EPTAny thoughts from you folks?
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 337
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27013 Posts
Any thoughts from you folks? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 28 2012 11:12 Wombat_NI wrote: Just wondering what the general is playing PvZ nowadays? I hate 2 base allins but I am struggling quite a bit with the trend towards earlier hivetech and better drop defense of the Zergs I tend to play nowadays. Ideally I'd play a more lategame-centric, but it seems to me that good 2 base timings and pre-brood collosi pushes are the way to go. Any thoughts from you folks? I'm awful at PvZ, so I might be completely wrong about this, but it seems like if you want to play late-game PvZ on even footing, you should go for a tinely third and tech toward carrier/archon/storm with a 4th base and maybe some zealot drops thrown in along the way. Zergs are teching so fast these days that if you go for meaningful pressure before T4, you won't get your anti-broodlord tech out in time to stay alive. In my experience, the straight-to-carriers gameplan can work okay, but it's effectively a No Rush 25 for both sides. You'll want to gouge your eyes out after a couple games. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27013 Posts
On September 28 2012 11:45 kcdc wrote: I'm awful at PvZ, so I might be completely wrong about this, but it seems like if you want to play late-game PvZ on even footing, you should go for a tinely third and tech toward carrier/archon/storm with a 4th base and maybe some zealot drops thrown in along the way. Zergs are teching so fast these days that if you go for meaningful pressure before T4, you won't get your anti-broodlord tech out in time to stay alive. In my experience, the straight-to-carriers gameplan can work okay, but it's effectively a No Rush 25 for both sides. You'll want to gouge your eyes out after a couple games. Yeah, little things I've noticed about general trends, at least that I've picked up on. 1.5 broke the game for me so haven't played since then, and about a month before that I haven't played. Blowing off the cobwebs a bit and have noticed: 1. Zerg aren't doing as much of the so-called 'Stephano style' roach play, instead teching harder to hive with less aggressive midgame. 2. By virtue of this you can get your third quicker than you would before, on average. 3. Mutas seem to have disappeared, or at least they're a lot less prevalent than I recall So just use those 3 factors (at least when grinding ladder) and attempt to plan accordingly would you advise? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
You can do a light pressure before taking your third, but once they have infestors, any pressure you attempt before BL's is gonna be pretty all-in. You can do a double-robo colossus timing, but if you don't do big damage, you'll die to the BL counter. You could cut the colossus tech and instead do an archon/storm/immortal timing teching SG behind it, but you can't afford to lose that army and fungal usually means you can't retreat. For the most part, it seems like your options are do an all-in or play No Rush 25. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
On September 28 2012 11:51 Wombat_NI wrote: Yeah, little things I've noticed about general trends, at least that I've picked up on. 1.5 broke the game for me so haven't played since then, and about a month before that I haven't played. Blowing off the cobwebs a bit and have noticed: 1. Zerg aren't doing as much of the so-called 'Stephano style' roach play, instead teching harder to hive with less aggressive midgame. 2. By virtue of this you can get your third quicker than you would before, on average. 3. Mutas seem to have disappeared, or at least they're a lot less prevalent than I recall So just use those 3 factors (at least when grinding ladder) and attempt to plan accordingly would you advise? Well, there are a set of timings off 3 base you can use if you don't want to sit around for an air ball. There's the classic 3 collossus timing against infestors just before broods pop, though this isn't as good as it once was. There is also a blink stalker immortal composition that focuses on using warp prisms to harass while you have a mobile army to deny additional expansions. Teching to mothership and transitioning to Air is a little difficult with this composition though. It is disingenuous to present an easy to tech to air transition in the mid - late game but it is possible. The problem I have with trying to tech to air is that the upgrades are often poor and before you get a scary air army up you are very weak to an attack and you rely on a vortex to win the game. Lategame PvZ however is a very very strange spot as evidenced by HerO v Leenock last night. I don't want to say it is imbalanced, because the player with better control will often win, but lategame for protoss is very fragile in its tech switch to air which is good at dealing with brood lords as you need a critical mass of air and a LONG time to get upgrades up to make units like the carrier more worth it. I know this isn't the most helpful post but it basically boils down to: Playing Macro -- strong timing to punish fast tech zerg off 3 base? === Yes === choose collossus or blink immortal both good. Blink immortal incorporates faster DT and HT tech for archons and harass, is more mobile, requires better control but scales worse into the late late game offers more gas for transition later. Collossus scales better but has slower tech for storm/archons, less gas for ups and a transition later === No === Maybe you want to work on a sky toss style mass air earlier on type build? I don't do it, but a friend of mine does to great effect. On September 28 2012 12:07 kcdc wrote: Yeah, at least on NA ladder, Zergs don't really try to bust your third with roaches much anymore. If you let them see your third too early, they might make a dozen mutas on their way to hive. Mostly, they just turtle, make 12 infestors and 20 spines, and then they start cranking out BL's. You can do a light pressure before taking your third, but once they have infestors, any pressure you attempt before BL's is gonna be pretty all-in. You can do a double-robo colossus timing, but if you don't do big damage, you'll die to the BL counter. You could cut the colossus tech and instead do an archon/storm/immortal timing teching SG behind it, but you can't afford to lose that army and fungal usually means you can't retreat. For the most part, it seems like your options are do an all-in or play No Rush 25. I type too slow  you got there before I could. kcdc is smart, listen to him :D | ||
Drizzle.
United States6 Posts
2 shield upgrades? 1 weapon, 1 shield? 2 weapon upgrades? I have this idea in my head, that +2 shield Archons would be a pain in the ass, but maybe I'm just hallucinating. | ||
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webby01
Czech Republic22 Posts
 ). Before attacing you have to have lots of gateways at least 8 on 2 base timing is needed. Well placed proxy pylon and then reinforcing your attack with warping pure zealots and chronoing gates. That should do the trick.If you kill Z s 3rd but cant kill him youll hve plenty of gas to transition. Storm would be really easy and beneficial and also continuing upgrades. | ||
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joeyBanana
Germany77 Posts
just want to hear your opinions about 2 builds, i catched up at dreamhack. In PvT it was the Forge-Colossi Den-Forge Build by Hero on Cloud Kingdom vs Taeja and the other one was by Feast vs MilLord on Ohana, a +3 Timing/ "3-Base-Allin" with looots of Stalkers. Can i use them as my "improvement" and go-to builds? i worked my way up to Diamond without precisely knowing what to, playing on the fly. I wanted to use these builds cause they incorporate a 3rd and dont look too situational. do you agree guys or are these builds played towards the map and the opponents? you can find the reps in the DH pack or thr VODs, if youre not sure what im talking about. thanks in advance, you rock <3 | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On September 28 2012 11:12 Wombat_NI wrote: Just wondering what the general is playing PvZ nowadays? I hate 2 base allins but I am struggling quite a bit with the trend towards earlier hivetech and better drop defense of the Zergs I tend to play nowadays. Ideally I'd play a more lategame-centric, but it seems to me that good 2 base timings and pre-brood collosi pushes are the way to go. Any thoughts from you folks? Most all-ins are planned 2-base and 3-base timing attacks. Almost all of them are basically about a bunch of warpgates, backed by a specific set of tech/upgrades. Some of them are easier to transition into than others...the 3-base ones are especially more flexible because getting to 3 bases usually means a much more interactive game than just FFEing to 2 bases. Personally, I think that it's good to know how to all-in, but going all-in is about punishing your opponent for cutting corners--not just executing it like it's a 10-15 minute cheese. But, most of the time, that seems to be how the builds go. Then there's macro play, which typically involves maxing out on stalkers with some support units--Colossi, maybe some immortals, a mothership, some casters, eventually archons for a toilet. But the army is like 80% stalkers, game in and game out. You basically have a house of cards where the colossi have to deal with the infestors to protect your stalkers, your stalkers have to protect the colossi from corruptors, and then if there are brood lords you're all-in on a vortex or base trade. It's not like you don't have a chance, but you're basically looking to punish mistakes or you're not winning the late game with that composition--and that's the standard composition. I see a problem with this philosophy of play, but I understand how people arrive at that max-out composition. You keep building stalkers because they're kinda useful against everything, even if they're not particularly specialized against anything. The consensus, a few months back, was that the FFE was the best opening in PvZ because it gave the highest worker count at a benchmark while being basically safe from all-ins--and really strong against typical gas/pool openers. However, opening gateway has been coming back into style because it puts you really far ahead against early pools, and instead of cutting probes, you keep making them so you have a higher worker count for a couple of minutes, until the first inject's worth of drones kicks in. Then there's also the fact that you're building units instead of base defense, so you can apply pressure with your first few units and then go home 30 seconds before the speed timing, after doing damage. But, to answer your question, generally it's just FFE into a 2-base 7gate all-in most of the time. If it's not a 7gate all-in, it's a 3-base Colossus or mass stalker all-in with a timing planned to kill the zerg before brood lords. Armies are generally stalker-based throughout the game. I think that there are superior styles of play at all 3 stages: the opening, midgame, and endgame--but that's neither here nor there. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
How much better is CC first than 1-rax FE? The 2nd CC is up slightly earlier, and you'll get extra MULE energy out of that CC, but you're gonna lose MULE energy from the first CC. And I'd imagine that Terrans would cut SCVs for a bit after the CC to get barracks up in time to not die. I'd imagine CC first isn't really that different than 1-rax FE. As far as i know, it's actually quite close, not nearly as big of a deal as nexus first vs 1gate fe for example. If i scout a really fast cc (wether at 15 or 16-17 off one marine) i like to get my nexus up before units and ive never felt behind going into the midgame. I'm awful at PvZ, so I might be completely wrong about this, but it seems like if you want to play late-game PvZ on even footing, you should go for a tinely third and tech toward carrier/archon/storm with a 4th base and maybe some zealot drops thrown in along the way. Zergs are teching so fast these days that if you go for meaningful pressure before T4, you won't get your anti-broodlord tech out in time to stay alive. In my experience, the straight-to-carriers gameplan can work okay, but it's effectively a No Rush 25 for both sides. You'll want to gouge your eyes out after a couple games. A good game to look at if you want to go straight for carriers (almost too fast even) is this: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70607/?set=15&lang= . Also fuck infestors. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 28 2012 10:34 kcdc wrote: How much better is CC first than 1-rax FE? 3 extra SCVs, and 300-400 minerals ahead by the time Terran gets his first 2 Medivacs. | ||
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SpooN04
Canada106 Posts
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JCKE
United States52 Posts
On September 27 2012 01:17 Teoita wrote: On TDA, you can't hold a 4gate with anything but a 4gate of your own, 3 stalker rush into 4gate, or a really specific 3gate build. The reason for that is that the change that made 4 gate much less prevalent on other maps is (for the most part) the ability to use a single forcefield on a ramp to make sure a high ground warp in doesn't happen if he only has a low ground pylon. On TDA, your main isn't on the high ground and there is no point you can block off with a single forcefield. This makes it extremely hard if not impossible to hold off a 4gate, even a delayed one, with any build that invests in tech that will not pay off by the time his attack comes. The same goes for Bel'shir Beach, Scrap Station, Crevasse (to a lesser extent) and that city themed beta map with the wide ramp. Do you have a good 3gate build for TDA? I've heard casters talk about them but have no clue what kind of 3gate would be good against a 4gate. | ||
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Geiko
France1980 Posts
On September 28 2012 23:31 dachi wrote: Do you have a good 3gate build for TDA? I've heard casters talk about them but have no clue what kind of 3gate would be good against a 4gate. This is the build most casters refer to : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=275640 | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On September 28 2012 17:15 Drizzle. wrote: Let's say I make an early Archon timing push vs. Zerg (rest of army mixed, but likely Zealot heavy considering my high gas spending) and I have time/money for two upgrades. What upgrades would be most effective? 2 shield upgrades? 1 weapon, 1 shield? 2 weapon upgrades? I have this idea in my head, that +2 shield Archons would be a pain in the ass, but maybe I'm just hallucinating. If you do anything with archons relatively early I would recommend upgrading the zealots. At that point in the game you will get more mileage out of +1 attack/+1 armor than you will shields. | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
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Leru
Romania257 Posts
I always find myself playing weird in this types of situations, some from more experienced "toss" will be appreciated ! | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On September 29 2012 03:22 Leru wrote: Hi guys! I'm trying to learn protoss ( being platinum Z ) but I'm having a hard time against early bio , as in I know the terran will go 3-4 rax early on, what should my reaction be? Force field until colossus ? I always find myself playing weird in this types of situations, some from more experienced "toss" will be appreciated !I hate to sound like a broken record, but if you want specific, and useful advice; upload a replay. Because "how do you deal with early bio" is pretty generic, there are a lot of ways Terran can put on early pressure with bio units. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 29 2012 03:09 hooahah wrote: PvT question - in lategame, I rarely ever see anyone get the Mothership. Even though Vortex/Recall is so strong (espcially with how squishy Bio is vs Storm), I can't recall any Toss getting the Mothership in lategame PvT. Pros/Cons? Pros: ..... Cons: -EMP makes it an 8 supply paperweight, T has a million ghosts by the time you'd get it -Vikings kill the paperweight, T has a million vikings by the time you'd get it | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
forgot about that thing | ||
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