldarim yesterday and the other guy said you can only go 4gate on that map because of no ramp. I seriously doubt that but I am not sure if I should get that robo first or the 3gates first. He's generally right. You always have to 4 gate or do a talderim-specific anti-4 gate build on that map. 1 gate FE in PvP is a risky build and no matter what you do, it won't be safe unless you got some amazingly lucky scouting. 1 gate expand into robo seems especially bad unless you know your opponent went for a FE as well.
What build is less risky than 1 gate FE--especially if you scout your opponent on 2 gas?
Blink obs is considered the "safe" build, but it's countered by a lot of FE builds. There are less FE builds that counter blink obs on maps with lots of cliff line, but 1 gate FE into blink will wipe the floor with a blink obs build on any map.
Phoenix openings get rocked by gateway FE builds.
Robo openings are behind against 1 gate FE, especially if the FE build gets a couple sentries and then techs robo.
My point is that every PvP opening has a chance to be hard-countered. The risk associated with any given build is equal to the risk that your opponent will choose the hard counter to your build. FE builds are countered by early gateway pressure, which is pretty rare in the current metagame, especially as a follow-up to 2-gas openings. So while you're definitely not safe with a FE opening, you're not safe with any opening, and after scouting 2 gas, gambling that they won't do a warpgate timing is often one of your best bets.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 27 2012 04:30 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 23:04 monk. wrote:On September 26 2012 22:53 Switch24 wrote:
Just a quick question, in PvP, if I want to go 1 gate expand into 3 gate robo, is it better to get 3 gates or robo first? I lost to a 4gate on Taldarim yesterday and the other guy said you can only go 4gate on that map because of no ramp. I seriously doubt that but I am not sure if I should get that robo first or the 3gates first. He's generally right. You always have to 4 gate or do a talderim-specific anti-4 gate build on that map. 1 gate FE in PvP is a risky build and no matter what you do, it won't be safe unless you got some amazingly lucky scouting. 1 gate expand into robo seems especially bad unless you know your opponent went for a FE as well. What build is less risky than 1 gate FE--especially if you scout your opponent on 2 gas? Blink obs is considered the "safe" build, but it's countered by a lot of FE builds. There are less FE builds that counter blink obs on maps with lots of cliff line, but 1 gate FE into blink will wipe the floor with a blink obs build on any map. Phoenix openings get rocked by gateway FE builds. Robo openings are behind against 1 gate FE, especially if the FE build gets a couple sentries and then techs robo. My point is that every PvP opening has a chance to be hard-countered. The risk associated with any given build is equal to the risk that your opponent will choose the hard counter to your build. FE builds are countered by early gateway pressure, which is pretty rare in the current metagame, especially as a follow-up to 2-gas openings. So while you're definitely not safe with a FE opening, you're not safe with any opening, and after scouting 2 gas, gambling that they won't do a warpgate timing is often one of your best bets.
I think this depends on your definition of "risky". It's generally accepted that all builds are less risky than 1 gate FE, and that's usually the kind of advice I seek to give. All the builds you've mentioned, including blink obs, phoenix, and robo openings are generally considered safer options, because they are still playable against every other build and don't get too far ahead of any build. In contrast, your definition takes into account the metagame; usually you will get ahead of 1 gate FE, but sometimes you will die. In other words, you'll always comes out significantly ahead of or behind of most other builds, which I would say is the very definition of risky. I suspect your reasoning also has to do with the NA metagame, where aggression and pressure are much less common compared to KR or the pro scene.
Another build wihch you didn't mention is the very popular 2 gate expand, which, imo is much "safer" than the 1 gate expand, even by your definition.
And honestly, are you going to tell newer players to open up 1 gate FE every game? This will lead to many silly loses and a warped sense of the game.
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I'm pretty sure I can hold any blink/obs all-in with my 1 gate FE build (except on stupid maps like antiga or cloud kingdom). In fact in one of Naniwa's game in GSL I think he almost holds it against someone (Genius maybe ?) on cloud kingdom, which proves that's it's easily doable on normal maps. I was under the impression that 1 gate FE were only bad against delayed Gate pressure and phoenix builds ?
@switch : I don't bother playing PvP on tal darim anymore. Just cannon rush with 3 pylon block in the spot behind their minerals, works pretty well for me @700-800 master.
@everyone: Lately I've been skipping scouting in PvP. The idea is that scouting only tells you good information if your opponent screws up something. The information I usually get from scouting makes me get an extra zealot or something and I've realized that if I don't scout that means around 200 extra minerals @7:00 so I can get 1 or 2 extra zealots anyway in my build. I've noticed some pros skip scouting as well, what exactly are the risks of doing this ?
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EPT
