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Hey, not to be obnoxious but I'd really appreciate it if somebody analysed this replay and could point out why I lost! I wonder if I'm correct in my assumptions as to what cost me the game, etc.
On September 15 2012 09:14 Mavvie wrote:Thanks monk, it's pretty awesome doing this. To anyone: http://drop.sc/252510I just tried this 2gas 3 nexus style, and did OK. I lost all my immortals and sentries to his roach swell, but his hive was so fast I decided to attack at 2 colossi. I am not sure what I did wrong and what cost me the game. I never secured my fourth, but I didn't feel it was necessary if I could kill him. Did I just lose to the powerful Zerg lategame? I don't think so; I think that I lost because I lost my sentries and got colossus too late (I thought he was going to continue the aggression). I didn't move out to my fourth because I was afraid of multipronged aggression. Did I lose to bad micro, macro mistakes, or is there a general flaw in my strategy? I feel like I must have lost because I retained 0 sentries, so in the lategame fight my forcefields were limited. The part near the end where I literally walked through his roach/broodlord was because of some stupid thing I clicked blocking my whole screen lol. I think that he can't have had the resources for very many broodlords; if I had taken a fourth and maintained colossus production, could I have won it? It felt like a really close game, and it was even vs a masters league player! Thanks in advance!
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On September 16 2012 03:48 Mavvie wrote:Hey, not to be obnoxious but I'd really appreciate it if somebody analysed this replay and could point out why I lost! I wonder if I'm correct in my assumptions as to what cost me the game, etc. Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 09:14 Mavvie wrote:Thanks monk, it's pretty awesome doing this. To anyone: http://drop.sc/252510I just tried this 2gas 3 nexus style, and did OK. I lost all my immortals and sentries to his roach swell, but his hive was so fast I decided to attack at 2 colossi. I am not sure what I did wrong and what cost me the game. I never secured my fourth, but I didn't feel it was necessary if I could kill him. Did I just lose to the powerful Zerg lategame? I don't think so; I think that I lost because I lost my sentries and got colossus too late (I thought he was going to continue the aggression). I didn't move out to my fourth because I was afraid of multipronged aggression. Did I lose to bad micro, macro mistakes, or is there a general flaw in my strategy? I feel like I must have lost because I retained 0 sentries, so in the lategame fight my forcefields were limited. The part near the end where I literally walked through his roach/broodlord was because of some stupid thing I clicked blocking my whole screen lol. I think that he can't have had the resources for very many broodlords; if I had taken a fourth and maintained colossus production, could I have won it? It felt like a really close game, and it was even vs a masters league player! Thanks in advance!
im just gonna point out some mistakes / questionable decision i see you make:
* You lose your scout probe
*if your going to take a fast third like that on ohana you should probably make it a priority to kill the rocks asap
* your build isnt very good, you expand on low gas so you never really get a decent sentry count early on to gather energy
*You scout WAYYY too late, you should be using a faster obs or hallucination to check the zergs tech/ gas. Seeing him on 4 gasses instead of 6 is an obvious indication of some form of roach/ling aggression. (which means you should be building defensive stuff like cannons/sentries/immortals
*Im 13:00 into the game and you still havent killed the rocks between your natural and third...
*you push out a decent time but due to supply blocks your army isnt as big as it could be.
*you also push out without placing a proxy pylon making reinforcements take too long to make a difference
*2 colossus kinda just walk into their deaths due to a bad rally
*your +3 and your 4th is very late, plus you dont have a templar archive for archons or a fleet beacon for mothership. This makes your push practically all-in
*you go to snipe a hatchery which isnt even mining, and in the process you lose half your stalkers to roaches
*Its 20 min in and you STILL have not killed the rocks at your natural/3rd
-Overall
your build is poorly suited for that map in terms of defending vs. roach (luckily for you he did not commit as hard as he could have)
(poor army composition) You didnt make enough sentries or tech quickly enough to hit an anti-hive timing. Either more colossus or more immortals + sentries would have helped immensely (poor army composition)
Due to supply blocks your army wasnt as strong as it could have been
your 4th is late and you have no intention of making a motherhsip so once broods are on the field you've practically lost.
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On September 16 2012 03:13 BoZiffer wrote:
I think I know the initial response to what I'm about to ask but not the follow-up... I was playing my first or second game ever as Toss on ladder and I was going to try the MC 6 gate. Scouted no third hatch by 5min and early speed, so I got a second gas and made a couple of sentries and built an extra cannon before the flood of speedlings got to my wall. So I think that was good... now what? The MC build uses only 1 gas up through the first warp-in at 7:30-ish. So I'm well behind in gas on most tech builds at this point... am I done for in this case?
basically what your telling me is that you were going for an all-in but stopped when you noticed that the zerg was going all-in. You then deviated from your all-in to defend the zergs
Yes, once this happen you more than likely cannot go through with your initially planned all-in. However you can counter attack him with what you have OR you can just transition into a macro game. His economy will be just as badly if not even more thrown off than yours so you should be ok with either option
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What is the best follow-up after holding off a 2-rax (marine/ marauder w concussive shell). Assume that I held it off with a 1 gate FE. Is it generally a good idea to go for a fast counter-attack? Or is it better to place down forges, a robo bay, and a third base and macro up instead?
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On September 16 2012 11:04 Salient wrote:
What is the best follow-up after holding off a 2-rax (marine/ marauder w concussive shell). Assume that I held it off with a 1 gate FE. Is it generally a good idea to go for a fast counter-attack? Or is it better to place down forges, a robo bay, and a third base and macro up instead?
thats totally dependant on your playstyle. If you happen to have sentries left over from defending and they have energy, if being aggerssive if your preffered playstyle, then sure you can try to deny your opponents expansion with a counter. However if your more of a defensive macro based player (like me) you would opt to get some upgrades and tech and possibly even a third depending on how comfortable your feeling and what the map is.
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On September 16 2012 10:32 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 03:48 Mavvie wrote:Hey, not to be obnoxious but I'd really appreciate it if somebody analysed this replay and could point out why I lost! I wonder if I'm correct in my assumptions as to what cost me the game, etc. On September 15 2012 09:14 Mavvie wrote:Thanks monk, it's pretty awesome doing this. To anyone: http://drop.sc/252510I just tried this 2gas 3 nexus style, and did OK. I lost all my immortals and sentries to his roach swell, but his hive was so fast I decided to attack at 2 colossi. I am not sure what I did wrong and what cost me the game. I never secured my fourth, but I didn't feel it was necessary if I could kill him. Did I just lose to the powerful Zerg lategame? I don't think so; I think that I lost because I lost my sentries and got colossus too late (I thought he was going to continue the aggression). I didn't move out to my fourth because I was afraid of multipronged aggression. Did I lose to bad micro, macro mistakes, or is there a general flaw in my strategy? I feel like I must have lost because I retained 0 sentries, so in the lategame fight my forcefields were limited. The part near the end where I literally walked through his roach/broodlord was because of some stupid thing I clicked blocking my whole screen lol. I think that he can't have had the resources for very many broodlords; if I had taken a fourth and maintained colossus production, could I have won it? It felt like a really close game, and it was even vs a masters league player! Thanks in advance! im just gonna point out some mistakes / questionable decision i see you make: * You lose your scout probe *if your going to take a fast third like that on ohana you should probably make it a priority to kill the rocks asap * your build isnt very good, you expand on low gas so you never really get a decent sentry count early on to gather energy *You scout WAYYY too late, you should be using a faster obs or hallucination to check the zergs tech/ gas. Seeing him on 4 gasses instead of 6 is an obvious indication of some form of roach/ling aggression. (which means you should be building defensive stuff like cannons/sentries/immortals *Im 13:00 into the game and you still havent killed the rocks between your natural and third... *you push out a decent time but due to supply blocks your army isnt as big as it could be. *you also push out without placing a proxy pylon making reinforcements take too long to make a difference *2 colossus kinda just walk into their deaths due to a bad rally *your +3 and your 4th is very late, plus you dont have a templar archive for archons or a fleet beacon for mothership. This makes your push practically all-in *you go to snipe a hatchery which isnt even mining, and in the process you lose half your stalkers to roaches *Its 20 min in and you STILL have not killed the rocks at your natural/3rd -Overall your build is poorly suited for that map in terms of defending vs. roach (luckily for you he did not commit as hard as he could have) (poor army composition) You didnt make enough sentries or tech quickly enough to hit an anti-hive timing. Either more colossus or more immortals + sentries would have helped immensely (poor army composition) Due to supply blocks your army wasnt as strong as it could have been your 4th is late and you have no intention of making a motherhsip so once broods are on the field you've practically lost.
Thanks.
Ahahaha the rocks, the rocks...I probably should've even built a cannon there to kill them faster as I have no units at home for a long time. My build execution was sloppy, but I'm still not quite sure what to follow up the fast third with. Oz goes for stargate->double gas->zealot/stalker/sentry, adding a robo after 2 void rays, but that seems like a terribly late robo and would die to 3base mass roach.
Ok, I'll be sure to get a higher number of robo units + sentries in the future. I suppose I need a fourth and mothership to play macro PvZ, I guess that's another reason to go fast third -> stargate -> robo.
If I scout 4 gas I should make immortal/sentry, if I scout 6 then I should make colossus/sentry? Seems simple enough, even a probe scout might be able to spot that.
I've gotten better at proxy pylons, they're awesome lol. I'll make sure to either kill the rocks or email dustin browder, and I'll try to avoid supply blocks more. Thanks for the help! I honestly didn't notice these problems watching the replay myself.
Edit: That part where I lost half my stalkers to roaches....my game minimized RIGHT as I was going to move command -> blink through the roaches. So I believe they were on move command and most of them died :C
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How do I open/play vs 1 rax FE into Reactor hellion into Mech on daybreak?
In general whats the best way to play vs mech and whats the ideal composition? I never seem to win vs Mech
Also what is a good build(after FFE) Close position Entombed Valley vs z?
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Hi, I just switched from Terran to Protoss and I have a few questions regarding Protoss. What whould be my goal vs the other races, like, as Protoss, do I want to just sit on my ass max vs, lets say Terran, or do I need to put pressure on him like you do when you play Terran. Same for Zerg do I need to some damage in mid game or will I be fine i just sin in my base?
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On September 16 2012 16:48 M7Jagger wrote:
Hi, I just switched from Terran to Protoss and I have a few questions regarding Protoss. What whould be my goal vs the other races, like, as Protoss, do I want to just sit on my ass max vs, lets say Terran, or do I need to put pressure on him like you do when you play Terran. Same for Zerg do I need to some damage in mid game or will I be fine i just sin in my base?
goal vs terran, imo there are two decent ways to go. first of all go for a macro sit on your ass 3 base+ game. Which means tech up to collosus with 2 forge or templar on 2 base which focusses on having just enough to fend off the 10:30 medivac pushes and herras. and gets a 3th base on +- 11 mins. This is just a strat that really invests into the lategame. obv you can always go kill him on 2 base if you crush his push while for example he goes for triple command inbase.
In this case make sure you have like 6 stalkers in yourr main while macroing up on 2-3 bases cuz of the drops.
2 base all in > after Nexus first or 1gate nexus 6-7 gate all in on maps like cloud kingdom and daybreak this is pretty good, make sure to keep scouting with your stalker on howmany bunkers he gets.
Zerg basicly the same. There are a ton of 2 base all ins that work well vs zergs that aint on top of their scouting. or you can go for fast 3rd which now adays mainly involve 4 gate robo with immortals and sentrys to hold. then you aim for a timing push around 14-15 minutes and scout his hive timing to strike before he has broodlords. after that the game ends or envolves into endgame.
Protoss you either go for 1 base allin (blink stalker, 1-2 collosus push to punish expand builds) or just regular 4gate cheeses
Incase it goes into a macro game i'd say just sit on your ass and be greedy as fuck while going for collosus. This means get 2 forges around 7 mins and a 2nd robo at 11 mins and make sure to scout he doenst get a greedy 3rd. In pvp you shouldnt really getting a 3rd before 18-20 minutes if your oppoonent doesnt get an expand and you are fine with it, take one yourself. Around 180 supply fill the rest with arcons. you should have around 8 collosus 2 immortals and zealot archon and maybe some stlakers from early game.
I'd say never attack into a protoss macro game except when he goes for a 3rd and/or you have such a lead from early game and/or when you are ahead in upgrades and/or collosus.
But i gues there are more ways to go, this is my playstyle (Mid master)
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On September 16 2012 18:16 Regina wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:48 M7Jagger wrote:
Hi, I just switched from Terran to Protoss and I have a few questions regarding Protoss. What whould be my goal vs the other races, like, as Protoss, do I want to just sit on my ass max vs, lets say Terran, or do I need to put pressure on him like you do when you play Terran. Same for Zerg do I need to some damage in mid game or will I be fine i just sin in my base? goal vs terran, imo there are two decent ways to go. first of all go for a macro sit on your ass 3 base+ game. Which means tech up to collosus with 2 forge or templar on 2 base which focusses on having just enough to fend off the 10:30 medivac pushes and herras. and gets a 3th base on +- 11 mins. This is just a strat that really invests into the lategame. obv you can always go kill him on 2 base if you crush his push while for example he goes for triple command inbase. In this case make sure you have like 6 stalkers in yourr main while macroing up on 2-3 bases cuz of the drops. 2 base all in > after Nexus first or 1gate nexus 6-7 gate all in on maps like cloud kingdom and daybreak this is pretty good, make sure to keep scouting with your stalker on howmany bunkers he gets. Zerg basicly the same. There are a ton of 2 base all ins that work well vs zergs that aint on top of their scouting. or you can go for fast 3rd which now adays mainly involve 4 gate robo with immortals and sentrys to hold. then you aim for a timing push around 14-15 minutes and scout his hive timing to strike before he has broodlords. after that the game ends or envolves into endgame. Protoss you either go for 1 base allin (blink stalker, 1-2 collosus push to punish expand builds) or just regular 4gate cheeses Incase it goes into a macro game i'd say just sit on your ass and be greedy as fuck while going for collosus. This means get 2 forges around 7 mins and a 2nd robo at 11 mins and make sure to scout he doenst get a greedy 3rd. In pvp you shouldnt really getting a 3rd before 18-20 minutes if your oppoonent doesnt get an expand and you are fine with it, take one yourself. Around 180 supply fill the rest with arcons. you should have around 8 collosus 2 immortals and zealot archon and maybe some stlakers from early game. I'd say never attack into a protoss macro game except when he goes for a 3rd and/or you have such a lead from early game and/or when you are ahead in upgrades and/or collosus. But i gues there are more ways to go, this is my playstyle (Mid master)
Thanks alot man^^
I have another question, what opening do I make vs random? So hard because the opening is so different depending on what race you're playing against. With Terran you can just 1rax FE in all MU's.
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On September 16 2012 18:42 M7Jagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 18:16 Regina wrote:On September 16 2012 16:48 M7Jagger wrote:
Hi, I just switched from Terran to Protoss and I have a few questions regarding Protoss. What whould be my goal vs the other races, like, as Protoss, do I want to just sit on my ass max vs, lets say Terran, or do I need to put pressure on him like you do when you play Terran. Same for Zerg do I need to some damage in mid game or will I be fine i just sin in my base? goal vs terran, imo there are two decent ways to go. first of all go for a macro sit on your ass 3 base+ game. Which means tech up to collosus with 2 forge or templar on 2 base which focusses on having just enough to fend off the 10:30 medivac pushes and herras. and gets a 3th base on +- 11 mins. This is just a strat that really invests into the lategame. obv you can always go kill him on 2 base if you crush his push while for example he goes for triple command inbase. In this case make sure you have like 6 stalkers in yourr main while macroing up on 2-3 bases cuz of the drops. 2 base all in > after Nexus first or 1gate nexus 6-7 gate all in on maps like cloud kingdom and daybreak this is pretty good, make sure to keep scouting with your stalker on howmany bunkers he gets. Zerg basicly the same. There are a ton of 2 base all ins that work well vs zergs that aint on top of their scouting. or you can go for fast 3rd which now adays mainly involve 4 gate robo with immortals and sentrys to hold. then you aim for a timing push around 14-15 minutes and scout his hive timing to strike before he has broodlords. after that the game ends or envolves into endgame. Protoss you either go for 1 base allin (blink stalker, 1-2 collosus push to punish expand builds) or just regular 4gate cheeses Incase it goes into a macro game i'd say just sit on your ass and be greedy as fuck while going for collosus. This means get 2 forges around 7 mins and a 2nd robo at 11 mins and make sure to scout he doenst get a greedy 3rd. In pvp you shouldnt really getting a 3rd before 18-20 minutes if your oppoonent doesnt get an expand and you are fine with it, take one yourself. Around 180 supply fill the rest with arcons. you should have around 8 collosus 2 immortals and zealot archon and maybe some stlakers from early game. I'd say never attack into a protoss macro game except when he goes for a 3rd and/or you have such a lead from early game and/or when you are ahead in upgrades and/or collosus. But i gues there are more ways to go, this is my playstyle (Mid master) Thanks alot man^^ I have another question, what opening do I make vs random? So hard because the opening is so different depending on what race you're playing against. With Terran you can just 1rax FE in all MU's.
9 pylon scout, 12 gate starting a sim city in your nexus or a wall-in at the ramp, then pray it isn't a gigantic four player map.
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Hey again!
I'm a little confused with PvP. I do 2g FE's usually, following up with 5G robo and going into colossi once I'm safe to do so. I have no trouble with the early game, in fact I can lose my expo to a 4gate and still win at my level 
I'm just confused about what to do in the midgame. Colossus turtle seems really shitty and boring, so I want to incorporate harass techniques.
Which maps are good for blink, immortal drops, warp prism DT(viable?)
I once went 5 gate blink/obs on ohana.....fuck don't do that lol, can't even blink into the main well. I seem to either turtle and risk losing to harass play, or I pick the wrong type of harass for the map and lose because I'm investing a lot and dealing no damage.
Edit: Bolded my main question because it didn't seem clear.
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On September 16 2012 16:48 M7Jagger wrote:
Hi, I just switched from Terran to Protoss and I have a few questions regarding Protoss. What whould be my goal vs the other races, like, as Protoss, do I want to just sit on my ass max vs, lets say Terran, or do I need to put pressure on him like you do when you play Terran. Same for Zerg do I need to some damage in mid game or will I be fine i just sin in my base?
In PvT It's always great to have a 3/3/3 Chargelot/Archon/HT/Collossus army. The T can really not do anything unless you mess up, so just try and turtle to 3 bases and get this army.
In PvZ you can generally do the same thing, except you pretty much HAVE to push before that Greater Spire finishes, as before BL tech you're in a great position to kill him, but with BLs your army is so less effective. So, you turtle to 3 bases and 200/200, but make sure to push out in time.
Of course, it's not insta-loss if you don't push out in time, but you have to rely on an archon toilet most of the time, so it's just easier to push out and kill before BLs.
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On September 16 2012 23:20 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 23:11 Mavvie wrote:Hey again! I'm a little confused with PvP. I do 2g FE's usually, following up with 5G robo and going into colossi once I'm safe to do so. I have no trouble with the early game, in fact I can lose my expo to a 4gate and still win at my level I'm just confused about what to do in the midgame. Colossus turtle seems really shitty and boring, so I want to incorporate harass techniques. Which maps are good for blink, immortal drops, warp prism DT(viable?)I once went 5 gate blink/obs on ohana.....fuck don't do that lol, can't even blink into the main well. I seem to either turtle and risk losing to harass play, or I pick the wrong type of harass for the map and lose because I'm investing a lot and dealing no damage. Edit: Bolded my main question because it didn't seem clear. From the current ladder map-pool, Cloud Kingdom, Antiga Shipyard and Shakuras Plateau all have large cliffs entering into the main. They should all be good for Blink Obs. Maybe Condemned Ridge as well. EDIT: As a bonus, 1 Base 4 Gate Blink Obs All-Ins are really strong on Antiga Shipyard in PvT. I really recommend it!
Ok cool, so I should just turtle up to colo/zealot/archon deathball on the other maps? I guess drop play's good on daybreak, ohana, condemned...
Aha smart! I imagine that's only good vs 1rax FE though...2 rax expand should be really good against a 4gate no? I imagine it would be because of rauders/conc shells/stim etc.
Thanks though. I just played a PvP on entombed and used DT+WP to kill ~ 30 probes, and I then crushed him in lategame army fights. It's funny how good colo/archon/zealot is...
Also, I've abandoned fast triple nexus play in favour of a 4gate robo expand. It's so much safer, I don't feel vulnerable at all to Stephano roaches. I didn't forcefield at all, but it was 200/200 vs 200/200 and I crushed his army. He still got broods before my 3 colossus timing, but I was able to kill 3 hatcheries before having to pull out. I really like protoss haha.
Followed it up with 2x stargate void rays -> mothership/archon and the guy GG'd because of all the eco damage I had done.
PvZ is totally my matchup haha.
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Hey guys.
I'm plat toss and i start to encounter more and more proxy2gates in PvP. I lose in 90% of those. I scout at 12, i check usual places to put them or i see lack of stuff in his main, but i still can't defend it, i don't know what my response should be.
Is there some tutorial or anything similar to stop proxy gates ?
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Have a short but not so simple question.
1400+ master last season
Assuming late game PvT 4-5 bases I open creator, and hold off his harass and tech into late game. As im sitting on my 4-5bases with 3-3-1 and 4-5 colossus 3 archons and 6-7 ht 3-4 sentry and rest zealot with a little stalker. How do i play against 15+ ghosts on a map like daybreak. He stops harras altogether and takes 4th base and start hiding his ghost count, so obviously I could have scout his main better to find the ghosts.
Regardless of me scouting them how should i play against this late game mass ghost style?
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On September 17 2012 09:11 lInsta wrote:
Hey guys.
I'm plat toss and i start to encounter more and more proxy2gates in PvP. I lose in 90% of those. I scout at 12, i check usual places to put them or i see lack of stuff in his main, but i still can't defend it, i don't know what my response should be.
Is there some tutorial or anything similar to stop proxy gates ?
Forge or second gateway. You can try to out-micro with the advantage of being able to pull probes to brute force a zealot advantage, or you can drop a cannon in your mineral line and freely grab your core. With the forge option you have to be extremely careful about cutting/overmaking zealots. Keeping a probe alive in his main or next to his two proxy gates is very important.
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Anyone played against a gas first into 3rax (all with reactor) marine all-in? It hits right when WG finishes, and fakes an expand. He built a bunker at his front, but I scouted no CC so knew it was a 1base gas all-in. However, it was just pure marine, only mining 150 gas for 3 reactors. He overwhelmed me with superior production, killing me around 9:00.
How do I react to fast gas openers? I also lost to a hellion drop killing 80% of my probes because I was being aggressive with my zealot/2x stalker. Does him taking a fast gas require me to be passive?
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EPT
