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The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 331

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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action.
Chandra
Profile Joined July 2011
United States123 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 12:50:12
September 20 2012 12:45 GMT
#6601
http://drop.sc/255874

In this PvZ I take a reasonably timed third while getting up colossus tech. My opponent attacks my third with a decently sizable roach/ling force, which I fend off okay, but then immediately afterwards drops my main with a big glob of roaches. I blink up my stalkers to clean them up, which I eventually do, but I take a lot of damage in the process while he continues to attack my third, forcing me to defend both locations. I eventually win this game, but I feel like I should have lost, as his drop/frontal attack did a lot of damage. I know my macro wasn't terribly good, and I neglected to take note of the fact that he had overlord speed with my second hallucination scout, which would have helped me scout the drop in advance. Either way, what could I have done better to defend this attack?
freeshooter
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States477 Posts
September 20 2012 15:48 GMT
#6602
Is there any place that explains how to do warp prism micro say with a colossus or immortals? Projectile damage units can shoot at colossus or immortal, but if the warp prism picks them up before the projectile hits, they can avoid damage. Or is there a broodwar explanation of how to use to shuttle, are SC2 and BW similar in the drop micro mechanics?
Yalaka
Profile Joined September 2012
2 Posts
September 20 2012 16:20 GMT
#6603
Hi,
I didn't play Sc2 for like one and a half year now. When I quit Sc2 I was playing in Diamond League with Protoss and now I wanna get there again, and even higher.
The thing is, I know nothing about current builds etc. So can you maybe give me like one build for each matchup?
I'd love to have some variation btw. and not 3 Gate + Robo in every matchup (I don't even know if thats still possible).
I would really appreciate your help A LOT.
Thanks in advance.

User was warned for this post
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-20 16:25:43
September 20 2012 16:24 GMT
#6604
Welcome to TL. Read the mod note on top of this thread, and these two http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=338554 while you are at it.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
M7Jagger
Profile Joined March 2012
Sweden237 Posts
September 20 2012 16:53 GMT
#6605
I just switched to Protoss (like a week ago or something) and my PvZ is fine, my PvT aswell, but I am completely lost in PvP, I have no clue what build I want to do. I once lost to some guy doing a 4gate w/blink so I tried to do the same thing but whenever I get to my oppents base he just hmore stuff than me and I cant reinforce because they always find my proxy pylon. Here's a replay of a game I just played.

http://drop.sc/255940

Thanks in advance.
Brace your're selves. Grammar, nazis are Coming
Supah
Profile Joined August 2010
708 Posts
September 20 2012 17:38 GMT
#6606
OK, unsure what to do here. Worst case scenario/cannon rush type of stuff.

http://drop.sc/255946

I scout him last [or rather, not at all, considering the timing], he scouts me first. Does this merit an instant Probe follow EVERY time? Is there no other way to deal with it? Looking at the replay, it seems I lost the game once the wall got off anyway, considering he had a block . The only major issue was that I was supply blocked for about 10 seconds, but that still would not have been enough time to beat down the extra Pylon that he was smartly waiting to make. Is it possible to prevent that second Pylon from going up (as in, the one doing the block?), was I just slow in clicking forward?
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
September 20 2012 19:16 GMT
#6607
Hi, i just recently started trying out protoss , and have a question regarding a PvZ build:

I usually go for a forge ffe followed up by a robo and gates and i aim for a warp prism harass into a third into blink stalker colossi. i really like that build because it feels fun and solid, but i still have some more specific questions about timings:

When do i actually get my third and fourth gas up? How many gates do i get after my robo? and how is the best/safest way to deal with an agressive roach ling follow up after my initial harrassment.

What i'm doing most of the time is getting 3rd and 4th gas up at about ~7:00, 4 gates after my robo and a colossi bay aswell as a twilight council, and after 2 or 3 immortals i usually take my third,but sometimes i get just overwhelmed by roach maxes.


I
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
September 20 2012 19:46 GMT
#6608
On September 21 2012 04:16 Nyxisto wrote:
Hi, i just recently started trying out protoss , and have a question regarding a PvZ build:

I usually go for a forge ffe followed up by a robo and gates and i aim for a warp prism harass into a third into blink stalker colossi. i really like that build because it feels fun and solid, but i still have some more specific questions about timings:

When do i actually get my third and fourth gas up? How many gates do i get after my robo? and how is the best/safest way to deal with an agressive roach ling follow up after my initial harrassment.

What i'm doing most of the time is getting 3rd and 4th gas up at about ~7:00, 4 gates after my robo and a colossi bay aswell as a twilight council, and after 2 or 3 immortals i usually take my third,but sometimes i get just overwhelmed by roach maxes.


I

Im a big fan of taking a faster third and later gates. Honestly, your nexus should be down around 7:30, meanwhile you're pressuring with your zealot/stalker/stalker to force lings/spines. You get map control, scouting, and hurt his economy almost for free!
I'm thinking taking a third gas at 6:30 or 6:45 would be optimal, with fourth gas after nexus, to afford sentry/observer/immortal.
Nexus first -> robo -> add 3 gates then nexus. Add a fast council for +2 and blink, and then it comes down to scouting.

Read my pvz blog for more details (I'm on a phone right now; typing is hard), but generally you scout his gas count, lair timing, and tech choice. Basically if hes doing a roach/ling max, add on zealot/sentry/immortal.
Add on colossi after you're safe; his hive is a LONG way out. Push at +3 and 3 colossi, win. Force field good unit, that is all.
Getting back into sc2 O_o
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
September 20 2012 22:31 GMT
#6609
I am really, really not sold on such a fast third tbh. I dislike the idea of screaming NO TWO BASE ALLIN YO; if you go for a more standard 9 ish minute third like in monk's macro pvz thread, it should be really hard for z to tell the difference between immortal allin and immortal timing. Skipping your extra gasses and getting a faster third to be just leaves zerg too free to do what he wishes.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
September 20 2012 22:39 GMT
#6610
On September 21 2012 07:31 Teoita wrote:
I am really, really not sold on such a fast third tbh. I dislike the idea of screaming NO TWO BASE ALLIN YO; if you go for a more standard 9 ish minute third like in monk's macro pvz thread, it should be really hard for z to tell the difference between immortal allin and immortal timing. Skipping your extra gasses and getting a faster third to be just leaves zerg too free to do what he wishes.

I suppose. I'm sure that at a higher level than mine, this is the case. However, most of the time my third isn't scouted (I often get double overlord scouted, but they leave none at my third

While it's okay to take that third timing, I much prefer to hit a really strong 3 base timing. Not to mention, it's easier to hold off a roach/ling max with 10 gates of income/production than with only 5 or so!

Fast thirds are so good at my level; it looks like a gateway all in and my opponents overreact 99% of the time. Of course I'm still learning, I'm sure that it's less viable as one climbs up the ladder.

I just think that why go slow third when you could just go fast third?

Also, how many gasses for 9 minute third? 3 or 4? I would assume 3 by 6:30, and add a fourth around 7:15? idk
Getting back into sc2 O_o
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
September 20 2012 22:49 GMT
#6611
Yeah those are the gas timings i use when i immortal expand.

I'm not saying that faster third isn't viable, and it's actually quite strongs on a lot of maps in the ladder pool right now, just that by personal preference i prefer if my builds are harder to read for my opponent.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
ineversmile
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States583 Posts
September 20 2012 23:59 GMT
#6612
I personally think the best way to take a fast third is to pressure your opponent while you put minimal defense at the third. I like putting 1-3 zealots there or a Void Ray (and maybe one zealot) while I go over to his side of the map and attack him where he's weak. If the zerg commits heavily to cancelling your third, you just accept that and trade thirds--which is good positionally for PvZ because you're 2-base vs 2-base. If zerg drones hard, he just loses a base and you are up 3-2 in base count. If he turtles up/builds adequate units, you're 3-base vs 3-base but he's the one who invested into defense, whereas you have only a couple of cannons total and you have a comparable worker count.

The main thing is that a Nexus cancel only puts you 100 minerals in the hole if you trade evenly with whatever you put there to defend it. So long as investing that 300 extra immediate minerals and having a delayed 3rd is acceptable, then it's fine to build a fast third and have it canceled. Putting a Void and/or +1 zealots next to it is going to deal with a small ling force, forcing a lot of non-droning to actually cancel it. And those zealots will basically always trade cost-efficiently if you have them hug the nexus, so it's a good way to go.

Then again, I also use Chargelots as the core of my army in PvZ, so building Zealots is actually something I want to do. A lot of people are still all about the mass blink stalker army core, so they usually think building Zealots is kind of a waste of money--since they're not actually going to get much out of them with a stalker-sentry army base. But, it's different if your plan is to actually just make 20+ chargelots and go double forge like it's PvT.
Nostradamus.146@AM, Nostradamus.398@KR, Nostradamus.922@EU http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/ins
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
September 21 2012 04:07 GMT
#6613
I know that kcdc made a thread about lategame PvT and it has been helping me but today I played a very long 42 minute PvT I should have lost.

I have a very difficult time controlling my high templar against ghosts, and taking my third.

I think the hardest thing for me really is taking that third base PvT, I am not sure what time to do it or how to defend it well especially on daybreak.

I always find that the terran army is huge and I can barely defend it. I take it around 11-12 minutes usually. Is this an example of taking it too late and as a result being unable to hold it? In the game I thought I would lose the terran backed off and made ghosts then came in with EMP to kill my third.

http://drop.sc/256258

here is the replay, I really need help in how to take and defend the third.

My opening isn't super clean because I am still trying to mess around with it. I think more and more that charge first would be a better use of my gas since I didn't make that many stalkers and with earlier storms or more HT I could have held better. As is, I am playing around with more Templar style openings and blink is great on some maps to help harass early if I open DT a la SKT1 Rain I have found. For Daybreak, I am having my doubts.

Into the lategame I felt I started to do a better and better job of zoning out the vikings but I should have had more production earlier. Tips and suggestions welcome, especially with regards to the third timing and perhaps cleanliness of an opening.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
September 21 2012 07:21 GMT
#6614
On September 21 2012 13:07 ZeromuS wrote:
I know that kcdc made a thread about lategame PvT and it has been helping me but today I played a very long 42 minute PvT I should have lost.

I have a very difficult time controlling my high templar against ghosts, and taking my third.

I think the hardest thing for me really is taking that third base PvT, I am not sure what time to do it or how to defend it well especially on daybreak.

I always find that the terran army is huge and I can barely defend it. I take it around 11-12 minutes usually. Is this an example of taking it too late and as a result being unable to hold it? In the game I thought I would lose the terran backed off and made ghosts then came in with EMP to kill my third.

http://drop.sc/256258

here is the replay, I really need help in how to take and defend the third.

My opening isn't super clean because I am still trying to mess around with it. I think more and more that charge first would be a better use of my gas since I didn't make that many stalkers and with earlier storms or more HT I could have held better. As is, I am playing around with more Templar style openings and blink is great on some maps to help harass early if I open DT a la SKT1 Rain I have found. For Daybreak, I am having my doubts.

Into the lategame I felt I started to do a better and better job of zoning out the vikings but I should have had more production earlier. Tips and suggestions welcome, especially with regards to the third timing and perhaps cleanliness of an opening.


There's not much to say. Nothing is inherently wrong with your build, you just need to micro better and/or macro better. It's difficult to explain how to micro better beside the obvious spread out your army, just watch replays and vods and see how others control their army. As for macro, you could play a bit more economically greedy at the beginning, you saved a lot of chronos and could have used more on probes. Also you went 4 gate before robo/tech, not sure what you were planning with that.

As for the timing of your third, I personally felt it was a bit late but it wasn't that late relative to the terran. You don't necessarily have to be economically on par with the terran at all times though, especially when you have the upgrade advantage. Also I guess you could have started getting colossus faster. I felt like for most of the game you only had 1 or 2 colossus in your army and if you had more you would have easily won the battles since he never really had a lot of vikings. You should have 2 robos once you get on 3-4 bases.
Gianttt
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Netherlands194 Posts
September 21 2012 08:25 GMT
#6615
I hope this is not posted yet, since there is so many post already, but I have my own opinion of holding a cannon rush.

For example:
PvP on Daybreak LE were there are two effective cannon rush spots. One in the back of the mineral line and one next to the ramp by the natural.
The rest of the spots of a cheese is mainly a two-gate zealot rush one.

After I builded my gateway on 12 I scout for the different spots to check if he's cheesing or not. I do this in a certain pattern so that I do everything on the right timing, before any cannon is up.
Whenever I scout this most of the time I don't have a CC yet, but have gass.
I remove my probes from the gas (50-70 gas or so, atleast 50 for my warpgate research) and start chronoboosting 1-3 zealots, depending on how much he overcommits.
While getting the zealots I put the amount of probes on the pylons/cannons that can hit them (important is to stay calm and not overreact).
The thing of getting more zealots is that you do more damage against the pylons and cannons, but the most important thing to note is: Get the cannons down before they finish, so that you won't take any damage on either your probe(s) or zealot(s).

Whenever a pylon is down and you can get to the cannon do the same as you did with the pylons, which is: Put the amount of probes/zealots on the cannon that can hit, and use the others to remove the remaining pylons or if possible put them back on mining. (Another tip: Zealots before probes, when hitting buildings).

Since I got cannon rushed a couple times in online or offline tournaments I was thinking of the best way to deal, without too much losses, that key was: Stay Calm, Play effective.
It works everytime I deal with it now, whenever I scout it on time. But as long as you folow the Cheese Way Pattern, there won't be a problem holding.

(I will post a replay of my scout pattern or maybe one when im holding a cannon rush (if I can find one) in this reply).
Winners: It is difficult, but it's possible.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 21 2012 09:14 GMT
#6616
I've been playing with a skytoss build Endless posted on the b.net forums. I'm pretty convinced taht carriers with ht/archon support can destroy just about anything the zerg can throw out. The trick is getting there. 3 base muta or hydralisks tends to be a problem. I think the solution is to get templar tech out faster. My current build is as follows:

FFE
Stargate->continuous voids until 6
Fleet Beacon
3rd/Mothership
2 more stargates
Carriers
gateways, TC, archives

Is there a way to rearrange that a little bit? Here's a replay of me getting very annoyed by mutas. I get out phoenix, but a huge pack of hydras rolls up before I have any carriers. Not sure it's a useful replay.

http://drop.sc/256324
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 18:30:35
September 21 2012 18:04 GMT
#6617
On September 21 2012 16:21 rsvp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 13:07 ZeromuS wrote:
I know that kcdc made a thread about lategame PvT and it has been helping me but today I played a very long 42 minute PvT I should have lost.

I have a very difficult time controlling my high templar against ghosts, and taking my third.

I think the hardest thing for me really is taking that third base PvT, I am not sure what time to do it or how to defend it well especially on daybreak.

I always find that the terran army is huge and I can barely defend it. I take it around 11-12 minutes usually. Is this an example of taking it too late and as a result being unable to hold it? In the game I thought I would lose the terran backed off and made ghosts then came in with EMP to kill my third.

http://drop.sc/256258

here is the replay, I really need help in how to take and defend the third.

My opening isn't super clean because I am still trying to mess around with it. I think more and more that charge first would be a better use of my gas since I didn't make that many stalkers and with earlier storms or more HT I could have held better. As is, I am playing around with more Templar style openings and blink is great on some maps to help harass early if I open DT a la SKT1 Rain I have found. For Daybreak, I am having my doubts.

Into the lategame I felt I started to do a better and better job of zoning out the vikings but I should have had more production earlier. Tips and suggestions welcome, especially with regards to the third timing and perhaps cleanliness of an opening.


There's not much to say. Nothing is inherently wrong with your build, you just need to micro better and/or macro better. It's difficult to explain how to micro better beside the obvious spread out your army, just watch replays and vods and see how others control their army. As for macro, you could play a bit more economically greedy at the beginning, you saved a lot of chronos and could have used more on probes. Also you went 4 gate before robo/tech, not sure what you were planning with that.

As for the timing of your third, I personally felt it was a bit late but it wasn't that late relative to the terran. You don't necessarily have to be economically on par with the terran at all times though, especially when you have the upgrade advantage. Also I guess you could have started getting colossus faster. I felt like for most of the game you only had 1 or 2 colossus in your army and if you had more you would have easily won the battles since he never really had a lot of vikings. You should have 2 robos once you get on 3-4 bases.


Sweet, thanks a lot for the tips ^^ I will work on them. Im getting better at ht control slowly but surely. The four gates was because I saw the naked rax and thought he was going to do a stupid rax based heavy all in so I wanted to get more units.

EDIT: Just played a couple more PvTs, tried out what you said and I have been doing much much better. More collossus has definitely helped and being a little more greedy early on has helped me have more stuff to fight back the terran when he comes knocking.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
tehemperorer
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2183 Posts
September 21 2012 18:21 GMT
#6618
On September 21 2012 18:14 Jerubaal wrote:
I've been playing with a skytoss build Endless posted on the b.net forums. I'm pretty convinced taht carriers with ht/archon support can destroy just about anything the zerg can throw out. The trick is getting there. 3 base muta or hydralisks tends to be a problem. I think the solution is to get templar tech out faster. My current build is as follows:

FFE
Stargate->continuous voids until 6
Fleet Beacon
3rd/Mothership
2 more stargates
Carriers
gateways, TC, archives

Is there a way to rearrange that a little bit? Here's a replay of me getting very annoyed by mutas. I get out phoenix, but a huge pack of hydras rolls up before I have any carriers. Not sure it's a useful replay.

http://drop.sc/256324

Yeah that's roughly how you do it! My thing isn't going so hard on Voids, though, since you become weak against muta. You can do two things: Take a zealot and suicide it into Zergs main to see if he has a spire. If he doesn't you can continue on your path of 6 voids. The second thing would be to get a phoenix out first, followed by the voids. It won't ruin any sort of timing you're going for, but it will give you an early heads up regarding his choice of roach or muta and is more safe/solid than just rushing to as many voids as you had.
Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 21 2012 23:20 GMT
#6619
On September 22 2012 03:21 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2012 18:14 Jerubaal wrote:
I've been playing with a skytoss build Endless posted on the b.net forums. I'm pretty convinced taht carriers with ht/archon support can destroy just about anything the zerg can throw out. The trick is getting there. 3 base muta or hydralisks tends to be a problem. I think the solution is to get templar tech out faster. My current build is as follows:

FFE
Stargate->continuous voids until 6
Fleet Beacon
3rd/Mothership
2 more stargates
Carriers
gateways, TC, archives

Is there a way to rearrange that a little bit? Here's a replay of me getting very annoyed by mutas. I get out phoenix, but a huge pack of hydras rolls up before I have any carriers. Not sure it's a useful replay.

http://drop.sc/256324

Yeah that's roughly how you do it! My thing isn't going so hard on Voids, though, since you become weak against muta. You can do two things: Take a zealot and suicide it into Zergs main to see if he has a spire. If he doesn't you can continue on your path of 6 voids. The second thing would be to get a phoenix out first, followed by the voids. It won't ruin any sort of timing you're going for, but it will give you an early heads up regarding his choice of roach or muta and is more safe/solid than just rushing to as many voids as you had.


I think I'm going to make a phoenix first so I can scout out his bases. If he goes infestor or mutas I might accelerate HT tech. The last thing I died to was mass lings, but I think if I expand faster I can have my cannons up.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
maLaK1
Profile Joined May 2012
Germany124 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 23:53:43
September 21 2012 23:51 GMT
#6620
hi,

I'm a diamond zerg offracing protoss atm for fun/practice,

can you guys give me 3 solid build orders for each matchup, that use blink stalkers?
but no allin builds please, for PVZ and PVT I need on where I can quickly take a 3rd base,
for PvP I need a blink stalker one base build where I can expand after it,

since I play a lot of 2v2 can you also give me a solid 2on2 build that is cheese proof
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