EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 326
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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Misuari
Singapore45 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Scout for a third at around 4.30-5.00 if he opened 15p/16h, or for a nat at 4.40 and a third at around 6.30 if he opens speedlings (im stretching these timings a bit, it should be faster but no silver player will have a properly timed opening). If he doesn't take it, get a fast sentry and an extra cannon because he might be allining you. If he doesn't even take his nat, he's probably going for some 1base roach or baneling allin (really really common in low leagues afaik). Also if you see no third, patrol a couple of probes around your base to check for nydus stuff. If it ends up being 3base vs 2base, do whatever your go to build is, wether you take a 3rd or just kill him on 2 bases. The big sign to look for is wether zerg is taking 4 or 6 gasses, if he only has 4 he's probably going for a roach max while if he goes for 6 he is more likely to tech. If it's 2base vs 2base and his build makes sense, he's going either 2base muta, 2 base infestor, roach/ling bust, or (very very rarely) some super wierd allin drop with a combination of lings and banelings, or even a wierd hydra/nydus allin. In this spot i like to go robo for just an obs and eventually fast immortal in case of a roach bust. If he goes 2base muta just do the standard blink defense thing, if it's infestor or some bad roach or roach/hydra build go colossus and turtle up a bit while taking a delayed third. Normally this would be pretty bad but if he's going to be 2basing for longer than usual his econ is going to be really delayed so it makes perfect sense to just get extra units. If you go gateway expand, in lower leagues i'd say just get 2 blind cannons at your nat when you expand and hallucination to scout what he's doing, and react accordingly: muta->>blink into templar, infestor->>take a third, watch out for 2base infested terran timings, get your third, aoe and upgrades going etc. As usual, watch out for 1base roach silliness; if they try to allin your gateway opening just defend your ramp, get one void ray out, expand and laugh at how hilariously far behind he is (while not cutting probes). | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On September 14 2012 02:58 Salient wrote: Should you let the nexus finish when doing an MC 1 gate FE if you scout a definite 2 rax? Or would it better to transition into a 3 gate before expand? Yes, MC's 1gate FE is designed to hold off 2rax easily. You would know it if you had read monk's guide. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Gomox
32 Posts
 Do you have any suggestions? | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
On September 14 2012 02:58 Salient wrote: Should you let the nexus finish when doing an MC 1 gate FE if you scout a definite 2 rax? Or would it better to transition into a 3 gate before expand? Gasless or MM 2 rax? @Gomox Axslav is good | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On September 14 2012 03:38 Supah wrote: So, how do I FF against Speedlings? I throw a lot of games by botching my FFs. Do I put it right in front of my units? Try to sequester them off? Do both? And should I move or just stay put? If you're ever out in the open with no AoE vs lings and have to FF a circle around your units, you've already failed positionally. It's not really a matter of how you forcefield, rather, how you plan ahead by positioning yourself in areas where forcefields are increasingly effective. Lings will drain your sentry energy if you stick to the open -- even with perfect forcefields. As sated said, hug walls/mineral lines/buildings/cliffs/ramps/anything obstructive that can reduce the zergling's surface area to attack. Attack into choke points where the paths zerglings can reach your army are limited, thus allowing you to FF the choke and keep them out, cut them in half, keep them in, etc. You should have a general idea on each map of how and where you want to move from a to b, and where your ideal engagement spots are. Other then that, there is no real trick to forcefielding. It's just landing them very quickly, and very accurately without wasting/overlapping. It takes a long time of practice to get it perfect. Feel free to take screenshots and I'll draw the FF's for you if theres any more confusion. | ||
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seupac
Canada148 Posts
Things I have done: Bases 1-4 are now on f1f2f3f4, my proxy/warpin pylon is bound to Q, and my forges and gates are bound to tab for fast easy chronos Biggest hiccough in my play right now: Building things in mid/lategame. For example, when you are going stargate off FFE vs zerg you have to do a transition with robo tech, a 3rd, and blink, while harassing and scouting with pheonix. I am VERY SLOW at building these structures compared to san or other korean protoss streams i watch. Right now im pressing F1 for my main base, clicking a probe, pressing TAB to warp to my part of the base with structures, warping them in, then pressing F1 and shift rallying my probe back to the minerals. This doesn't feel as efficient as it could be, so I was wondering if anyone has streamlined this at all - I was thinking about having a probe bound to 8 or something in my main to make the process quicker, does anyone do this? EDIT: accidentally a 4th | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Other than that, it sounds like you are pretty much doing it right. The only thing is, you don't need to switch camera to a part of your base where you put down structures; rather, you should bind your main camera hotkey to a location where you have easy access to both your important structures and mineral line. For example, look at this thread, specifically at the first pic: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=332888 With one click (f1 for you), you can immediately put down buildings or chronoboost as needed. | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
On September 14 2012 04:06 Gomox wrote: I'm searching for a high level protoss stream, preferable with commentary! Do you have any suggestions?Well Sase doesn't commentate but his stream is great to watch, For commentary White-Ra does well, Axslav probably the best stream to watch if you are having problems as toss. Wonkman is a non featured high masters toss that does quite a bit of commentary and has a really high quality stream. To be honest though right now to find a decent Pro stream that isn't HOTS is pretty tough, Sage is pretty constant but no commentary. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
I want to try taking a third off 2 gas, but can't nail the timings. With a 6:30 nexus I'm not sure of standard follow-up timings (extra gates, gas, twilight/robo (both?), colo tech, sentry count?). I can't find a guide on the topic :C Instead of asking a bunch of annoying questions, I'll just ask if anyone can point me to some replays of the style being used in high level games The best case scenario is he scouts no gas and assumes gateway all-in, then you auto-win because he's really far behind in macro and he can't deny the third, then I win with the 3+ colossus 3 base push. I can't think of any games off the top of my head, also I don't have a GSL pass. Thanks! | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On September 14 2012 12:44 Mavvie wrote: PvZ Macro build: I want to try taking a third off 2 gas, but can't nail the timings. With a 6:30 nexus I'm not sure of standard follow-up timings (extra gates, gas, twilight/robo (both?), colo tech, sentry count?). I can't find a guide on the topic :C Instead of asking a bunch of annoying questions, I'll just ask if anyone can point me to some replays of the style being used in high level games The best case scenario is he scouts no gas and assumes gateway all-in, then you auto-win because he's really far behind in macro and he can't deny the third, then I win with the 3+ colossus 3 base push. I can't think of any games off the top of my head, also I don't have a GSL pass. Thanks! JYP vs Miya on Atlantis Spaceship from GSL http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67578/?set=1&lang= Sase vs Dimaga on Entombed Valley from HSC V http://www.twitch.tv/taketvbstream/b/323758622?t=9h28m30s Oz vs Violet on Daybreak from MLG Summer Arena-into fast stargate vs roach/ling/infestor http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/18-summer-scii-arena#1751/1756/1;91885 Oz vs Stephano on Daybreak from MLG Summer Arena-into fast stargate, shows excellent defense versus fast speedlings http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/91883-summer-arena-wbr3-stephano-vs-oz-game-3 I have to warn you that the last two are highly non-standard. Also, there have been some fast third into gateway all-in builds lately. Hero used one against a Zerg in the GSL and I believe Seed used one against a TL Zerg in the IPL TAC finals on entombed. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
What's the best way to defend a fast roach or roach/ling all-in on Ohana? (assuming FFE). It seems that with the back rocks the zerg can just bypass my cannons at the front, and get down the rocks before I have time to finish enough additional cannons and/or make a proper wall-off. It also feels excessive having to build 5+ cannons in order to be safe from both attack angles. If you see him going roach allin by the time he takes out your rocks you should already have a good sentry count, and if you add 2- cannons when you see him hitting the rocks you can definitely hold it. Both ramps are 2 ff's wide, so it doesn't make that big of a difference. Also, it takes a while to take out the rocks, so you should have time to get some tech in time, like an immortal/void ray or a round of gateway units when your wg tech is done. What do you think is the best way to deal with phoenix into robo expand in PvP? They usually stop around 3-5 phoenixes. And from here I'm not sure what to do. I don't know if I should get a faster third than usual just b/c of the sharp transition into robo units and the fact he is expanding. I don't know if I should just add up to 8 gateways and push with blink stalkers/zealot/archon, etc. I usually do a 2gate expo and pressure the front to scout his army comp. I usually get a robotics behind the 2g expo just to be completely safe against DTs. Once I see phoenixes, I immediately throw down a twilight council and from there I'm confused. I'm hesitant on pushing because if he sticks to immortals and gateway units instead of teching straight to colossus, I generally lose with my 8g push. It depends on how much scouting info you get and how much damage you take from the phoenixes. If you can keep him from killing too many probes (5 or so), which is really hard with the build you are using, and you see him teching greedily to colossus, you can definitely try to bust him with chargelot/archon on some maps (hint hint: don't bother on Ohana or Shakuras for example). In most situations, i feel like just playing passive and going for the macro game is a decent idea. He commits resources to harassment in phoenixes and you commit resources to defense in a 8 or so blink stalkers, but other than that you can just play a standard midgame pvp going into colossus and be in decent shape. An alternative i have seen HerO do is, if you are ballsy as hell, once your blink is done and you can deny scouting efficiently, throw down 2 stargates (or hide the 2 stargates in a random corner of the map) and pump out phoenixes of your own to surprise him. When you have 10 or so kill off his air force and then finish him with gateway units and phoenixes. Because he has gone phoenix into robo into expand, he won't have the stalker count to keep your phoenixes from killing or disabling all of his expensive units, nor the phoenix count to gain air dominance back. It's really really risky as hell though. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On September 14 2012 17:11 Teoita wrote: It depends on how much scouting info you get and how much damage you take from the phoenixes. If you can keep him from killing too many probes (5 or so), which is really hard with the build you are using, and you see him teching greedily to colossus, you can definitely try to bust him with chargelot/archon on some maps (hint hint: don't bother on Ohana or Shakuras for example). In most situations, i feel like just playing passive and going for the macro game is a decent idea. He commits resources to harassment in phoenixes and you commit resources to defense in a 8 or so blink stalkers, but other than that you can just play a standard midgame pvp going into colossus and be in decent shape. An alternative i have seen HerO do is, if you are ballsy as hell, once your blink is done and you can deny scouting efficiently, throw down 2 stargates (or hide the 2 stargates in a random corner of the map) and pump out phoenixes of your own to surprise him. When you have 10 or so kill off his air force and then finish him with gateway units and phoenixes. Because he has gone phoenix into robo into expand, he won't have the stalker count to keep your phoenixes from killing or disabling all of his expensive units, nor the phoenix count to gain air dominance back. It's really really risky as hell though. Playing passive standard macro against phoenix macro openers is really difficult. I have ended up on both sides of this battle, and it almost always strongly favors the phoenix player. It basically just gives him complete map control for the entire game, which means he always gets complete scouting and thus can play greedier than you (earlier 3rd, chrono on probes while threatening 2 base all-in, etc.). Also, 8 blink stalkers is not really enough to defend against the harass, you'll have to commit more stalkers - which is a problem since stalkers are weaker in the standard composition of colossus/zealot/archon vs colossus/zealot/archon. So then you end up with both a weaker and smaller army and just get rolled over. I would recommend some sort of 2 base all-in, or if you're going to go for a macro game at least make a LOT of blink stalker at first to completely shut down the phoenix harass and take some map control back for yourself, and then use your own blink stalker to harass and allow yourself to get your 3rd faster. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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