EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 228
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Lafer
United States114 Posts
I feel stumped because I usually try to take out or delay the 3rd with a lot of sentries and zealots, and I succeed about half the time. However, even when I succeed, they still come at me with a ridiculous number of roaches and just run me over. I'll try to get the colossus up and try to forcefield them away. | ||
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oGsKneecap
16 Posts
PvZ: forge fast expand PvT: 1 gate FE PvP: 4 gate or 3 gate robo But, what should I try to do after these openings? unit compositions or anything like that would be helpful. | ||
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Payson
United States394 Posts
On May 01 2012 06:15 oGsKneecap wrote: Hello teamliquid. I recently switched to protoss from zerg, and I have a (hopefully) simple question. What opening / build should I try out in every match-up to get a hang of things? I was thinking somewhere along the lines of PvZ: forge fast expand PvT: 1 gate FE PvP: 4 gate or 3 gate robo But, what should I try to do after these openings? unit compositions or anything like that would be helpful. Off of the FFE you generally want to get a Stargate or Robotics to scout the Zerg. Then off of that, you can decide what unit composition you want to go with. Generally (not sure what league you are in) going Blink Stalkers + Colossi with Thermal Range off of two base is always effective in lower levels. PvT - Check out this guide from kcdc, really in-depth for PvT after you going One Gate FE. Your endgame army should consist of HT, Colossi, Chargelots, Sentries, a handful of Blink Stalkers for picking off Vikings. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339 As for PvP, this guide form NrGmonk is great after you cancel out a 4gate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329091 Your best bet in PvP is to open 1gate, into a tech structure (whether it be Stargate, Twilight, or Robo) into 2 more gates. For PvP usually ending up in the Colossi war is most likely. | ||
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xOtit
United States253 Posts
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whistle
United States141 Posts
I won the game, so why do I post it, you ask? 1. I lost the majority of the major engagements. I am not a fan of losing my entire army. 2. I only won because of a base trade into archon toilet, which is an unreliable way to win at best and basically a coinflip. 3. We basically play NR20 on Daybreak and mine out most of the entire map. It's basically an ultra-late game match (yes, past normal late-game) and I don't think I'll get another replay like it for a very long time. I take a fast third and he decides to tech instead of trying to bust me, and the game goes into the late-game without any fights. We are too passive. I go for a void ray/carrier/archon/ht ball with mothership and stalker support, and he goes brood lord/queen/corruptor/infestor. Things I tried to do: - Stay ahead on income/bases. - Harass his tech/expansions. - Upgrade everything. - Add a shitton of production. - Feedback as many infestors/queens as I could before the battles. - Storm clumped air units. - Archon toilet! The main question is what do I do against his composition? There have been some several discussions about late-game PvZ and most people say the ideal composition is air with archon and HT support, but that's against a traditional air zerg, not one that makes so many queens. Maybe I should have used more colossus with rapid stalker reinforcements/high templar support once I realized he was going for more queens and less corruptors/brood lords? I didn't prepare my expansions/main for speedling attacks very well, but thankfully he didn't really feel like doing them. I also didn't focus fire my carriers onto his brood lords (rookie mistake). Other problems I had, or things I'd like tips with: - It's really hard to get templar in range of where I need them to storm when there is random shit everywhere (broodlings, infested terran eggs, fungal growth). Any tips? I may try carrying them in a warp prism PvT style but it really feels like an unnecessary tax on my shitty APM when EMP doesn't exist. - Queens wreck my air units. Storm is pretty bad against them. Feedback doesn't kill them, and transfuse is only part of the trouble. This is the reason I didn't get many many void rays, although I probably got a few too many carriers. | ||
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Ero-Sennin
United States756 Posts
Anyone have any good replays/screen shots of what you'd call an optimal sim city for a Protoss 3rd? My thread got closed because I didn't BS fluff and fill up 2 pages. Didn't think people wanted to be amused by shiny objects, but I guess they do. Well, fuck 'em. Not gonna do that so I'll just ask the question here. Again, does anyone have any good replays/screen shots of what you'd call an optimal sim city for a Protoss 3rd? User was warned for this post | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On May 01 2012 12:59 Ero-Sennin wrote: If you see Zerg going 3 hatch before gas, as Protoss, if you're inclined to take a quick 3rd in response, it is imperative that your sim city is good. Anyone have any good replays/screen shots of what you'd call an optimal sim city for a Protoss 3rd? My thread got closed because I didn't BS fluff and fill up 2 pages. Didn't think people wanted to be amused by shiny objects, but I guess they do. Well, fuck 'em. Not gonna do that so I'll just ask the question here. Again, does anyone have any good replays/screen shots of what you'd call an optimal sim city for a Protoss 3rd? User was warned for this post Honestly it's map dependent. Though Generally there are two types of sim city for 3rd bases: 1.) if you have a single ramp, or an easily wallof-able access to your third (i.e the thirds on entombed valley, or daybreak.), simply wall taht off with gates/pylon(s), and place cannons behind the wallof. 2.) there are too many access points (i.e cloud kingdom), place cannons adjacent to the nexus (preferably on the side that wont disrupt mining) then placing gates to walloff the cannons (so they are much more cost efficient against lings). That's the basics of it for you, I'll get some screencaps later if you really need them, though the above descriptions should be fairly sufficient. Also your thread got closed because honestly it's such as simple question that you're better off posting it in here then making an entire thread for that one question; that's why this thread exists, so you can ask questions like that. | ||
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popados
United States7 Posts
On May 01 2012 04:08 Lafer wrote: I don't know why, but I've gotten into the habit of going high templar in PvZ before going for colossus... I realized very quickly that it wasn't going too well for me, but does anyone know exactly how bad it is? For example, will it cause me to lose a lot more games than I win? The archons don't really do much as a shield or as DPS to roaches... am I better off just teching to colossus? I'm doing a 1 gate expand into robo for immortals, then immediately going for templar tech. Should I just continue to tech towards colossus? I wouldn't immediately switch to templar unless you were 100% sure the zerg is teching straight for mutalisk (hardcore). Forcefield micro is super important against zerg no matter what tech you or they are going. Since you already go straight for a robo try out a 2 base immortal all in to practice your FF micro and learn the importance of putting pressure on the zerg player. I believe you will find your mini death ball of immortal - sentry - stalker to be extremely efficient at dealing with any sort of tech the zerg can thorw at you around the 10:00 minute mark. There are a few versions of the build, but I feel this one is the easiest to master if you are struggling in lower leagues: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325014 You are already opening up the same way, and the build doesn't need to be all in if you don't want it to. You can simply continue making probes, and drop a third behind or during your attack. When executed properly this push will accomplish one or both of these: -Force zerg to make army and not workers -Straight up kill his third From the sound of it you're playing entirely too passive. Try to mix in some aggression. Even if it is early 4 gate +1 zealot pressure. Forcing units over drones is key in this match up. All of this should help you feel more in control of the game's pace early on. | ||
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nt-rAven
Canada405 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 01 2012 14:08 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Honestly it's map dependent. Though Generally there are two types of sim city for 3rd bases: 1.) if you have a single ramp, or an easily wallof-able access to your third (i.e the thirds on entombed valley, or daybreak.), simply wall taht off with gates/pylon(s), and place cannons behind the wallof. 2.) there are too many access points (i.e cloud kingdom), place cannons adjacent to the nexus (preferably on the side that wont disrupt mining) then placing gates to walloff the cannons (so they are much more cost efficient against lings). That's the basics of it for you, I'll get some screencaps later if you really need them, though the above descriptions should be fairly sufficient. Also your thread got closed because honestly it's such as simple question that you're better off posting it in here then making an entire thread for that one question; that's why this thread exists, so you can ask questions like that. FYI, Cloud Kingdom is almost completely wallable. Off a FFE, when you see three bases, you can wall off the ramp closest to your natural (the one with the rocks on it) with your second, third, and fourth gates. Then you can take your third and wall the ramp by the third off with gates 5-7, and as you add more gates after that you can extend the wall around to block the long way around as well. | ||
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DrunkenHomer
66 Posts
Most of the time i see his pylon getting started, but i cant kill it because it is behind the minnerals of my natural, I tried going forge myself but till my first cannon is up his allready built cannons in my main. Should i build a second gate and fight the cannons with probes/zealots? Or should i try to get my stalker out fast ? Would be great if someone can link me to some well defended cannon rushes. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Anyway Daybreak, PvT i like to leave a probe or obs on the way to the third which isn't covered by the xel'naga and try to control that with a zealot or something; 2 observers here really help. PvZ you just gotta simicity the third, which is a bit of a pain actually. | ||
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Davron
United States86 Posts
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Supah
708 Posts
On May 02 2012 00:04 Sated wrote: Not sure if this goes here or not, but I'll probably get the right players looking at it by posting here: How the hell are you supposed to find PvP fun? I'm obviously looking at it with a bad mind-set, or maybe I just need a build that's just super-safe and super-standard to work from: In any case, I hate the damn thing. I have been DT expanding a lot recently, which is cool, but even the fun of using DTs can't prevent this match-up being incredibly boring - resorted to proxy 2gating pretty much every PvP I play (again) TT_TT EDIT: Also, I seem to have a mental block with taking the third base on Daybreak. I've heard it is supposed to be Protoss favoured, but I can't stand playing on that map right now. Everything is so spread out that it feels really dangerous to move out for fear of drops/run-bys etc. Anyone got any tips? I'd rather keep Metalopolis veto'd, but I'd genuinely rather play Metal right now than Daybreak. In PvP there isn't really a "OK I'm going to pressure and expand behind it" type of build (sans any sort of Speed Immortals or Blink Obs play; which are admittedly strong strats to expand behind). You need to make reads, and to be able to expand, and know you'll hold if the opponent just keeps making units. 1 Gate Robo into reactionary play seems to be the most standard and "safe" to expand behind. If your opponent is going Blink, you can expo behind 2 Immortals with the third building; and if he's going Colossus, same thing, except you keep pumping Immortals. Keep in mind, powering is important, even though you don't necessarily have the economy to do it, because if he's going to 1 Base you, you need to be able to reinforce ASAP and in bunches, and the lack of tech/upgrades means 5 gates off 30~ Probes still lasts a fairly long time. Runbys are easy, just keep a Zealot or even a Probe on hold position in your nat. For drops, keep in mind the high gateway count is not only for reinforcing during battles for that "200+ pop protoss army", but also so that you can leave a minimum amount of units at home (usually mid game is 4-5 Stalkers, late game would be HT+cannons) and warp in to clean up anything that does manage to drop. Early thirds (like 7-9~ minute thirds on Daybreak PvZ are pretty holdable; keep your Immortals up, use Gateways to help wall, and don't neglect your attack upgrades. edit: Just watched MVP vs. Naniwa's set [SPOILERS AHEAD] + Show Spoiler + Curious, have there been any recent holds against Proxy/Mass Rax lately? I can't seem to remember any Protoss holding it and going on to win the game.Nearest one I can find was Maru vs Oz in GSL on April 26th, but it was pretty badly executed, and it was late. The build just seems really strong, and not used too often. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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BoBiNoU
France181 Posts
I dont know if it is intended to work this way but apparently you can still get gas stealed EVEN with a probe on hold position on it ... | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
On May 03 2012 01:18 Sated wrote: I don't have a problem with PvP because of my build-orders. I can execute a few build-orders well enough to hold 4gate rushes (most of the time) and with macro "good enough" for my league: The problem is that I don't find any of the builds fun to play, nor do I find the end-game of the match-up fun in the slightest ("Oh, you have one more Colossus, I guess you win u_u"). I was wondering if this might be because of some sort of mind-set problem I have with the match-up, so I was wondering what other people think going into PvP games to try and get some insight. I didn't really mean "run-by" in that sense, I don't have much problem with Zerglings. It's more that the size of the map makes it hard to defend multiple bases against an army running/stimming in and sniping it. Protoss doesn't really have this option because of how slow our units generally are, so it can be quite frustrating. It's okay, though, I've started leaving lone Zealots on hold-position around maps for vision instead of trying to be "pro" about positional sense - it's working pretty well - my problem now is that there is so much air-space on that map that it's really hard to use Observers to spot common flight-paths... Blink + Obs + Phoenix + DT if you're looking for a fun build. Colossus are the end game, you can't get around that. It's like TvT with no tanks (even MMM has a handful of tanks throughout the game); it's like Terran trying to play Bio straight up and thinking you "should" be able to win; it's like ZvZ with no Fungal. Tech is there for a reason. However, you can delay such tech with a lot of aggression, or you can hit with timing attacks to keep Colossus low; though that tends to be a lot more decisive for one player or another. If your games are just going, early pressure, expo, Colossus, end game, be more aggressive. On 3 bases, you should be hovering between your 2nd and your 3rd, with hopefully an Obs/Probe on the attack path to the third, with a few Stalkers in your base. Warpins, a Pylon far back enough for reinforcement, but would cause an overcommit by the Terran to try to snipe, and just quick reaction will help with that. How often does your third base actually get sniped? How far away are your units? What are you looking at when that happens? How quickly do you react? Big doom drops will almost always mean a base trade if you're in the middle of the map, but while you're establishing your third, you should always be in a position to defend it, or force Terran to stay at home. | ||
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