EPTIn this PvZ I take a reasonably timed third while getting up colossus tech. My opponent attacks my third with a decently sizable roach/ling force, which I fend off okay, but then immediately afterwards drops my main with a big glob of roaches. I blink up my stalkers to clean them up, which I eventually do, but I take a lot of damage in the process while he continues to attack my third, forcing me to defend both locations. I eventually win this game, but I feel like I should have lost, as his drop/frontal attack did a lot of damage. I know my macro wasn't terribly good, and I neglected to take note of the fact that he had overlord speed with my second hallucination scout, which would have helped me scout the drop in advance. Either way, what could I have done better to defend this attack?
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
In this PvZ I take a reasonably timed third while getting up colossus tech. My opponent attacks my third with a decently sizable roach/ling force, which I fend off okay, but then immediately afterwards drops my main with a big glob of roaches. I blink up my stalkers to clean them up, which I eventually do, but I take a lot of damage in the process while he continues to attack my third, forcing me to defend both locations. I eventually win this game, but I feel like I should have lost, as his drop/frontal attack did a lot of damage. I know my macro wasn't terribly good, and I neglected to take note of the fact that he had overlord speed with my second hallucination scout, which would have helped me scout the drop in advance. Either way, what could I have done better to defend this attack? | ||
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freeshooter
United States477 Posts
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Yalaka
2 Posts
I didn't play Sc2 for like one and a half year now. When I quit Sc2 I was playing in Diamond League with Protoss and now I wanna get there again, and even higher. The thing is, I know nothing about current builds etc. So can you maybe give me like one build for each matchup? I'd love to have some variation btw. and not 3 Gate + Robo in every matchup (I don't even know if thats still possible). I would really appreciate your help A LOT. Thanks in advance.  User was warned for this post | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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M7Jagger
Sweden237 Posts
http://drop.sc/255940 Thanks in advance. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
http://drop.sc/255946 I scout him last [or rather, not at all, considering the timing], he scouts me first. Does this merit an instant Probe follow EVERY time? Is there no other way to deal with it? Looking at the replay, it seems I lost the game once the wall got off anyway, considering he had a block . The only major issue was that I was supply blocked for about 10 seconds, but that still would not have been enough time to beat down the extra Pylon that he was smartly waiting to make. Is it possible to prevent that second Pylon from going up (as in, the one doing the block?), was I just slow in clicking forward? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
I usually go for a forge ffe followed up by a robo and gates and i aim for a warp prism harass into a third into blink stalker colossi. i really like that build because it feels fun and solid, but i still have some more specific questions about timings: When do i actually get my third and fourth gas up? How many gates do i get after my robo? and how is the best/safest way to deal with an agressive roach ling follow up after my initial harrassment. What i'm doing most of the time is getting 3rd and 4th gas up at about ~7:00, 4 gates after my robo and a colossi bay aswell as a twilight council, and after 2 or 3 immortals i usually take my third,but sometimes i get just overwhelmed by roach maxes. I | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 21 2012 04:16 Nyxisto wrote: Hi, i just recently started trying out protoss , and have a question regarding a PvZ build: I usually go for a forge ffe followed up by a robo and gates and i aim for a warp prism harass into a third into blink stalker colossi. i really like that build because it feels fun and solid, but i still have some more specific questions about timings: When do i actually get my third and fourth gas up? How many gates do i get after my robo? and how is the best/safest way to deal with an agressive roach ling follow up after my initial harrassment. What i'm doing most of the time is getting 3rd and 4th gas up at about ~7:00, 4 gates after my robo and a colossi bay aswell as a twilight council, and after 2 or 3 immortals i usually take my third,but sometimes i get just overwhelmed by roach maxes. I Im a big fan of taking a faster third and later gates. Honestly, your nexus should be down around 7:30, meanwhile you're pressuring with your zealot/stalker/stalker to force lings/spines. You get map control, scouting, and hurt his economy almost for free! I'm thinking taking a third gas at 6:30 or 6:45 would be optimal, with fourth gas after nexus, to afford sentry/observer/immortal. Nexus first -> robo -> add 3 gates then nexus. Add a fast council for +2 and blink, and then it comes down to scouting. Read my pvz blog for more details (I'm on a phone right now; typing is hard), but generally you scout his gas count, lair timing, and tech choice. Basically if hes doing a roach/ling max, add on zealot/sentry/immortal. Add on colossi after you're safe; his hive is a LONG way out. Push at +3 and 3 colossi, win. Force field good unit, that is all. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 21 2012 07:31 Teoita wrote: I am really, really not sold on such a fast third tbh. I dislike the idea of screaming NO TWO BASE ALLIN YO; if you go for a more standard 9 ish minute third like in monk's macro pvz thread, it should be really hard for z to tell the difference between immortal allin and immortal timing. Skipping your extra gasses and getting a faster third to be just leaves zerg too free to do what he wishes. I suppose. I'm sure that at a higher level than mine, this is the case. However, most of the time my third isn't scouted (I often get double overlord scouted, but they leave none at my third While it's okay to take that third timing, I much prefer to hit a really strong 3 base timing. Not to mention, it's easier to hold off a roach/ling max with 10 gates of income/production than with only 5 or so! Fast thirds are so good at my level; it looks like a gateway all in and my opponents overreact 99% of the time. Of course I'm still learning, I'm sure that it's less viable as one climbs up the ladder. I just think that why go slow third when you could just go fast third? Also, how many gasses for 9 minute third? 3 or 4? I would assume 3 by 6:30, and add a fourth around 7:15? idk | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
I'm not saying that faster third isn't viable, and it's actually quite strongs on a lot of maps in the ladder pool right now, just that by personal preference i prefer if my builds are harder to read for my opponent. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
The main thing is that a Nexus cancel only puts you 100 minerals in the hole if you trade evenly with whatever you put there to defend it. So long as investing that 300 extra immediate minerals and having a delayed 3rd is acceptable, then it's fine to build a fast third and have it canceled. Putting a Void and/or +1 zealots next to it is going to deal with a small ling force, forcing a lot of non-droning to actually cancel it. And those zealots will basically always trade cost-efficiently if you have them hug the nexus, so it's a good way to go. Then again, I also use Chargelots as the core of my army in PvZ, so building Zealots is actually something I want to do. A lot of people are still all about the mass blink stalker army core, so they usually think building Zealots is kind of a waste of money--since they're not actually going to get much out of them with a stalker-sentry army base. But, it's different if your plan is to actually just make 20+ chargelots and go double forge like it's PvT. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
I have a very difficult time controlling my high templar against ghosts, and taking my third. I think the hardest thing for me really is taking that third base PvT, I am not sure what time to do it or how to defend it well especially on daybreak. I always find that the terran army is huge and I can barely defend it. I take it around 11-12 minutes usually. Is this an example of taking it too late and as a result being unable to hold it? In the game I thought I would lose the terran backed off and made ghosts then came in with EMP to kill my third. http://drop.sc/256258 here is the replay, I really need help in how to take and defend the third. My opening isn't super clean because I am still trying to mess around with it. I think more and more that charge first would be a better use of my gas since I didn't make that many stalkers and with earlier storms or more HT I could have held better. As is, I am playing around with more Templar style openings and blink is great on some maps to help harass early if I open DT a la SKT1 Rain I have found. For Daybreak, I am having my doubts. Into the lategame I felt I started to do a better and better job of zoning out the vikings but I should have had more production earlier. Tips and suggestions welcome, especially with regards to the third timing and perhaps cleanliness of an opening. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On September 21 2012 13:07 ZeromuS wrote: I know that kcdc made a thread about lategame PvT and it has been helping me but today I played a very long 42 minute PvT I should have lost. I have a very difficult time controlling my high templar against ghosts, and taking my third. I think the hardest thing for me really is taking that third base PvT, I am not sure what time to do it or how to defend it well especially on daybreak. I always find that the terran army is huge and I can barely defend it. I take it around 11-12 minutes usually. Is this an example of taking it too late and as a result being unable to hold it? In the game I thought I would lose the terran backed off and made ghosts then came in with EMP to kill my third. http://drop.sc/256258 here is the replay, I really need help in how to take and defend the third. My opening isn't super clean because I am still trying to mess around with it. I think more and more that charge first would be a better use of my gas since I didn't make that many stalkers and with earlier storms or more HT I could have held better. As is, I am playing around with more Templar style openings and blink is great on some maps to help harass early if I open DT a la SKT1 Rain I have found. For Daybreak, I am having my doubts. Into the lategame I felt I started to do a better and better job of zoning out the vikings but I should have had more production earlier. Tips and suggestions welcome, especially with regards to the third timing and perhaps cleanliness of an opening. There's not much to say. Nothing is inherently wrong with your build, you just need to micro better and/or macro better. It's difficult to explain how to micro better beside the obvious spread out your army, just watch replays and vods and see how others control their army. As for macro, you could play a bit more economically greedy at the beginning, you saved a lot of chronos and could have used more on probes. Also you went 4 gate before robo/tech, not sure what you were planning with that. As for the timing of your third, I personally felt it was a bit late but it wasn't that late relative to the terran. You don't necessarily have to be economically on par with the terran at all times though, especially when you have the upgrade advantage. Also I guess you could have started getting colossus faster. I felt like for most of the game you only had 1 or 2 colossus in your army and if you had more you would have easily won the battles since he never really had a lot of vikings. You should have 2 robos once you get on 3-4 bases. | ||
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Gianttt
Netherlands194 Posts
For example: PvP on Daybreak LE were there are two effective cannon rush spots. One in the back of the mineral line and one next to the ramp by the natural. The rest of the spots of a cheese is mainly a two-gate zealot rush one. After I builded my gateway on 12 I scout for the different spots to check if he's cheesing or not. I do this in a certain pattern so that I do everything on the right timing, before any cannon is up. Whenever I scout this most of the time I don't have a CC yet, but have gass. I remove my probes from the gas (50-70 gas or so, atleast 50 for my warpgate research) and start chronoboosting 1-3 zealots, depending on how much he overcommits. While getting the zealots I put the amount of probes on the pylons/cannons that can hit them (important is to stay calm and not overreact). The thing of getting more zealots is that you do more damage against the pylons and cannons, but the most important thing to note is: Get the cannons down before they finish, so that you won't take any damage on either your probe(s) or zealot(s). Whenever a pylon is down and you can get to the cannon do the same as you did with the pylons, which is: Put the amount of probes/zealots on the cannon that can hit, and use the others to remove the remaining pylons or if possible put them back on mining. (Another tip: Zealots before probes, when hitting buildings). Since I got cannon rushed a couple times in online or offline tournaments I was thinking of the best way to deal, without too much losses, that key was: Stay Calm, Play effective. It works everytime I deal with it now, whenever I scout it on time. But as long as you folow the Cheese Way Pattern, there won't be a problem holding. (I will post a replay of my scout pattern or maybe one when im holding a cannon rush (if I can find one) in this reply). | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
FFE Stargate->continuous voids until 6 Fleet Beacon 3rd/Mothership 2 more stargates Carriers gateways, TC, archives Is there a way to rearrange that a little bit? Here's a replay of me getting very annoyed by mutas. I get out phoenix, but a huge pack of hydras rolls up before I have any carriers. Not sure it's a useful replay. http://drop.sc/256324 | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:21 rsvp wrote: There's not much to say. Nothing is inherently wrong with your build, you just need to micro better and/or macro better. It's difficult to explain how to micro better beside the obvious spread out your army, just watch replays and vods and see how others control their army. As for macro, you could play a bit more economically greedy at the beginning, you saved a lot of chronos and could have used more on probes. Also you went 4 gate before robo/tech, not sure what you were planning with that. As for the timing of your third, I personally felt it was a bit late but it wasn't that late relative to the terran. You don't necessarily have to be economically on par with the terran at all times though, especially when you have the upgrade advantage. Also I guess you could have started getting colossus faster. I felt like for most of the game you only had 1 or 2 colossus in your army and if you had more you would have easily won the battles since he never really had a lot of vikings. You should have 2 robos once you get on 3-4 bases. Sweet, thanks a lot for the tips ^^ I will work on them. Im getting better at ht control slowly but surely. The four gates was because I saw the naked rax and thought he was going to do a stupid rax based heavy all in so I wanted to get more units. EDIT: Just played a couple more PvTs, tried out what you said and I have been doing much much better. More collossus has definitely helped and being a little more greedy early on has helped me have more stuff to fight back the terran when he comes knocking. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On September 21 2012 18:14 Jerubaal wrote: I've been playing with a skytoss build Endless posted on the b.net forums. I'm pretty convinced taht carriers with ht/archon support can destroy just about anything the zerg can throw out. The trick is getting there. 3 base muta or hydralisks tends to be a problem. I think the solution is to get templar tech out faster. My current build is as follows: FFE Stargate->continuous voids until 6 Fleet Beacon 3rd/Mothership 2 more stargates Carriers gateways, TC, archives Is there a way to rearrange that a little bit? Here's a replay of me getting very annoyed by mutas. I get out phoenix, but a huge pack of hydras rolls up before I have any carriers. Not sure it's a useful replay. http://drop.sc/256324 Yeah that's roughly how you do it! My thing isn't going so hard on Voids, though, since you become weak against muta. You can do two things: Take a zealot and suicide it into Zergs main to see if he has a spire. If he doesn't you can continue on your path of 6 voids. The second thing would be to get a phoenix out first, followed by the voids. It won't ruin any sort of timing you're going for, but it will give you an early heads up regarding his choice of roach or muta and is more safe/solid than just rushing to as many voids as you had. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On September 22 2012 03:21 tehemperorer wrote: Yeah that's roughly how you do it! My thing isn't going so hard on Voids, though, since you become weak against muta. You can do two things: Take a zealot and suicide it into Zergs main to see if he has a spire. If he doesn't you can continue on your path of 6 voids. The second thing would be to get a phoenix out first, followed by the voids. It won't ruin any sort of timing you're going for, but it will give you an early heads up regarding his choice of roach or muta and is more safe/solid than just rushing to as many voids as you had. I think I'm going to make a phoenix first so I can scout out his bases. If he goes infestor or mutas I might accelerate HT tech. The last thing I died to was mass lings, but I think if I expand faster I can have my cannons up. | ||
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maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
I'm a diamond zerg offracing protoss atm for fun/practice, can you guys give me 3 solid build orders for each matchup, that use blink stalkers? but no allin builds please, for PVZ and PVT I need on where I can quickly take a 3rd base, for PvP I need a blink stalker one base build where I can expand after it, since I play a lot of 2v2 can you also give me a solid 2on2 build that is cheese proof | ||
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