EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 229
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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BreakeR.
Austria220 Posts
Thanks in advance and sorry for my bad english.^^ | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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gondolin
France332 Posts
Speciffically I try to aim for Macro builds. - What's a good number of gates by base to aim for (when including a robo, or when excluding one)? (Before the max out into mass gates for warp in). For instance in TvP I know that I can go to 5 raxes and 1 starport on two bases (after 3 raxes into starport to get the tech up, more generally I aim for 3 units structure by base). - What are good timings for gases? For instance in TvZ, I know that I need one gas for my stim/combat shield, one for the upgrades and one for the reactored medivacs. So as long as I stay on bio, I can stay on 3 gases, and take my fourth when I want tanks. I really lack these informations for Protoss, and I think it is really important to have a good lean build! Also while I am at it: what to do in PvZ after a FFE when you scout that the zerg stays on 2 bases? Obviously it is a good situation for P, so I guess you need to prepare for all ins or mutas, so I was wondering what the game plan is. You want sentries to prevent all ins, and should you go robo into obs immortal to scout the zerg game plan, or go fast blink with hallu to scout to prepare for mutas? Thanks in advance! | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:37 aZealot wrote: Any tips on dealing with gas steals in PvZ? I open with a Gate-Core and have been finding a few Zergs stealing my second gas. Apart from being more alert to this sort of stuff, is there anything else recommended? Should I steal one right back? I'm not sure if it is worth it, as I need the 2 gases for Sentries and the mineral cost is 75 from me to 25 from him (plus the drone). I just 4 gate when that happens. Zergs don't defend it lol | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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xarchaosx
United States89 Posts
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whistle
United States141 Posts
On May 03 2012 05:47 gondolin wrote:- What's a good number of gates by base to aim for (when including a robo, or when excluding one)? (Before the max out into mass gates for warp in). For instance in TvP I know that I can go to 5 raxes and 1 starport on two bases (after 3 raxes into starport to get the tech up, more generally I aim for 3 units structure by base). With a typical expansion build you'll end up with 3 gate robo, then add 3 gates once your tech is up (similar idea to adding 2 rax). Without a robo I often see initial 4 gate pressure into 8 gates (especially after a fast third). Since you're coming from terran it's important to keep in mind that warpgates are burst production while rax are constant production, so it's pretty common to have inactive warpgates while powering/teching. As a result you'll need more gateways than you can "support". Similar idea in PvZ FFE, you either do a warpgate allin with 6-10 gateways with or without tech, or try to expand with 4-6 gateways and stargate/robotics/twilight. Usually with 4 gates you do zealot pressure then do the following in some order: add a few more gates, add tech, add third. When I add bases in PvZ I always sim city with gateways so it's pretty easy to remember to add 2-3 gates per base. - What are good timings for gases? For instance in TvZ, I know that I need one gas for my stim/combat shield, one for the upgrades and one for the reactored medivacs. So as long as I stay on bio, I can stay on 3 gases, and take my fourth when I want tanks. For 1 gate expand add your second gas around 30 supply after you add production. If you're going quick colossus or templar then usually you'll add your third gas around the same time so that you can saturated it immediately upon nexus completion, then add the fourth soon after. if doing a fast third/warpgate pressure build you don't need the natural gases obviously. For double forge usually get both gases around the time you have about 10 probes at your natural. I don't think there are any common builds that deliberately stay on 3 gas rather than 4 gas for extended periods of time, although it's very possible that I'm just ignorant. Rule of thumb: when in doubt, I just get my natural gases right after I put down a robo/twilight, just like you'd get your natural gases after putting down a factory in TvP. With a FFE, double gas around 20-21 after your gateway. With stargate add 3rd gas after stargate starts then 4th gas when 3rd gas finishes. With robo there's some variations that use 3 gas and but most use 4 gas, either get a third gas when your core starts or double gas after you make the robo (I'm kind of hand waving here, I think these timings are more based off your specific build but "double gas after tech" still applies). You only need 3 gases for a blink allin but you can get 4 for sentries/dt followup. If you're doing 4 gate pressure into robo/twilight then get the extra gases after you put down the tech. Also while I am at it: what to do in PvZ after a FFE when you scout that the zerg stays on 2 bases? Obviously it is a good situation for P, so I guess you need to prepare for all ins or mutas, so I was wondering what the game plan is. You want sentries to prevent all ins, and should you go robo into obs immortal to scout the zerg game plan, or go fast blink with hallu to scout to prepare for mutas? Disclaimer: this happens so rarely that I don't really have much experience with it, maybe some better players will be able to shed light. However, personally I get an extra cannon and chronoboost a sentry as soon as I see there's no third around 5 minutes (then add more cannons if there's still no third as time goes on). Then I get a quickish robo for obs, then 5 more gateways and a twilight council for blink. I don't overcommit to immortals unless I figure out he's doing some weird 2 base lair delayed third roach build; blink helps vs muta builds, access to colossus helps against hydra/infestor builds. I see people on streams frequently go stargate since void rays are good vs roach busts, and air pressure is really good at applying follow-up pressure to low-economy zergs. Personally I don't like it because if they go hydras and wait for a critical mass to attack, I usually can't hold it with zealot/sentry/phoenix. --- P.S. anyone have thoughts on my question? On May 01 2012 10:21 whistle wrote: So I've got some relatively theoretical questions about this replay: http://drop.sc/169875 I won the game, so why do I post it, you ask? 1. I lost the majority of the major engagements. I am not a fan of losing my entire army. 2. I only won because of a base trade into archon toilet, which is an unreliable way to win at best and basically a coinflip. 3. We basically play NR20 on Daybreak and mine out most of the entire map. It's basically an ultra-late game match (yes, past normal late-game) and I don't think I'll get another replay like it for a very long time. I take a fast third and he decides to tech instead of trying to bust me, and the game goes into the late-game without any fights. We are too passive. I go for a void ray/carrier/archon/ht ball with mothership and stalker support, and he goes brood lord/queen/corruptor/infestor. Things I tried to do: - Stay ahead on income/bases. - Harass his tech/expansions. - Upgrade everything. - Add a shitton of production. - Feedback as many infestors/queens as I could before the battles. - Storm clumped air units. - Archon toilet! The main question is what do I do against his composition? There have been some several discussions about late-game PvZ and most people say the ideal composition is air with archon and HT support, but that's against a traditional air zerg, not one that makes so many queens. Maybe I should have used more colossus with rapid stalker reinforcements/high templar support once I realized he was going for more queens and less corruptors/brood lords? I didn't prepare my expansions/main for speedling attacks very well, but thankfully he didn't really feel like doing them. I also didn't focus fire my carriers onto his brood lords (rookie mistake). Other problems I had, or things I'd like tips with: - It's really hard to get templar in range of where I need them to storm when there is random shit everywhere (broodlings, infested terran eggs, fungal growth). Any tips? I may try carrying them in a warp prism PvT style but it really feels like an unnecessary tax on my shitty APM when EMP doesn't exist. - Queens wreck my air units. Storm is pretty bad against them. Feedback doesn't kill them, and transfuse is only part of the trouble. This is the reason I didn't get many many void rays, although I probably got a few too many carriers. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Supah
708 Posts
http://drop.sc/171043 Thor all in off 1 base. How do I even get a unit comp for that? Like, I got lucky he sent the Thor up front when I sent my Probe up. But, really, what the fuck. I lose an Immortal because of Scan+Strike Cannons, and then I just don't have the DPS to kill a Thor in a timely manner. The Marines shred the Zealots even with GS up. One Immortal wasn't in the fight during the decisive engagement, but there were so many Marines left that it wouldn't even matter if I had that. Anyone run into this before? What did you do? | ||
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Chrisadamley
7 Posts
On May 03 2012 12:30 Supah wrote: Um yeah, wtf http://drop.sc/171043 Thor all in off 1 base. How do I even get a unit comp for that? Like, I got lucky he sent the Thor up front when I sent my Probe up. But, really, what the fuck. I lose an Immortal because of Scan+Strike Cannons, and then I just don't have the DPS to kill a Thor in a timely manner. The Marines shred the Zealots even with GS up. One Immortal wasn't in the fight during the decisive engagement, but there were so many Marines left that it wouldn't even matter if I had that. Anyone run into this before? What did you do? Ok your build is fine up to the like, before you throw down your 2 extra gates. Your first unit out of your 1st gateway, mines usually a zealot, should go directly over to their base and check for an expo. if no expo check up ramp. if he doesn't have an expo by the time a zealot makes it over there, or maybe a little later, then you need to immediately drop a robo. Drop the robo BEFORE your 2 other gateways. As soon as you figure out hes not expoing get the robo. Then once robo is done get Collosus tech asap. obviously keep making probes during this time. Dont make any immortals they are worthless against this thor push and also in my opinion worthless against a 111 until after you have some colo out. While the support bay is building try and get an obs out in case its banshees. out of your 3 gates only focus on zealots unless you know how many if any banshees there are. If no banshees for sure, go all zealot and get out 2 collosus. I would also say get range as soon as you can. You need to tech fast because you dont need the early units. Hes not going to attack besides a couple hellion. So focus on buildings and upgrades. getting that colo out is most important and then just amke zealots and probs! let me know if that helps. I find that in my experience collosus is the best way to deal with this. It CAN be dealth with templar, but its harder and you really should be prudent and get the obs because odds are banshees will come with in different variations. Also collosus is good if its a 111 build as well. get range! Edit: Also, the reason collosus is good here is because when they target the thor the splash damage is needed to kill off the repairing scv's and marines. You will be surprised how easy you stop this with 2 collosus out and a bunch of zelaots. | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
I could use middle-pointer-middle pointer instead, but that way i don't have good coverage of my other control groups. I'm wondering do you use the method that i first talked about? Is it easy to spam or does it sort of hurt if you try to do it faster? Or do you use different fingers?. | ||
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RehnFreemark
Italy144 Posts
On May 03 2012 05:47 gondolin wrote: I am a master T that is trying to learn Toss (I already learned about Zergs!), and I have some questions that have probably already been answered, sorry about that! Speciffically I try to aim for Macro builds. - What's a good number of gates by base to aim for (when including a robo, or when excluding one)? (Before the max out into mass gates for warp in). For instance in TvP I know that I can go to 5 raxes and 1 starport on two bases (after 3 raxes into starport to get the tech up, more generally I aim for 3 units structure by base). Whistle was very precise in is answer, but just in case: you want to think roughly 3 gates per base + tech. The less tech you put down the more gates you can add if you choose to go gateway heavy (typical example is a 4 gate, that can go up to 7-8-9 gateways on 2 bases). It's pretty common to stay a bit on 2 bases-6 gates while you tech up and start adding the meat to that deathball, but something you may want to be very careful about is when you go on three bases, that's the point when you probably want to overdo your gateways a bit and get on 10-12, this is because once you have your tech up you'll be relying mostly on gateway units as reinforcements and it's better to have more gateways than you can sustain rather than more money than you can spend. The better your economy and your engagements go, the more gateway you can safely add so each time you warp in your hard earned money is turned into a big big army. - What are good timings for gases? For instance in TvZ, I know that I need one gas for my stim/combat shield, one for the upgrades and one for the reactored medivacs. So as long as I stay on bio, I can stay on 3 gases, and take my fourth when I want tanks. i don't want to give you bad info but obviously P is very, very gas dependant. Unless you are going for strong gateway timing pushes I'd suggest getting pretty early gas. I like to get my second gas very early (as soon as cybernetic core completes) in PvT and PvP, so I can go into robo as soon as possible, it's also easier to sustain sentry production in case of big early pushes. After that, 3rd and 4th go down usually around with the robo bay, but it depends a lot on what's going on. I really lack these informations for Protoss, and I think it is really important to have a good lean build! Also while I am at it: what to do in PvZ after a FFE when you scout that the zerg stays on 2 bases? Obviously it is a good situation for P, so I guess you need to prepare for all ins or mutas, so I was wondering what the game plan is. You want sentries to prevent all ins, and should you go robo into obs immortal to scout the zerg game plan, or go fast blink with hallu to scout to prepare for mutas? Thanks in advance! If you are not going to 2 base all in vs zerg, I think getting hallu is always a good idea, since vs zerg you generally want a ton of sentries anyway, and it's faster scouting than obs. Confirming whether it's a roach all in or mutas is ofc extremely important so the sooner the better. If you scout mutas in time you can go for a strong push right before, or right at the moment when the first batch of mutas pop out... bring a ton of zealots and a reasonable amount of stalkers and wreak havoc. If you scout roach, cannons + sentries is the way to go, while trying to go immortals. | ||
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xmikeyy17x
United States92 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On May 04 2012 03:17 xmikeyy17x wrote: what are some good PvZ 2 base all in's or pressures? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325014 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970 How goddamn hard is it to just search [g]... | ||
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xmikeyy17x
United States92 Posts
thanks tho. | ||
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darklight54321
United States361 Posts
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RehnFreemark
Italy144 Posts
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darklight54321
United States361 Posts
Whats the big news about stargate though? | ||
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