EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 327
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
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Switch24
United States20 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On September 14 2012 23:34 Switch24 wrote: Just a curious question, does anyone use a void ray/stalker opening? I used it on a terran the other day and it seemed very effective at containing and forcing terran to focus on turtling instead of dropping. Used a 2 gate expand into stargate to nonstop void ray production. Then flew around, sniped his OC and made a mass stalker/zealot army ran up ramp on antiqua and a move win. Any idea if this is viable higher up on the ladder and can be effective? I am silver though -__- Void ray/stalker is an effective all-in against terran, especially on maps with a lot of ledge space up to the main such as Antiga. The void ray provides vision of the high ground as well as some additional DPS. However voids are too costly, fragile, and slow to be used for anything against terran in standard macro games. As far as stargate goes, phoenix macro openers have been seen on occasion, but aren't very popular. | ||
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Switch24
United States20 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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hooahah
3752 Posts
As far as Voidray, strictly all-in. Proxy Voidray+3gate Stalker, aka the Genius build. best example I could find And, this wouldn't be complete without WHITERA SPECIAL TACTICS - aka Mothership 4gate rush. This is a super all in where you recall your 4gate army into the terran's main. It hits really hard at around 10:00 and absolutely crushes the Terran. oh, and there's the Carrier all-in which is basically crossing your fingers and praying that your two base Carrier play won't be scouted - after the initial battle you reinforce quickly with a 6gate and go for the kill I've seen MC crush a 1-1-1 with a Phoenix opening once, and now that Terrans are focusing on Mech in HotS we will see more Phoenix openings - but in WoL, you're better off staying clear of Stargate tech in PvT | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 14 2012 13:57 monk. wrote: JYP vs Miya on Atlantis Spaceship from GSL http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67578/?set=1&lang= Sase vs Dimaga on Entombed Valley from HSC V http://www.twitch.tv/taketvbstream/b/323758622?t=9h28m30s Oz vs Violet on Daybreak from MLG Summer Arena-into fast stargate vs roach/ling/infestor http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/18-summer-scii-arena#1751/1756/1;91885 Oz vs Stephano on Daybreak from MLG Summer Arena-into fast stargate, shows excellent defense versus fast speedlings http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/91883-summer-arena-wbr3-stephano-vs-oz-game-3 I have to warn you that the last two are highly non-standard. Also, there have been some fast third into gateway all-in builds lately. Hero used one against a Zerg in the GSL and I believe Seed used one against a TL Zerg in the IPL TAC finals on entombed. Woah, thanks those were awesome to watch! The twitch.tv link Sase vs Dimaga is broken for me though. I do have trouble vs banerain, probably an advantage of opening stargate. A few questions: Why do they get 2 gas, but go zealot stalker stalker out of the gateway? I feel like the later you get sentries, the more you die to mass roach which is probably common at my level. Is it worth skipping +1? Honestly, they take 2 gas but don't spend any of it lol. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On September 15 2012 06:22 rsvp wrote: The fast 2 gas is for faster tech/upgrades (such as stargate or robo). You go zealot stalker stalker to poke the zerg to force him to make some lings instead of drones, and also to scout. 3 base zerg is not always macro, there's that 3 base speed ling/bling bust that hits at around 8:00 and there's no way to see it coming if you don't do any sort of early gateway unit poke. Meanwhile you don't actually need sentries that early. Thanks! Literally just lost to a 3 hatch roach/ling all-in :C I will now make zealot/stalker so I can actually defend haha. There's only so much you can learn from VODs. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On September 15 2012 05:02 Mavvie wrote: Woah, thanks those were awesome to watch! The twitch.tv link Sase vs Dimaga is broken for me though. I do have trouble vs banerain, probably an advantage of opening stargate. A few questions: Why do they get 2 gas, but go zealot stalker stalker out of the gateway? I feel like the later you get sentries, the more you die to mass roach which is probably common at my level. Is it worth skipping +1? Honestly, they take 2 gas but don't spend any of it lol. I'll add to rsvp's response. Your question is actually 2 questions, why do they get 2 gas when they take a fast third, and why they do the poke when they take a fast third. Fast 2 gas is partly because you'll eventually need fast sentries eventually plus a tech building, which you won't get with just 1 gas. The poke is because on most maps, Zerg can see your natural gas. If he sees you didn't take your natural gas and you're not pressuring, then something fishy is up. The only options off of 2 gas from toss are gateway pressure, gateway all-in, and fast third. On some maps, if you're not pressuring and has good pylon scouting, he can deduce fast third. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
To anyone: http://drop.sc/252510 I just tried this 2gas 3 nexus style, and did OK. I lost all my immortals and sentries to his roach swell, but his hive was so fast I decided to attack at 2 colossi. I am not sure what I did wrong and what cost me the game. I never secured my fourth, but I didn't feel it was necessary if I could kill him. Did I just lose to the powerful Zerg lategame? I don't think so; I think that I lost because I lost my sentries and got colossus too late (I thought he was going to continue the aggression). I didn't move out to my fourth because I was afraid of multipronged aggression. Did I lose to bad micro, macro mistakes, or is there a general flaw in my strategy? I feel like I must have lost because I retained 0 sentries, so in the lategame fight my forcefields were limited. The part near the end where I literally walked through his roach/broodlord was because of some stupid thing I clicked blocking my whole screen lol. I think that he can't have had the resources for very many broodlords; if I had taken a fourth and maintained colossus production, could I have won it? It felt like a really close game, and it was even vs a masters league player! Thanks in advance! | ||
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Templar.
Canada133 Posts
PvZ: After doing NoNy's 2gate expand into zeal/sentry pressure to stop/delay the 3rd, it seems as though its very difficult to stop massive roach plays(even if i manage to snipe 5+ drones, kill the expo, or just delay it a decent amount).. i assume after i get 4+ gateways up i should be throwing down a robo for the observer and if i don't see much for tech besides roach i should thrown down another robo and pump out immortals? PvT: Is there a way to punish a 1rax no gas fe with 1-2 bunkers at the front without one base all-ins? I've been able to scout this multiple times on the ladder so far(i see 1 rax, no gas.. and its quite obvious hes going expo) and i feel like i'm still behind even if i don't make a stalker and simply go straight nexus after cy core. Thx for any responses ! | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On September 15 2012 11:10 Templar. wrote: I need some general help after just getting back into starcraft. PvZ: After doing NoNy's 2gate expand into zeal/sentry pressure to stop/delay the 3rd, it seems as though its very difficult to stop massive roach plays(even if i manage to snipe 5+ drones, kill the expo, or just delay it a decent amount).. i assume after i get 4+ gateways up i should be throwing down a robo for the observer and if i don't see much for tech besides roach i should thrown down another robo and pump out immortals? My standard follow-up is void ray so roach counterattack actually gets punished. But even without void ray, you should have 4 sentries at home and robo done pretty quickly so you can hold onto your natural extremely easily. Holding onto an early 3rd base would be a challenge, but even that's not impossible on every map. If you don't want to go void ray and you have a problem with counters, then watch the replay and look carefully at your build order to see how you could have gotten more units out and in position in time to deal with it. I can't say specifically what build you should do because there are too many options so you'd just have to tweak your build yourself based on what you lose to | ||
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UntoTheBreach
25 Posts
I had no idea what to do against such a composition. I went mainly zealots + 4 collossi + immortals, hoping that at 3 armour the zealots would soak up enough damage for my collossi and immortals to own everything. But they just died instantly and then my collossi were faced with a choice between shooting siege tanks or hellions, and then they died too. What should I do? You can't go zealots. Stalkers don't have a high enough rate of fire, I would think. I was hesitant to use high templars because they die so easily against blue flame. Maybe archons? Maybe nothing but immortals from 3, 4 robos to force him into abandoning mass hellions in favour of marines? Any ideas? | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
I absolutely hate pheonix mirrors. This being said, if i open robo and then see a stargate or some pheonix fly over head, how should I play it out? Often I do a 2 gate robo expand. With Gate - Robo - Gate, 1 zealot 2 stalkers 2 sentries expand then an immortal after an observer. Sometimes i try to got twilight right away but it doesnt work that great. Though this could be my doing it wrong. I have the hardest time vs macro phoenix in these situations not the all in phoenixes as a wall in helps a LOT vs phoenix all ins if I open robo expo. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
Playing passive standard macro against phoenix macro openers is really difficult. I have ended up on both sides of this battle, and it almost always strongly favors the phoenix player. It basically just gives him complete map control for the entire game, which means he always gets complete scouting and thus can play greedier than you (earlier 3rd, chrono on probes while threatening 2 base all-in, etc.). Also, 8 blink stalkers is not really enough to defend against the harass, you'll have to commit more stalkers - which is a problem since stalkers are weaker in the standard composition of colossus/zealot/archon vs colossus/zealot/archon. So then you end up with both a weaker and smaller army and just get rolled over. I would recommend some sort of 2 base all-in, or if you're going to go for a macro game at least make a LOT of blink stalker at first to completely shut down the phoenix harass and take some map control back for yourself, and then use your own blink stalker to harass and allow yourself to get your 3rd faster. Also, go chargelot/archon or immortal/sentry if the phoenix player commits to a high immortal count as a reaction to your mass of blink stalkers. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote: You lazy person rsvp answered this in the last page: Also, go chargelot/archon or immortal/sentry if the phoenix player commits to a high immortal count as a reaction to your mass of blink stalkers. This is 327 pages long. I checked the OP for the new more in depth post. I havent been following the thread or playing as much lately but started to get back onto ladder yesterday  But yeah, I've been thinking of trying a 6 gate blink all in a la Oz. | ||
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UntoTheBreach
25 Posts
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On September 15 2012 22:29 UntoTheBreach wrote: I just got beat by a Terran who played mass helions, siege tanks, a few thors and vikings. I had no idea what to do against such a composition. I went mainly zealots + 4 collossi + immortals, hoping that at 3 armour the zealots would soak up enough damage for my collossi and immortals to own everything. But they just died instantly and then my collossi were faced with a choice between shooting siege tanks or hellions, and then they died too. What should I do? You can't go zealots. Stalkers don't have a high enough rate of fire, I would think. I was hesitant to use high templars because they die so easily against blue flame. Maybe archons? Maybe nothing but immortals from 3, 4 robos to force him into abandoning mass hellions in favour of marines? Any ideas? You should get attack first then armor against mech...or go double forge High templar/immortal/chargelot/stalker/archon with a sentry during midgame mech...you want to eventually start Colo production bc mass hellions will be hard to deal with. I think 6 immos is a good number then try to get Colo...also if you spot mech, try to get a 3rd relatively early...have cannons near mineral lines to deal with hellions a bit better And you should try to engage them when unsiege and/or get a flank off with chargelots | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
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