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On September 12 2012 09:55 Mavvie wrote:Ahhhhh so annoying. What do I do upon scouting CC first? I do MC's 1gate FE, so I end up WAY behind economically it's not even funny. I basically lost the game as soon as he was in the last position second position I scouted. But yeah. If I do a 13 scout and don't find his CC first until I've already gotten a gate, core, and zealot, how can I get back into the game? Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/251390I know that I made mistakes -- I teched way too hard, not even being able to afford to produce. I then got destroyed by a flank, because I had no sentries (mistake I think?) I could've cancelled the Zealot if I noticed his CC before returning to his natural @3:45. or was more familiar with the timings. These are all easy to correct with experience (6 games played as Protoss lol), so I just want to know what to do upon scouting that I'm really far behind. Edit: oops, three posts in a row D: Also, if I didn't GG in that game, it's because the last 2 games I lost to marine/scv 3 rax all-in where he built a bunker and hid the other 2 rax to make it look like an expand, and the other game was a 1 base spine crawler rush (what the hell), so I was pretty frustrated. "More GG, more skill"
1. You don't end up WAY economically behind if your opponent goes cc first. You are minimally behind, it's not a significant game changer. The difference between 15 cc and 1 rax FE is actually not that big (such as compared to 15 nex vs 1 gate FE) since that first orbital is slower. To negate the difference even more you can drop your nexus before any units. In this game you made a zealot and stalker and 3rd pylon before your nexus, all which could have been cancelled/delayed until after you put down your natural.
If anything build-wise put you behind, it wasn't the 15 cc, it was more his fast 3rd with fast upgrades. Even though you started your forges super early he attacked at 2-2 while you were still 2-2 as well... with an army that was considerably bigger due to his greedier macro build. To deal with that, you need to scout it earlier (with faster obs) and react to it, whether its by putting pressure on him or by getting your own 3rd faster (more on that later).
2. I don't like your build. You get an extremely early double forge, but then you also tech to colossus really fast. It's really not safe, and you were just fortunate that your opponent went for an early 3rd cc with fast upgrades instead of doing a more standard 2 medivac timing. Your obs was late too, by the time your obs got to his base a standard 2 medivac timing would have been walking across the map while your army consisted of 3 zealots 1 stalker and a halfway finished colossus.
When you go double forge with colossus like that ("creator style") there's 2 schools of thought IMO. You either 1) go for colossus first, then drop the double forges sometime as your colossus bay is going up, and you spend chronos getting your colossus tech up. This allows you to get colossus up fast enough to defend against the 2 medivac timing, as well as giving you aggressive options against a fast 3rd cc as your opponent did this game, since his medivacs were delayed. Or, if you just want the fast upgrades, you can focus on those and twilight council upgrades, and delay starting your colossus bay until about 10:00-12:00 into the game. By delaying your colossus you'll have more money to get units out to defend earlier, while using all your chronos on forge upgrades so that you can get a really fast 3-3 and come out with an extremely strong 200/200 army early on.
3. Sentries! Why no sentries? If you're lazy you should still have at least 1 just for the guardian shield. But if you want to get better, knowing how to use forcefields is probably the number 1 skill of a high level protoss player.
4. Blink before charge or charge before blink? If you go blink before charge, your army should be mostly colossus-stalker WITH sentries. However, with the zealot heavy and sentryless army you had, it seemed like you just wanted to a-move into things which meant charge before blink would have suited you much better.
5. Yea you got flanked and your engagement micro was bad, but that's just something that improves with practice. If anything, I recommend making more observers so you can keep track of his army movements to avoid being suprrised/flanked like that. In my games I always get 3 observers, and if they scan to kill them, I prioritize rebuilding observers over additional colossus. Map vision is just that important to me.
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I am a current low level Plat, last season rank 7 plat.
Having major issues with all zerg roach builds just crushing my FFE. I've tried robo builds to try and take my 3rd, which I might get up and running, only to get steam rolled shortly after around 12 mins. I've treid a 8:00 min 7 gate push to deny their 3rd, and even sometimes when I can take down the 3rd, there are still too many roaches and some lings for me to handle.
Every zerg game I play is this roach based army. I find it impossible to deal with.
I have a harder time unless I can get to 3 bases, where I can get the gas to support templar and colossus tech, but that doesnt happen often, about 1 in 20 or 30 games can I manage it.
I won't get into Muta ling on 2 base - I just cannot expand or get out to a 3rd unless I get a MONEY storm or blink. Otherwise its GG.
I am growing to the point of just uninstalling the game a 2nd time (I quit for a month a while back) because zerg is so impossible to play against.
I am having no issues with terrans, its about 50/50 win loss there, maybe a bit better that 50%.
I am getting CRUSHED this season. Every match my opponent is favored or slightly favored, and I have tried everything in my arsenal. The only win I have this season is where I cannoned both the natural and 3rd of a zerg to deny him expansion, and I managed to take mine late but unmollested.
PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!
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On September 12 2012 12:37 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I am a current low level Plat, last season rank 7 plat.
Having major issues with all zerg roach builds just crushing my FFE. I've tried robo builds to try and take my 3rd, which I might get up and running, only to get steam rolled shortly after around 12 mins. I've treid a 8:00 min 7 gate push to deny their 3rd, and even sometimes when I can take down the 3rd, there are still too many roaches and some lings for me to handle.
Every zerg game I play is this roach based army. I find it impossible to deal with.
I have a harder time unless I can get to 3 bases, where I can get the gas to support templar and colossus tech, but that doesnt happen often, about 1 in 20 or 30 games can I manage it.
I won't get into Muta ling on 2 base - I just cannot expand or get out to a 3rd unless I get a MONEY storm or blink. Otherwise its GG.
I am growing to the point of just uninstalling the game a 2nd time (I quit for a month a while back) because zerg is so impossible to play against.
I am having no issues with terrans, its about 50/50 win loss there, maybe a bit better that 50%.
I am getting CRUSHED this season. Every match my opponent is favored or slightly favored, and I have tried everything in my arsenal. The only win I have this season is where I cannoned both the natural and 3rd of a zerg to deny him expansion, and I managed to take mine late but unmollested.
PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!
1. Post replays. Dealing with roach timings is more than just having the right build order; army positioning and how you use your units is paramount. It's impossible to help you with this, without seeing you actually play first.
2. Don't worry about your record/rank. Just play to win each game, one game at a time. It's nice to have goals about hitting another league, but ultimately if you're thinking about quitting then you're probably too goal-oriented right now.
3. Maybe you're playing builds that aren't your style at all. The industry standard for PvZ has been FFE into Blink Stalkers as the core of your army, with some robo units and then eventually templar tech and mothership. However, that doesn't mean it's right for you--it certainly isn't my style. I like putting the zerg on his back food with 13 gate openings and early pressure, into Phoenix play, into a heavily-ugraded Chargelot army with some Immortals as back-up. That's completely different from the norm, but it works for me (when my brain doesn't break from all the necessary multitasking of such a strategy). Regardless, my point here is: if you're not enjoying the game, you're not winning much at all in a match-up, you probably should do something completely different in your games. Think about it.
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I've been having some issues versus mutalisks lately, at the Diamond level
http://drop.sc/251417
+ Show Spoiler [my analysis] +So at like 5:20 I see a gas, that he tried his best to hide, and no third; so I'm thinking it's cheese I add 3 cannons at the front, and a pylon near the backdoor rocks with a single cannon. But no allin, he just adds a late third base. Seeing as how he has no units on the map, a low larve count, and no gas related tech besides speed--he must have never been planning to allin, in fact, I'm not really sure what he had in mind. I'm also not sure if building that many cannons set me behind as much as his late third base, along with his relatively low drone count.
After seeing no allin, I get a robo and 3 gates, my 3rd and 4th gas, then break down the rocks to expand. During this period my minerals go up to 2k, until I am able to put down my tech. Is it okay to let them build, because I'm going to add gates soon, or should I try to get my 3rd down before the rocks are destroyed, even though it's in danger of ling harass?
His first 11 mutas arrive at like 12:40, and kill some probes because I placed my cannons badly. I'm slowly on my way to storm, but I can't cover against these mutas effectively, I feel that if I split my stalkers, the flock can overwhelm them. This becomes more and more of an issues as theeee flock grows in size. In some misguided desperation I mount an attack, but his mutas disembowl me at home, he still has 3 bases, and now he has roaches; I call GG (because fuck capslock).
For this game I simply ask, how could I have defended better, what are some pointers for refining my response to something weird?
http://drop.sc/251414
+ Show Spoiler [my analysis] +This game opens with a pretty normal 3 hatch build, one again while expanding I have that mineral build until the gates are down. Also, should I add the gates before or after the gases? I'm not sure myself. Oh and I played this game before I read NrGmonks review of the finals of the TSL4, where he said that Protoss who take a third with immortals get 2-3 obs; where I usually get one, obviously having more observers will help defend mutas. This game I defend the mutas and take pretty much no significant damage. But that doesn't matter too much because unlike my previous opponent, this Zerg is not trying to kill me with mutas, he is merely trying to establish a 4th and get broodlord infestor along with tons of spines. But for some reason, I seem to attack anyway, I cannon up my bases and move out with templar, sentries and stalkers--which get roflstomped. Obviously a push is just not a viable option, and I scouted the BL-infes tech, so I should have known this, though I usually try to kill Zergs with Stalker/sentry/immortal pushes off of 3 base, in this game was their any convievable timing attack that could have been done, or should I have gone for a 4th and a mothership+archons? if so, when do I take my 4th?
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I am not posting replays. I am looking for suggested builds etc, not ruthless criticism from TL trolls. Granted there are those here that are here to help, but a vast majority just want to pump themselves up and make themselves look good and how crappy anyone but a GM is.
Really looking for well rounded builds, the basic meat and potatoes of how to approach the matchup - like your suggestion of your multitasking nightmare of an attack.
I am good at macro games. My micro is horrible and is getting better. But, when you are protoss vs a zerg which wants to macro, and knows I cannot do any major damage to him in the early game, so he's safe to the mid game, it makes it tough for me. I get the constant feeling of being pinned down, and the inevitable roach smashing is coming.
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Recently I've been favoring 1 base colossus all-ins in PvP, as I don't really enjoy the later stages of macro games. I usually opt for a 1 gate robo opening into 2 more gates. In a standard game, when should I ideally be placing down my robo bay after I've ruled out 4 gates and other early all-in shennanigans? Should I build it as my first immortal is making, or earlier/later? Also, if I scout a stargate opening, should I be cancelling my bay on account of being kind of hard countered, or is there a possible way I can still viably proceeed with a colossus all-in?
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On September 12 2012 13:44 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I am not posting replays. I am looking for suggested builds etc, not ruthless criticism from TL trolls. Granted there are those here that are here to help, but a vast majority just want to pump themselves up and make themselves look good and how crappy anyone but a GM is.
Really looking for well rounded builds, the basic meat and potatoes of how to approach the matchup - like your suggestion of your multitasking nightmare of an attack.
I am good at macro games. My micro is horrible and is getting better. But, when you are protoss vs a zerg which wants to macro, and knows I cannot do any major damage to him in the early game, so he's safe to the mid game, it makes it tough for me. I get the constant feeling of being pinned down, and the inevitable roach smashing is coming.
Right now for me the most well rounded build for PvZ is the 1 gate expo quickly plant 2 gates after your nexus to make a wall or sometimes 2 gates + a forge, move out around 6 with 4 sentries and 4 zealots and just shark around their base to force them to make units and not max out on drones. I follow up with a stargate because I found that when you 1 gate fe Zergs will overmake lings so they follow up with mutas so I get 4-5 phoenix and go and harass and try to kill their queens. If I scout no mutas coming and they are 3 bases with roaches I just sit on 2 base for a while deny scouting with phoenix and get colossus at home and try to safely take a 3rd and go into normal macro game.
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Italy12247 Posts
On September 12 2012 13:44 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I am not posting replays. I am looking for suggested builds etc, not ruthless criticism from TL trolls. Granted there are those here that are here to help, but a vast majority just want to pump themselves up and make themselves look good and how crappy anyone but a GM is.
Really looking for well rounded builds, the basic meat and potatoes of how to approach the matchup - like your suggestion of your multitasking nightmare of an attack.
I am good at macro games. My micro is horrible and is getting better. But, when you are protoss vs a zerg which wants to macro, and knows I cannot do any major damage to him in the early game, so he's safe to the mid game, it makes it tough for me. I get the constant feeling of being pinned down, and the inevitable roach smashing is coming.
If you bothered to search, you would find the builds you are talking about really easily by typing [G] PvZ in the search bar. If you want anything more specific you have to post replays.
@poster above me: if he has trouble playing FFE openings, the solution is to fix his FFE openings not to steer clear away from them doing 1gate fe.
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On September 12 2012 13:44 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I am not posting replays. I am looking for suggested builds etc, not ruthless criticism from TL trolls. Granted there are those here that are here to help, but a vast majority just want to pump themselves up and make themselves look good and how crappy anyone but a GM is.
Why even ask anyone for help, then? You're just putting yourself at risk to be ridiculed for being Platinum. Oh no, trolls exist...I guess I'll never be able to get help on the TL forums in a million billion years.
What's with all these people lately who are too scared/proud to post replays when they want help? I don't get it. It's not like they're preparing for a major tournament and they have to keep the builds hidden.
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Hello people.. just wondered if I can get some input on this replay. It's a PvP, my most hated matchup because it always is either cheese, or who has more colossi and positioning. My play tries to avoid colossi because everytime i do it feels as tho its so coinflippy even if i feel im ahead.
http://drop.sc/251561
but..... as its the standard way to play and probably is the best way to play I guess i should start, so this is a replay of a guy who cannon rushes, I manage to hold it off and feel v far ahead, but the other guy manages to catch up and I end up losing after a few colossi scuffles.
Q1: Should I have expanded or just gone and killed him on one base once his cannon rush failed as he was so far behind in tech,
Q2: In the situation I was in after both expands where do u think i Could have improved to turn this into a win ? I did note how awful my probe macro was in this game, as the other guy caught up with me because i played sloppy, but even so I felt I had the colossi adv.
Thanks 
ps. forgot to mention im platinum
pps dammit lol.. Im IBex in this replay if you werent sure ;/
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I'm looking for some replays which are showing a FFE into some colossus play or templar. Does anyone know some good replays or a player that prefers playing one of these styles?
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So when i first started i only 4gated pvp and was good at it, then as i climbed ladder it didn't work anymore. Then i started 3gate robo and i started expanding and stuff like that and it worked well, PvP was my best match up.
I climbed lader once again, and again i suck at PvP.
So, any suggestion on what build should i do? What should my midgame composition be? Any good guides to PvP?
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On September 12 2012 14:22 Chandra wrote:
Recently I've been favoring 1 base colossus all-ins in PvP, as I don't really enjoy the later stages of macro games. I usually opt for a 1 gate robo opening into 2 more gates. In a standard game, when should I ideally be placing down my robo bay after I've ruled out 4 gates and other early all-in shennanigans? Should I build it as my first immortal is making, or earlier/later? Also, if I scout a stargate opening, should I be cancelling my bay on account of being kind of hard countered, or is there a possible way I can still viably proceeed with a colossus all-in?
I've been doing this all in for a while and this is what I've noticed, I think it's best to start with 1 gae robo and then add another gate. Throw down the robo bay after your first immortal is making, and keep cb on robo, warp in only zealots until your making your colossus, then you can use gas for stalkers or sentries, throw down 2 more gates when your colossus is ~75% done, and move out throw down proxy pylon outside opponents natural and if your timing is good the gates should get done in time for one 4 gate warpin and then you push. You should have a colossus 2 immortals at least one sentry (you have to get a sentry for 1 gate tech) lots zealots and a couple stalkers. You should ideally be at your opponents doorstep at ~9:30. If your opponent doesn't have an expo he prolly is also going 1 base colossus, you can throw your expo up and play macro if you want or try to break up his main ramp but it's risky.
In response to 4 gate, if you scout and see signs of 4 gate (no 2nd gas, no third pylon, lots of chrono) I would go 2 gates and then robo and gets at least two sentries and spend another chrono on wg research, just what I've found helpful.
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If you really want to tax yourself (makes you improve faster but you'll lose a lot) I think you should try Phoenix builds in pvp. They give you early scouting information, and there are very few build order losses if you do Gate Stargate Gate Robo (I belive the only real BO loss is a Blink allin).
If you don't want that, consider 2 gate robo expand or standard 3 gate Blink Obs (which is also very difficult).
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Thanks for the ideas. So, not a great deal that is new here, force zerg to make units, or punish them. Use somewhat stale dated stargate openings which force infestor tech. One good idea for a micro intensive approach. And some links.
To those that insist. I will not post replays. I am looking for meta game ideas - how to approach the matchup, not individual replay analysis. Given your negative tone, I can garner the quality and tone of your analysis and how it would be regardless. See previous comments about replay analysis trolls. And I wish mods would warn people for making singular line negatively toned posts, just for the sake of making a post. Thanks for the links though Sated.
So, I guess since no one has a real in depth idea to attack this matchup, I am back to watching pro's to steal ideas.
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On September 12 2012 11:26 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 09:55 Mavvie wrote:Ahhhhh so annoying. What do I do upon scouting CC first? I do MC's 1gate FE, so I end up WAY behind economically it's not even funny. I basically lost the game as soon as he was in the last position second position I scouted. But yeah. If I do a 13 scout and don't find his CC first until I've already gotten a gate, core, and zealot, how can I get back into the game? Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/251390I know that I made mistakes -- I teched way too hard, not even being able to afford to produce. I then got destroyed by a flank, because I had no sentries (mistake I think?) I could've cancelled the Zealot if I noticed his CC before returning to his natural @3:45. or was more familiar with the timings. These are all easy to correct with experience (6 games played as Protoss lol), so I just want to know what to do upon scouting that I'm really far behind. Edit: oops, three posts in a row D: Also, if I didn't GG in that game, it's because the last 2 games I lost to marine/scv 3 rax all-in where he built a bunker and hid the other 2 rax to make it look like an expand, and the other game was a 1 base spine crawler rush (what the hell), so I was pretty frustrated. "More GG, more skill" 1. You don't end up WAY economically behind if your opponent goes cc first. You are minimally behind, it's not a significant game changer. The difference between 15 cc and 1 rax FE is actually not that big (such as compared to 15 nex vs 1 gate FE) since that first orbital is slower. To negate the difference even more you can drop your nexus before any units. In this game you made a zealot and stalker and 3rd pylon before your nexus, all which could have been cancelled/delayed until after you put down your natural. If anything build-wise put you behind, it wasn't the 15 cc, it was more his fast 3rd with fast upgrades. Even though you started your forges super early he attacked at 2-2 while you were still 2-2 as well... with an army that was considerably bigger due to his greedier macro build. To deal with that, you need to scout it earlier (with faster obs) and react to it, whether its by putting pressure on him or by getting your own 3rd faster (more on that later). 2. I don't like your build. You get an extremely early double forge, but then you also tech to colossus really fast. It's really not safe, and you were just fortunate that your opponent went for an early 3rd cc with fast upgrades instead of doing a more standard 2 medivac timing. Your obs was late too, by the time your obs got to his base a standard 2 medivac timing would have been walking across the map while your army consisted of 3 zealots 1 stalker and a halfway finished colossus. When you go double forge with colossus like that ("creator style") there's 2 schools of thought IMO. You either 1) go for colossus first, then drop the double forges sometime as your colossus bay is going up, and you spend chronos getting your colossus tech up. This allows you to get colossus up fast enough to defend against the 2 medivac timing, as well as giving you aggressive options against a fast 3rd cc as your opponent did this game, since his medivacs were delayed. Or, if you just want the fast upgrades, you can focus on those and twilight council upgrades, and delay starting your colossus bay until about 10:00-12:00 into the game. By delaying your colossus you'll have more money to get units out to defend earlier, while using all your chronos on forge upgrades so that you can get a really fast 3-3 and come out with an extremely strong 200/200 army early on. 3. Sentries! Why no sentries? If you're lazy you should still have at least 1 just for the guardian shield. But if you want to get better, knowing how to use forcefields is probably the number 1 skill of a high level protoss player. 4. Blink before charge or charge before blink? If you go blink before charge, your army should be mostly colossus-stalker WITH sentries. However, with the zealot heavy and sentryless army you had, it seemed like you just wanted to a-move into things which meant charge before blink would have suited you much better. 5. Yea you got flanked and your engagement micro was bad, but that's just something that improves with practice. If anything, I recommend making more observers so you can keep track of his army movements to avoid being suprrised/flanked like that. In my games I always get 3 observers, and if they scan to kill them, I prioritize rebuilding observers over additional colossus. Map vision is just that important to me.
Awesome reply, thanks!
1. Oops, totally forgot about that. I felt like it was similar to ZvT, where if he goes CC first I should /reactively/ go 3 hatch before pool. I suppose cancelling stalker and getting faster nexus is good idea. And not overreacting to his slightly better build.
2. Yeah I don't like it either xD I have had no time to refine builds, and my mechanics are still zerg-y. Cancelling a unit? lol that's a waste of larvae, never cancel units. I suppose if I cancelled at least the stalker I wouldn't have needed a pylon, so my nexus would've been ~25 seconds faster. True, I got so much tech so fast I couldn't do anything and had no units. Bad observer timing, I was actually winging this build off what I (apparently don't) know about the metagame, being:
1g FE -> 3gate robo -> double forge 5gate expo or 3gate robo expo -> double forge 7+gate macro
I read monk's PvT "Creator Prime" style (had never heard of this before ^^), and feel that I won't make the fast-everything-tech mistake again. I was under the misconception that I needed fast colossi to deal with medivac timings, but now I know how to defend such things.
3. Again, a shitty build caused that :D I usually go up to 6 or 8 sentries in all matchups except PvP (and PvZ lategame), just because of how much I think forcefields are powerful. With CreatorPrime's style I know to get four of them, and I know to delay them if he's being aggressive (stalker/zealot instead)
4. I just have bad memories of when I used to play Protoss and would go mostly and die to marauders :C I suppose I can get stalkers, they just feel like roaches (suck in combat, countered by everything while countering nothing, cost gas which delays tech). I guess stalkers shoot up so that's good. I'll be sure to make stalkers so that I can actually use blink!
5. Yeah I didn't expect him to attack. To be honest I think the game was lost before he even attacked me; he had a huge macro lead the whole time.
In my time laddering (and getting cheesed every game except one this whole season), I'd like to ask:
1) How do I defend a 1base speed -> lair spine crawler rush? I scouted 14/14, but didn't know how to react. I hear that FFE is safe with proper scouting, and because of his wonky build I knew that something cheesy was up. I simcitied, but the 5-6 spines and 30 speedlings broke my wall and then ran by. I won't provide replay because my game minimized right as I moved down my ramp (lol), but it was clear he was all-in and I knew it was a lair tech all-in, just didn't know what to do.
2) How to deal with speedling drop all-ins? I can't defend them with simcity, and even if I suspect it I don't know how to counter it. Stalkers get eaten by lings and zealots can't shoot up O.o
3) 3 racks T_______T If I'm opening 1g FE and I suspect 3rax cheese, what should I do? Make zealot->stalker->1 sentry to forcefield rines away from SCVs? I hear that you really need to micro your ass off...what should my build change to when I suspect or scout it?
I don't need comprehensive answers to these, just a general idea of what the weakness of these all-ins are. I know how to defend all the XvZ all ins, but that doesn't help me much as Protoss xD
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1) Mass zealot. If it hits early, just make more gates, cut probes, and chrono zealots out of gateways. If it's a bit later, you might have time for warpgate tech to finish and/or even +1, but you still go mass gate mass zeal. If you spot it early making cannons in front of your wall helps too.
2) While you end up chronoing your warpgate tech in most builds, it is imperative against 2 base builds to chrono out your warpgate tech to get it asap. Meanwhile you'll need at least 4 gates ready. Your warpgate tech should finish around the same time as the drop comes (7:30-8:00, maybe), and from there on out just mass zeal. It also helps as an added safety to put a cannon in your mineral line, which will help against many 2 base plays such as nydus, any kind of drop, 2 base muta. I don't know why you need to worry about shooting up. If I get suspicious of a 2 base all-in I like to put a cannon in both mineral lines at around 6:30-7:00 into the game.
3) I'm going to assume you're talking about really early rax pressure that comes before stim, and often with scvs. In that case I suggest not making any sentries and go pure zealot/stalker. Sentries are less useful when you only have enough to cast very few forcefields and also when both armies are relatively small (and when you have to defend a wider natural choke as opposed to a ramp to your main). If I scout any build with gas I always make sure to chrono out the warpgate tech, and if you do so you will have warpgate tech ready by the time the attack comes. Then just make only zealot/stalker and pull probes if necessary. If he pulls ALL his scvs then it may not be a bad idea to just sac your natural and sentry up in your main.
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On September 13 2012 11:00 rsvp wrote:
1) Mass zealot. If it hits early, just make more gates, cut probes, and chrono zealots out of gateways. If it's a bit later, you might have time for warpgate tech to finish and/or even +1, but you still go mass gate mass zeal. If you spot it early making cannons in front of your wall helps too.
2) While you end up chronoing your warpgate tech in most builds, it is imperative against 2 base builds to chrono out your warpgate tech to get it asap. Meanwhile you'll need at least 4 gates ready. Your warpgate tech should finish around the same time as the drop comes (7:30-8:00, maybe), and from there on out just mass zeal. It also helps as an added safety to put a cannon in your mineral line, which will help against many 2 base plays such as nydus, any kind of drop, 2 base muta. I don't know why you need to worry about shooting up. If I get suspicious of a 2 base all-in I like to put a cannon in both mineral lines at around 6:30-7:00 into the game.
3) I'm going to assume you're talking about really early rax pressure that comes before stim, and often with scvs. In that case I suggest not making any sentries and go pure zealot/stalker. Sentries are less useful when you only have enough to cast very few forcefields and also when both armies are relatively small (and when you have to defend a wider natural choke as opposed to a ramp to your main). If I scout any build with gas I always make sure to chrono out the warpgate tech, and if you do so you will have warpgate tech ready by the time the attack comes. Then just make only zealot/stalker and pull probes if necessary. If he pulls ALL his scvs then it may not be a bad idea to just sac your natural and sentry up in your main.
1. That makes sense, but I still don't know how I can scout/react to the build. I scout a 15 pool (gas taken at 14 means that 14/14 is basically 15 pool timing but with less possible lings), so I go 17 nexus forge gate pylon (probes) cannon double gas. I scout that he's mined >100 gas, but because of queen/ling I can't reliably scout if he has a lair or baneling nest or roach warren. What do I do? I have a forge, gateway, cannon, cybercore, and 2 nexuses. Should I throw down 2-3 more gates after scouting all-in play with >100 gas always? I feel that mass zealot isn't the answer against baneling (or especially roach) busts. Perhaps I have to get 2-3 more gates and a few cannons and a few sentries to be safe from both?
2. Ok, so if I scout 2 base play I should basically do 4gate +1 pressure, but instead of pressure I warp in in my base? Awesome. Good idea with cannons, I imagine that's good against baneling drops too. I need to worry about shooting up because if he goes muta and I have zealot/sentry I'm boned. But again, scouting I should be fine. I'll be sure to keep this in mind.
3. Yeah, gasless 3 rax marine/scv all-in. I know there's no chance of defending an expansion, so I don't even expand. This situation I'm at 1 gate, with a zealot and a sentry and 1 gas. I just scout/suspect that 3 rax is coming, what do I do? Do I take a second gas? Do I make a sentry to forcefield the SCV's away? Do I take a second gas and get 1 (or 2?) more gates? Just general build adaptations. I guess zealot/stalker works, but when I've played against it I have 3 units out of a 1g build, and 4 out of a reactive 2gate build. Even 4 units is no match against ~12 marines and 12 scv's. I feel like I need the forcefield, at least one, on my ramp. I imagine that simcity at my ramp isn't a bad idea to buy time, but again I'm not sure. I don't have warpgate done by when this hits (~5:00 I think)
Thanks again!
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1) You have enough time to start massing zeal when you see creep in front of your base. It takes time for him to get spines up and tear down your wall. You don't even need a lair to spine crawler rush, there's a faster variant where you get an early pool and walk your first queen across the map, hatch cancel for creep, lay a tumor, and bring some drones. While sentries can be useful in some situations, imo it's much easier to just only get zeal and a-move to win.
2) You don't want to pre-emptively warp in zealots in your base if you don't know what he's doing. Everytime I get hit with this 2 base speedling drop the drop actually arrives either right before my warpgates finish or right as it finishes. If your warpgate tech is done and you still have no clue what he's doing, might as well warp those 4 zealots in offensively to poke/scout. As for 2 base muta, that timing hits way later. When you do 4 gate off of 2 base against 2 base play, you need a tech building as well whether its robo or stargate. Then you use obs or phoenix to scout, and you should be able to scout muta in time if he does go muta.
3) I thought you meant 3 rax marine/marauder. 3 rax marine/scv all-in is a bad build. It hits too late and toss will already have several gateway units, with warpgate tech finishing soon if it was chrono'ed. Sounds like you already have a sentry when you see this coming, and you should have time to either chrono out more sentries or your warpgate tech. With sentries shouldn't it be pretty easy to hold your ramp? 2 rax marine/scv all-in where you pretty much attack as soon as you get 4-5 marines is much more deadly since toss has only 1 or at most 2 units out. Either way I personally don't make early sentries, and if I see something like this coming I chrono stalkers, and kite the train all the way back to my base, and then its a micro war. Of course you will have to pull probes, try to surround the marines with the probes and avoid the scvs (make sure to use a lot of mineral walking). If you open with zealot stalker or just stalkers your first units should always poke so you should always see this attack coming as it is leaving his base.
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EPT
