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On September 19 2012 22:17 SC2John wrote:
Could someone tell me the general timing for checking for a 3rd base in PvZ? I've been playing a lot of PvZ with FFE and I mostly just play by feel, but I've never been able to get an exact read on the point of diversion between zerg going 3 hatches or going 2-hatch aggression. Also, if you don't mind, could you explain toss's reaction to each of the following scenarios:
1) scout 3rd, no 3rd, poke into main, see gas
2) scout 3rd, no 3rd, probes dies before seeing gas or tech
3) scout 3rd, 3rd IS up, 3rd is somewhat late, poke into main, see gas
4) scout 3rd, 3rd IS up, 3rd is really early, no gas
Feel free to group things up if that makes it easier to answer.
Thanks!
A third that goes up anywhere between ~4:15 and 5:15 is normal.
1) Does he have just main gas, or all 4 gas? How does his drone count look? Are there speedlings? If his drone count seems low and/or he only has the gas in his main but not natural, I would be expecting a roach or baneling all-in. Otherwise it could just be 2 base lair play (which can also be an all-in, such as a fast drop, nydus, etc., but also can be muta or infestor into standard macro game). In other words keep trying to scout (ex. zealot sac), make sure you get robo or stargate asap to keep scouting, chrono warpgate tech, and if you get suspicious chrono out sentries and extra cannons. Don't hesitate to completely wall off.
2) Follow what I say in 1), except now you're suspicious. Don't over make sentries though (no more than 2-3) because they won't be very useful against fast muta or infestor.
3) Be suspicious of a 3 base all-in like that 3 base baneling/ling all-in, or 3 base roach/ling with no drones at the 3rd. Proceed normally but cautiously, make sure you get sentries early, and keep scouting for things like zergling speed or an abnormally large number of lings.
4) He's playing standard macro. React however you want.
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Canada13403 Posts
On September 19 2012 23:12 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 22:17 SC2John wrote:
Could someone tell me the general timing for checking for a 3rd base in PvZ? I've been playing a lot of PvZ with FFE and I mostly just play by feel, but I've never been able to get an exact read on the point of diversion between zerg going 3 hatches or going 2-hatch aggression. Also, if you don't mind, could you explain toss's reaction to each of the following scenarios:
1) scout 3rd, no 3rd, poke into main, see gas
2) scout 3rd, no 3rd, probes dies before seeing gas or tech
3) scout 3rd, 3rd IS up, 3rd is somewhat late, poke into main, see gas
4) scout 3rd, 3rd IS up, 3rd is really early, no gas
Feel free to group things up if that makes it easier to answer.
Thanks! A third that goes up anywhere between ~4:15 and 5:15 is normal. 1) Does he have just main gas, or all 4 gas? How does his drone count look? Are there speedlings? If his drone count seems low and/or he only has the gas in his main but not natural, I would be expecting a roach or baneling all-in. Otherwise it could just be 2 base lair play (which can also be an all-in, such as a fast drop, nydus, etc., but also can be muta or infestor into standard macro game). In other words keep trying to scout (ex. zealot sac), make sure you get robo or stargate asap to keep scouting, chrono warpgate tech, and if you get suspicious chrono out sentries and extra cannons. Don't hesitate to completely wall off. 2) Follow what I say in 1), except now you're suspicious. Don't over make sentries though (no more than 2-3) because they won't be very useful against fast muta or infestor. 3) Be suspicious of a 3 base all-in like that 3 base baneling/ling all-in, or 3 base roach/ling with no drones at the 3rd. Proceed normally but cautiously, make sure you get sentries early, and keep scouting for things like zergling speed or an abnormally large number of lings. 4) He's playing standard macro. React however you want.
Super well said. One thing that tips off the mass ling baneling off 3 base all in for me is speed around 8 minutes and a lot of lings if you see them.
Often I find that roaches come before speed for a 3 base roach ling all in, but speed comes quite early for a 3 base baneling all in.
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United States8476 Posts
On September 20 2012 00:42 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 23:12 rsvp wrote:On September 19 2012 22:17 SC2John wrote:
Could someone tell me the general timing for checking for a 3rd base in PvZ? I've been playing a lot of PvZ with FFE and I mostly just play by feel, but I've never been able to get an exact read on the point of diversion between zerg going 3 hatches or going 2-hatch aggression. Also, if you don't mind, could you explain toss's reaction to each of the following scenarios:
1) scout 3rd, no 3rd, poke into main, see gas
2) scout 3rd, no 3rd, probes dies before seeing gas or tech
3) scout 3rd, 3rd IS up, 3rd is somewhat late, poke into main, see gas
4) scout 3rd, 3rd IS up, 3rd is really early, no gas
Feel free to group things up if that makes it easier to answer.
Thanks! A third that goes up anywhere between ~4:15 and 5:15 is normal. 1) Does he have just main gas, or all 4 gas? How does his drone count look? Are there speedlings? If his drone count seems low and/or he only has the gas in his main but not natural, I would be expecting a roach or baneling all-in. Otherwise it could just be 2 base lair play (which can also be an all-in, such as a fast drop, nydus, etc., but also can be muta or infestor into standard macro game). In other words keep trying to scout (ex. zealot sac), make sure you get robo or stargate asap to keep scouting, chrono warpgate tech, and if you get suspicious chrono out sentries and extra cannons. Don't hesitate to completely wall off. 2) Follow what I say in 1), except now you're suspicious. Don't over make sentries though (no more than 2-3) because they won't be very useful against fast muta or infestor. 3) Be suspicious of a 3 base all-in like that 3 base baneling/ling all-in, or 3 base roach/ling with no drones at the 3rd. Proceed normally but cautiously, make sure you get sentries early, and keep scouting for things like zergling speed or an abnormally large number of lings. 4) He's playing standard macro. React however you want. Super well said. One thing that tips off the mass ling baneling off 3 base all in for me is speed around 8 minutes and a lot of lings if you see them. Often I find that roaches come before speed for a 3 base roach ling all in, but speed comes quite early for a 3 base baneling all in.
wow, way to indirectly hate
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Italy12246 Posts
Aaaaawww poor monk. There there.
3rd base generally goes down between 4:00 and 4:30. Closer to 4:00 if they skip the first queen(rare), closer to 4:30 if they don't (common). You should probably scout a bit after 4:30, I'd say 4:40ish so that your probe can spot incoming drones to the third on your way to his main should he chose a slightly later timing.
1 and 2 are similar. If he has no third by 4:40, and for some reason has no gas, he's playing inefficiently, so you might as well be safe. You have to account for all the 2 base all-in possibilities as well as all the 2 base macro plays. Baneling bust, Roach all-in, different nydus plays, proxy spines, 2 base baneling drop all-in, 2 base muta, 2 base infestor, 2 base low econ standard play. Basically, at least 2 cannons at front, start making sentries, get vision of your entire base, get some decently fast gates, have something versus both infestors and mutalisks. Seed vs Suhosin shows a decent response that covers all of these.
3 means they're either doing a 3 hatch baneling bust, a hatch cancel roach/baneling bust, or a defensive speedling opening, usually into fast lair. You'll can scout each of these out from speed timings, and again, sentries are key.
4 is standard, do w/e. Also, no fast speedlings, so fast 3rd base is safe.
Yeah monk's right. Generally if you don't 100% confirm 3 hatch no gas, be really really careful and active with your scouting. Lately i have seen lots of roach allins are REALLY damn similar to 3hatch no gas and if you don't 100% confirm he doesn't have gas, you can't really tell the difference. A good example is Best vs Hydra in match 1 of proleague semi finals, in which Best was completely destroyed by a roach allin that looked exactly like standard play.
I think you could tell the difference by drone counts and potentially timing on the second queen at the nat, but i haven't studied those games enough to be sure.
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What do I do against speedling openings when I FFE? I can usually zealot scout but it really depends on the map. It's so hard to tell if it's just speed expo or an all-in coming. In my laddering experience though, Fast speed almost always indicates an all-in, so I throw down a second cannon and try to chrono out a sentry. However, on some maps it seems like my wall-in is way more vulnerable, and I'll still die to an all-in even with a sentry and extra cannon.
How should I react to seeing a couple speedlings 4-6, with my zealot poke? Throw down 2 more cannons? Try to chrono another zealot out to scout?
Also, I've played against players who just move drones from their main to their nat to make it look like drones produced if they do see my zealot scout coming, what the hell do I do about that? Ridiculously smart play;;
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On September 20 2012 03:08 mizU wrote:
What do I do against speedling openings when I FFE? I can usually zealot scout but it really depends on the map. It's so hard to tell if it's just speed expo or an all-in coming. In my laddering experience though, Fast speed almost always indicates an all-in, so I throw down a second cannon and try to chrono out a sentry. However, on some maps it seems like my wall-in is way more vulnerable, and I'll still die to an all-in even with a sentry and extra cannon.
How should I react to seeing a couple speedlings 4-6, with my zealot poke? Throw down 2 more cannons? Try to chrono another zealot out to scout?
Also, I've played against players who just move drones from their main to their nat to make it look like drones produced if they do see my zealot scout coming, what the hell do I do about that? Ridiculously smart play;;
I chrono out 2 zealots, which will beat 4-6 lings. If he makes more lings than that, add 2-3 extra cannons, chrono sentries.
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Italy12246 Posts
Do you stick to one cannon or do you always get 2 blindly vs speed openings?
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I've looked around and been unable to find the proxy 2gate + cannon build that I've seen occasionally. Can anyone provide a build order so that I can look at it?
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On September 20 2012 03:11 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 03:08 mizU wrote:
What do I do against speedling openings when I FFE? I can usually zealot scout but it really depends on the map. It's so hard to tell if it's just speed expo or an all-in coming. In my laddering experience though, Fast speed almost always indicates an all-in, so I throw down a second cannon and try to chrono out a sentry. However, on some maps it seems like my wall-in is way more vulnerable, and I'll still die to an all-in even with a sentry and extra cannon.
How should I react to seeing a couple speedlings 4-6, with my zealot poke? Throw down 2 more cannons? Try to chrono another zealot out to scout?
Also, I've played against players who just move drones from their main to their nat to make it look like drones produced if they do see my zealot scout coming, what the hell do I do about that? Ridiculously smart play;; I chrono out 2 zealots, which will beat 4-6 lings. If he makes more lings than that, add 2-3 extra cannons, chrono sentries.
never thought of that ;;
good idea <3
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How can i prevent zerg from going all in whe nthey see my nexus first or forge expand build?
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On September 20 2012 05:20 ATOMICfy wrote:
How can i prevent zerg from going all in whe nthey see my nexus first or forge expand build?
You can't, but you should always win against these plays, or at least be extremely ahead.
On maps like Ohana/Shakuras/Cloud, I actually laugh my ass off when I get 6 pooled (or anything <15). Always 9 pylon scout, and if there's a pool started before 1:55 then you NEED a forge as soon as you see it. Ideally on 13, but on most maps I end up throwing it down at 14.
If you can hold the wall at your natural by building reinforcement gates/pylons (gates are better but don't always fit. Also make sure your cannon doesn't get unpowered!) you've won the game. ONLY attempt this on maps like Ohana/Shakuras/Cloud.
On other maps, throw down a pylon + cannon in your main (cover all probes, nexus, and try to secure a gas with it too. It should be placed somewhere that is /in/ the mineral line, so it will hurt your income.) in your main, and follow a standard 1base build. Gate->gas->pylon->core + zealot, etc. You can follow up however you like, I'd recommend a 1gate sentry expand, and beware of roach/ling all-ins, nydus all-ins, 1 base muta (this is actually a thing smh).
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On September 20 2012 05:20 ATOMICfy wrote:
How can i prevent zerg from going all in whe nthey see my nexus first or forge expand build?
You can't prevent them. They either chose to all-in before you dropped the Nexus (in which case you should have scouted it long before and dropped a forge) or they decide to commit to a (likely a two base) all-n in response. Just learn to scout their third hatch religiously -- with multiple probes if need be, and throw up an extra 1 or 2 blind cannons if you don't see it by 5:00-5:30.
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Any general advice against proxy rax from Terran? As in, ambiguous opener, gas or no gas. You can see if it's 1 or 2 rax, but the other rax is proxied on the map, and generally the SCV count is high enough to where it's tough to tell (eg, not an 11/11 or 12/12 rax). I usually do a 1 Gate expand, and against a gas opener if I play greedy I'll lose, granted. However, the non-gas variant is pretty tough, as I'll generally 1 Gate, 1 Robo and then 2 late Gates.. earlier gates at the expense of a Probe cut, later natural even though they're going "1 rax expand" due to the scouting, or what?
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I'm just really bad against 1 base rax->gas openers, I can never tell what he's doing. I go to defend rine pressure at my front, and then lose every probe to the hellions.
Here's a replay where I scouted no expo, some marines, couldn't see any tech. Then, he drops my main with hellions. Then runs into my natural with marines. Then picks up, then drops again in my main, killing every last probe.
http://drop.sc/255736
I don't know how to react. I do the standard MC's 1g FE -> 3gate robo (gates -> gas -> pylon -> stalker), and then this happens.
Thanks!
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On September 20 2012 07:53 Supah wrote:
Any general advice against proxy rax from Terran? As in, ambiguous opener, gas or no gas. You can see if it's 1 or 2 rax, but the other rax is proxied on the map, and generally the SCV count is high enough to where it's tough to tell (eg, not an 11/11 or 12/12 rax). I usually do a 1 Gate expand, and against a gas opener if I play greedy I'll lose, granted. However, the non-gas variant is pretty tough, as I'll generally 1 Gate, 1 Robo and then 2 late Gates.. earlier gates at the expense of a Probe cut, later natural even though they're going "1 rax expand" due to the scouting, or what?
You should be watching his command center's lights flashing and his general SCV count when the orbital begins. You have 25 seconds roughly from the start of the orbital to do all of this before the marine pops, which is more than enough.
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On September 20 2012 08:03 Mavvie wrote:I'm just really bad against 1 base rax->gas openers, I can never tell what he's doing. I go to defend rine pressure at my front, and then lose every probe to the hellions. Here's a replay where I scouted no expo, some marines, couldn't see any tech. Then, he drops my main with hellions. Then runs into my natural with marines. Then picks up, then drops again in my main, killing every last probe. http://drop.sc/255736I don't know how to react. I do the standard MC's 1g FE -> 3gate robo (gates -> gas -> pylon -> stalker), and then this happens. Thanks!
Well, you sorta did see the tech. When a Terran gets a gas (which you seen), and then makes multiple marines out of a single rax (which you also seen), it means he has gas being spent somewhere else that isn't in a techlab, and you know this because he built 5 marines from that 1 rax without a techlab. It's almost always a factory, which means you must now account for hellion drops, cloaked banshees, or any other factory/starport based all-in.
The follow up is almost always the same: Drop a faster robo (which you did), go stalker heavy the first few warp-ins (which you did). If you had started the obs immediately and would have planted 2-3 stalkers at the edge of your base in anticipation of the hellions (or banshees) which you could have known were potentially coming youd have held easily.
Other then that, you could have done a lot of damage with the two stalkers vs his five marines at the bottom of his ramp but opted not to. With no bunker vs a factory opening it's just free marines/depots -- he can't contest you without pulling scvs against your stalkers. Also needed to build a sentry instead of a stalker as the fourth and last unit. You'll notice it delayed the critical timing of your robo by 10-15 seconds, which is a 10-15 second slower obs vs cloaked banshees had that been the gas opening he chose.
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On September 20 2012 10:57 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 08:03 Mavvie wrote:I'm just really bad against 1 base rax->gas openers, I can never tell what he's doing. I go to defend rine pressure at my front, and then lose every probe to the hellions. Here's a replay where I scouted no expo, some marines, couldn't see any tech. Then, he drops my main with hellions. Then runs into my natural with marines. Then picks up, then drops again in my main, killing every last probe. http://drop.sc/255736I don't know how to react. I do the standard MC's 1g FE -> 3gate robo (gates -> gas -> pylon -> stalker), and then this happens. Thanks! Well, you sorta did see the tech. When a Terran gets a gas (which you seen), and then makes multiple marines out of a single rax (which you also seen), it means he has gas being spent somewhere else that isn't in a techlab, and you know this because he built 5 marines from that 1 rax without a techlab. It's almost always a factory, which means you must now account for hellion drops, cloaked banshees, or any other factory/starport based all-in. The follow up is almost always the same: Drop a faster robo (which you did), go stalker heavy the first few warp-ins (which you did). If you had started the obs immediately and would have planted 2-3 stalkers at the edge of your base in anticipation of the hellions (or banshees) which you could have known were potentially coming youd have held easily. Other then that, you could have done a lot of damage with the two stalkers vs his five marines at the bottom of his ramp but opted not to. With no bunker vs a factory opening it's just free marines/depots -- he can't contest you without pulling scvs against your stalkers. Also needed to build a sentry instead of a stalker as the fourth and last unit. You'll notice it delayed the critical timing of your robo by 10-15 seconds, which is a 10-15 second slower obs vs cloaked banshees had that been the gas opening he chose.
Thanks 
Aha, I would do that. Scout the tech but not realize it. I remember that now; more than 2 marines before add-on means factory/starport(often?). I got really freaking paranoid that it was a build I played against a few days ago; 3 rax reactor all in. It opens with a gas first, builds a bunker by the expo, then pushes with basically 6 rax worth of rines. I didn't pressure because I didn't want to lose units, and I felt I needed to get back to defend the drop play. I also thought he had more than 1 rax because of the number of marines. Guess not, I'm sure this game sense thing will develop soon enough.
Fourth unit is a sentry? Oops, makes sense I guess. I always have too much gas. I assume that the sentry pops in time with the first warp-in to defend a 2rax? I did notice that I had no minerals when I wanted to plant my robo.
Should I send my zealot/sentry to defend his marines, and use my stalkers to defend the drop? I hate hellions. The probes can't run and they can't stay. Well thanks, I'll just get more familiar with the build and scouting! I'm so not used to scouting for add-ons, except on factories (freaking double fact BFH timings were the bane of my existence in ZvT)
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Canada13403 Posts
On September 20 2012 01:43 monk. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 00:42 ZeromuS wrote:On September 19 2012 23:12 rsvp wrote:On September 19 2012 22:17 SC2John wrote:
Could someone tell me the general timing for checking for a 3rd base in PvZ? I've been playing a lot of PvZ with FFE and I mostly just play by feel, but I've never been able to get an exact read on the point of diversion between zerg going 3 hatches or going 2-hatch aggression. Also, if you don't mind, could you explain toss's reaction to each of the following scenarios:
1) scout 3rd, no 3rd, poke into main, see gas
2) scout 3rd, no 3rd, probes dies before seeing gas or tech
3) scout 3rd, 3rd IS up, 3rd is somewhat late, poke into main, see gas
4) scout 3rd, 3rd IS up, 3rd is really early, no gas
Feel free to group things up if that makes it easier to answer.
Thanks! A third that goes up anywhere between ~4:15 and 5:15 is normal. 1) Does he have just main gas, or all 4 gas? How does his drone count look? Are there speedlings? If his drone count seems low and/or he only has the gas in his main but not natural, I would be expecting a roach or baneling all-in. Otherwise it could just be 2 base lair play (which can also be an all-in, such as a fast drop, nydus, etc., but also can be muta or infestor into standard macro game). In other words keep trying to scout (ex. zealot sac), make sure you get robo or stargate asap to keep scouting, chrono warpgate tech, and if you get suspicious chrono out sentries and extra cannons. Don't hesitate to completely wall off. 2) Follow what I say in 1), except now you're suspicious. Don't over make sentries though (no more than 2-3) because they won't be very useful against fast muta or infestor. 3) Be suspicious of a 3 base all-in like that 3 base baneling/ling all-in, or 3 base roach/ling with no drones at the 3rd. Proceed normally but cautiously, make sure you get sentries early, and keep scouting for things like zergling speed or an abnormally large number of lings. 4) He's playing standard macro. React however you want. Super well said. One thing that tips off the mass ling baneling off 3 base all in for me is speed around 8 minutes and a lot of lings if you see them. Often I find that roaches come before speed for a 3 base roach ling all in, but speed comes quite early for a 3 base baneling all in. wow, way to indirectly hate
Upon re reading I realise i missed part of the post and made a post that could be taken at offense  Sorry man, no hate, I have used so many guides and taken so many tips from you I could never ever say anything bad about you or your advice.
Much <3
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On September 20 2012 11:07 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 10:57 rd wrote:On September 20 2012 08:03 Mavvie wrote:I'm just really bad against 1 base rax->gas openers, I can never tell what he's doing. I go to defend rine pressure at my front, and then lose every probe to the hellions. Here's a replay where I scouted no expo, some marines, couldn't see any tech. Then, he drops my main with hellions. Then runs into my natural with marines. Then picks up, then drops again in my main, killing every last probe. http://drop.sc/255736I don't know how to react. I do the standard MC's 1g FE -> 3gate robo (gates -> gas -> pylon -> stalker), and then this happens. Thanks! Well, you sorta did see the tech. When a Terran gets a gas (which you seen), and then makes multiple marines out of a single rax (which you also seen), it means he has gas being spent somewhere else that isn't in a techlab, and you know this because he built 5 marines from that 1 rax without a techlab. It's almost always a factory, which means you must now account for hellion drops, cloaked banshees, or any other factory/starport based all-in. The follow up is almost always the same: Drop a faster robo (which you did), go stalker heavy the first few warp-ins (which you did). If you had started the obs immediately and would have planted 2-3 stalkers at the edge of your base in anticipation of the hellions (or banshees) which you could have known were potentially coming youd have held easily. Other then that, you could have done a lot of damage with the two stalkers vs his five marines at the bottom of his ramp but opted not to. With no bunker vs a factory opening it's just free marines/depots -- he can't contest you without pulling scvs against your stalkers. Also needed to build a sentry instead of a stalker as the fourth and last unit. You'll notice it delayed the critical timing of your robo by 10-15 seconds, which is a 10-15 second slower obs vs cloaked banshees had that been the gas opening he chose. Thanks Aha, I would do that. Scout the tech but not realize it. I remember that now; more than 2 marines before add-on means factory/starport(often?). I got really freaking paranoid that it was a build I played against a few days ago; 3 rax reactor all in. It opens with a gas first, builds a bunker by the expo, then pushes with basically 6 rax worth of rines. I didn't pressure because I didn't want to lose units, and I felt I needed to get back to defend the drop play. I also thought he had more than 1 rax because of the number of marines. Guess not, I'm sure this game sense thing will develop soon enough. Fourth unit is a sentry? Oops, makes sense I guess. I always have too much gas. I assume that the sentry pops in time with the first warp-in to defend a 2rax? I did notice that I had no minerals when I wanted to plant my robo. Should I send my zealot/sentry to defend his marines, and use my stalkers to defend the drop? I hate hellions. The probes can't run and they can't stay. Well thanks, I'll just get more familiar with the build and scouting! I'm so not used to scouting for add-ons, except on factories (freaking double fact BFH timings were the bane of my existence in ZvT)
Only needed a few stalkers to stop the drop. Sentry at the ramp, and anything else at the front would have been more than plenty for a handfull of marines -- though to be honest half of them could have already been dead had you pressured his wall-in rather than back off. It's probably the most crucial form of scouting this build offers: forcing him to reveal any units he has at the wall if theres no bunker/marauder to stop you. One rax worth of marines are just no contest vs 2 stalkers at a wall-in.
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On September 19 2012 04:52 garsh0p wrote:
does anyone have a replay of the PvP 4 gate warp prism all in? also, are 4 gate blink all ins and phoenix gate all ins still good in PvP? replays or build orders of those would be great. thanks!
bump... replays would be helpful.
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EPT
