EPTi have a short question: How should the unitcount looks like, when i play a 2collos allin (pvp) with a 3Stalker opening.
Thx in advance.
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 230
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BreakeR.
Austria220 Posts
i have a short question: How should the unitcount looks like, when i play a 2collos allin (pvp) with a 3Stalker opening. Thx in advance. | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
Lately a lot of protoss's have been pulling probes of gas to get a quicker Nexus up (before cybercore In most cases) vs a no-gas terran build.. Do you guys think this is the most optimal way to expand in PvT? I like it because, if they do go for a gas ie 2 rax you can still play standard and do a MC 1 gate FE. However if you scout CC first or no gas, you can get your nexus up around 18-19 supply and continue with your build as normal.. but sometimes I wonder if I'm better off going nexus first or something on a map where you can assume the Terran will go no gas in which case getting your assimilator before your nexus is rather pointless. Basically, if you scout no gas it feels really pointless to continue with a normal MC-style expo where your nexus goes up from around 24-30 supply. Do you think this pull-probes-off-of-gas expo will become standard in PvT? | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:21 whistle wrote: So I've got some relatively theoretical questions about this replay: http://drop.sc/169875 I won the game, so why do I post it, you ask? 1. I lost the majority of the major engagements. I am not a fan of losing my entire army. 2. I only won because of a base trade into archon toilet, which is an unreliable way to win at best and basically a coinflip. 3. We basically play NR20 on Daybreak and mine out most of the entire map. It's basically an ultra-late game match (yes, past normal late-game) and I don't think I'll get another replay like it for a very long time. I take a fast third and he decides to tech instead of trying to bust me, and the game goes into the late-game without any fights. We are too passive. I go for a void ray/carrier/archon/ht ball with mothership and stalker support, and he goes brood lord/queen/corruptor/infestor. Things I tried to do: - Stay ahead on income/bases. - Harass his tech/expansions. - Upgrade everything. - Add a shitton of production. - Feedback as many infestors/queens as I could before the battles. - Storm clumped air units. - Archon toilet! The main question is what do I do against his composition? There have been some several discussions about late-game PvZ and most people say the ideal composition is air with archon and HT support, but that's against a traditional air zerg, not one that makes so many queens. Maybe I should have used more colossus with rapid stalker reinforcements/high templar support once I realized he was going for more queens and less corruptors/brood lords? I didn't prepare my expansions/main for speedling attacks very well, but thankfully he didn't really feel like doing them. I also didn't focus fire my carriers onto his brood lords (rookie mistake). Other problems I had, or things I'd like tips with: - It's really hard to get templar in range of where I need them to storm when there is random shit everywhere (broodlings, infested terran eggs, fungal growth). Any tips? I may try carrying them in a warp prism PvT style but it really feels like an unnecessary tax on my shitty APM when EMP doesn't exist. - Queens wreck my air units. Storm is pretty bad against them. Feedback doesn't kill them, and transfuse is only part of the trouble. This is the reason I didn't get many many void rays, although I probably got a few too many carriers. Only gonna comment on the big fight: Go carrier heavy and voidray light, especially vs mass queen. I wouldn't even get voidrays at all. Also, you got too many archons. They do nothing in a fight unless you get an insane vortex. Your engagement was really bad. Don't directly engage a bl based army. Use the carriers to siege the bls and force the corruptors to come to you while you can storm and vortex them. This is similar to how a zerg would siege with bls and keep all his ground units under them, daring you to blink under the bls. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
http://drop.sc/171622 I completely have no idea what to do vs terran in any stage of the game, you can see how clueless I am the entire replay for yourself.. Does anyone have tips vs terran and can show me why terran lategame sucks because frankly i dont see it... | ||
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Animzor
Sweden2154 Posts
On May 04 2012 14:20 Daimai wrote: Hey guys; just lost a lategame PvT versus some scrub on ladder: http://drop.sc/171622 I completely have no idea what to do vs terran in any stage of the game, you can see how clueless I am the entire replay for yourself.. Does anyone have tips vs terran and can show me why terran lategame sucks because frankly i dont see it... Why are you calling your opponent a scrub when he obviously played better than you did? and you probably shouldn't rely on your race being OP to be able to win. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
On May 04 2012 14:39 Animzor wrote: Why are you calling your opponent a scrub when he obviously played better than you did? and you probably shouldn't rely on your race being OP to be able to win. Because I was ahead the entire midgame and he even let me grab a third and never dropped me, also he lost his push at my third etc. Not to mention I lost 18 points off this game, meaning his rank sucks. But thats besides the point, I want to improve and thats why Im asking for help. | ||
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KiRiN
3 Posts
I watched your replay and here are some things I found 8:30 - try not to lose sentries during the drop. sometimes it is more effective to go to their mineral line (so their army takes longer to arrive) and force field his SCVs, trapping them 14:00 - you had a decisive lead. you could have shut down his 3rd if you had wanted to. why be passive when you can be active? 19:00ish - the T gets a planetary and starts to overtake you in upgrades. double forge perhaps? 20:00 - you had a bad battle with his cloaked ghosts. Late game PvT is a high templar vs ghost dance, and having many obs (along with obs speed, you were floating 1k/1k) will help greatly. If he gets mass EMPs off, just retreat and let your shields and energy recharge. You engaged with no shields, no obs, and only 1 storm. 26:00 - another fairly bad battle. Again, if you get mass EMPed, just retreat and recharge. 29:00 - you walk into a nuke. generally a bad idea =P 34:00 - again, engaging without enough observers 38:00 - all of your templar get EMPed. You also have no observer. In a late game PvT battle of equal size, P depends on storms to win. If the T gets all of your templar, the T will have a big advantage. A mothership in late game helps - you can vortex and draw viking fire away from your colossus. tldr, I would work on late game maxed engagements, using multiple observers to make sure his ghosts don't get all of your templar. | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
I've seen alot of protoss players use 1 nexus 234 as units, but what fingers do you use to spam those buttons?(11,22,11,22 etc) I find it difficult to spam 1(with my ring finger) and then 2(with my middle finger). I could use middle-pointer-middle pointer instead, but that way i don't have good coverage of my other control groups. I'm wondering do you use the method that i first talked about? Is it easy to spam or does it sort of hurt if you try to do it faster? Or do you use different fingers?. | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
Also, how has modern blink obs changed? Is the current standard to go gate->TC, gate, gate THEN add robo for the obs when you're about to start harassment? | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On May 05 2012 00:00 awwnuts07 wrote: NrGmonk wrote this blink obs guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772 but has freely admitted it is old and outdated. Is it still good for at least learning the theory behind the execution of the build? Also, how has modern blink obs changed? Is the current standard to go gate->TC, gate, gate THEN add robo for the obs when you're about to start harassment? Yes to both. Colossus transitions are also more common and easily done as people have figured out that any kind of zealot/archon timing isn't very scary as long as you see it coming and wall off your nat like you would in pvz to keep the zealots from hitting your colossi/blink stalkers/immortals. | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
On May 05 2012 00:29 Teoita wrote: Yes to both. Colossus transitions are also more common and easily done as people have figured out that any kind of zealot/archon timing isn't very scary as long as you see it coming and wall off your nat like you would in pvz to keep the zealots from hitting your colossi/blink stalkers/immortals. Should I just be massing stalkers while teching to colossi, or do I want to add in immortals before I make the leap to tier 3? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On May 05 2012 04:15 awwnuts07 wrote: Should I just be massing stalkers while teching to colossi, or do I want to add in immortals before I make the leap to tier 3? I honestly don't know too well my pvp is awful lol. Assuming you open blink, i think in blink/robo blink mirrors you get like 3-4 immortals first, if he went for an expand and is being more passive you can tech faster. You cut stalkers when you have 15 ish and use them to harass while you tech up. Cecil's vod of coaching me on the topic: http://it.twitch.tv/cecilsunkure/b/313600823 | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
On May 05 2012 04:19 Teoita wrote: I honestly don't know too well my pvp is awful lol. Assuming you open blink, i think in blink/robo blink mirrors you get like 3-4 immortals first, if he went for an expand and is being more passive you can tech faster. You cut stalkers when you have 15 ish and use them to harass while you tech up. Cecil's vod of coaching me on the topic: http://it.twitch.tv/cecilsunkure/b/313600823 thx. that helps a bunch | ||
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-YoricK-
United States476 Posts
What's a good game plan playing this style, i.e. when to get upgrades, when to add additional gates, when to tech to storm, and when to take the third? I've typically been opening 1 gate FE with double gas and 2 probes in gas, I use the extra gas to get more sentries and get an earlier TC (usually around 6 min, too early?) and then I do some 4 gate pressure while I add on a forge and tech to storm. The pressure almost always does a decent amount of damage and causes terrans to pull scvs, and I feel safe enough to take a 3rd after this. However, I almost always die or lose my third to the counter attack that comes after. Even with a chargelot heavy army and storms it seems like my army is just too small and I die to MMM kiting. Am I teching too fast and not adding enough gateways? I usually stay on 4 gateways until I take my third and focus on armor upgrades first. One thing I've noticed is that this style never seems to work on Cloud Kingdom, especially with a chargelot heavy army. There just isn''t enough surface area between the ramp and your third especially, I cannot count the number of times a terran has stimmed up the ramp at my third, killed my entire chargelot army while sitting in storms and then just killed everything else and wins the game right there. | ||
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MegaFonzie
Australia1084 Posts
On May 05 2012 17:29 -YoricK- wrote: So I have been trying to find a new PvT style, as I typically do the Creator style double forge and just turtle and play pretty passive and defend drops until I have my 3-3 deathball and win. Typically, TvP has been my best match-up playing like this but I've noticed a lot of pros now do heavy gateway styles with faster thirds and templar before colossus which seems a lot more fun. I have begun playing like this but my win-rate in TvP has just plummeted as of late, I always get crushed and it seems like I never have AoE or a big enough army up in time. What's a good game plan playing this style, i.e. when to get upgrades, when to add additional gates, when to tech to storm, and when to take the third? I've typically been opening 1 gate FE with double gas and 2 probes in gas, I use the extra gas to get more sentries and get an earlier TC (usually around 6 min, too early?) and then I do some 4 gate pressure while I add on a forge and tech to storm. The pressure almost always does a decent amount of damage and causes terrans to pull scvs, and I feel safe enough to take a 3rd after this. However, I almost always die or lose my third to the counter attack that comes after. Even with a chargelot heavy army and storms it seems like my army is just too small and I die to MMM kiting. Am I teching too fast and not adding enough gateways? I usually stay on 4 gateways until I take my third and focus on armor upgrades first. One thing I've noticed is that this style never seems to work on Cloud Kingdom, especially with a chargelot heavy army. There just isn''t enough surface area between the ramp and your third especially, I cannot count the number of times a terran has stimmed up the ramp at my third, killed my entire chargelot army while sitting in storms and then just killed everything else and wins the game right there. While I by no means am an expert, I have been trying a more templar oriented style over the Creator style lately for the same reason as you - that shit is just so much more fun. I still am relatively new to the style but picked up a few things from watching a bunch of vods of Parting. His ordering of buildings is almost always gate, nexus, 2 more gates, robo, forge, council, 2 more gates, templar archives, 2 more gates, and then 3rd. That brings you up to a total of 7 gateways and gives you a much easier time defending your third base. He prioritizes charge over storm and usually doesn't start storm tech until after his 3rd is well underway. Chargelot, archon forcefield is how to deal with most pushes. Another thing I noticed is that he makes 3 additional sentries followed by about 6-7 stalkers as his first few warp ins but then goes completely into zealots and templars after that. Chrono out a bunch of observers from your robo (usually 4). You'll learn where to position these on each map the more you practice, pretty much you just want them to cover any potential attack paths so you can position your army ahead of time. | ||
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hersimp
Norway40 Posts
1: High Templars vs Terran I am looking for some good tips on how to control them properly when attacking. I always have them on a own shortcut of course, but any good tips on how to control them well so you can drop storms instantly where you want? My problem is often that I have them on move command after some of my main army units, wich I dont think is good. But i'm abit afraid to keep them in front because of EMPS or getting sniped 2: Is there any good cheeses against zerg? I never do cheeses really, but I play alot against a zerg buddy where I wanna mix it up once in a while. I feel in general that cheese against zerg doesnt really work, but I'm sure theres some way to catch them off guard with a 1base thingie 3: Against 1base Colossus in PvP as the expanding player How do you deal with this in form of unit composition and in general? I'm talking about the 2 colossus with range and a 3rd on the way. Mainly zealots ofc, and a few sentries/stalkers. Maybe a immortal I feel that its so hard when being behind on the colossus count, and its not possible to match his colossus count when u expand right? Thanks in advance | ||
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How2getMaster
Germany124 Posts
Can someone pls watch this replay and tell me what went wrong. It´s a PvZ on Daybreak and he builds his hatch at my natual which delays all my timing-pushes so hard. I can´t figure out how to deal with this. Zerg doesnt suffer alot and just stomps me with roach and muta because I couldn´t apply pressure. http://drop.sc/173525 Greetings. | ||
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madhyene
France43 Posts
2- You have lots of cheses, which will be more or less effective depending on how well your opponnent scouts them. You can go for a 4 or 5 gate, or a mass +1 zealot attack, which is really horrible to deal with if you don't have roaches, you can go for a double stargate or even fast dts, if he is too greedy and takes a third without scouting you. You can also go for an immortal/sentry all-in around the 9 minutes mark where he should get absolutely destroyed. | ||
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alee103
17 Posts
I have a question specifically for PvZ on Daybreak. Oftentimes, I find myself having a really hard time securing a third on the map, as I'm still only a platinum and my macro/expansion timing isn't the best. Here's the thing, often when I try to secure a third, I'll try to wall off the third on Daybreak with gateway/cannons. Thing is, they almost always go the Stephano max roach/ling style and often does a 2 pronged attack, one on the third and one into my natural. Usually, I don't have enough of an army to deal with both side so I end up flustered and not sure which side to defend. Sorry, I don't have a video but can anyone give any general suggestions/build timings to help adjust for this? | ||
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uLysSeS1
Germany210 Posts
On May 05 2012 17:29 -YoricK- wrote: So I have been trying to find a new PvT style, as I typically do the Creator style double forge and just turtle and play pretty passive and defend drops until I have my 3-3 deathball and win. Typically, TvP has been my best match-up playing like this but I've noticed a lot of pros now do heavy gateway styles with faster thirds and templar before colossus which seems a lot more fun. I have begun playing like this but my win-rate in TvP has just plummeted as of late, I always get crushed and it seems like I never have AoE or a big enough army up in time. What's a good game plan playing this style, i.e. when to get upgrades, when to add additional gates, when to tech to storm, and when to take the third? I've typically been opening 1 gate FE with double gas and 2 probes in gas, I use the extra gas to get more sentries and get an earlier TC (usually around 6 min, too early?) and then I do some 4 gate pressure while I add on a forge and tech to storm. The pressure almost always does a decent amount of damage and causes terrans to pull scvs, and I feel safe enough to take a 3rd after this. However, I almost always die or lose my third to the counter attack that comes after. Even with a chargelot heavy army and storms it seems like my army is just too small and I die to MMM kiting. Am I teching too fast and not adding enough gateways? I usually stay on 4 gateways until I take my third and focus on armor upgrades first. One thing I've noticed is that this style never seems to work on Cloud Kingdom, especially with a chargelot heavy army. There just isn''t enough surface area between the ramp and your third especially, I cannot count the number of times a terran has stimmed up the ramp at my third, killed my entire chargelot army while sitting in storms and then just killed everything else and wins the game right there. http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-450-p1-parting-s-pvt-gateway-style-6104165 this video probably is what you are looking for!  | ||
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