EPTCan't make up my mind on this one!
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 215
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Westy
England808 Posts
Can't make up my mind on this one! | ||
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 26 2012 08:43 wongisgreat wrote: what are good builds to do against a 1 rax no gas expand that put me on equal economic footing? I've been doing gate -> nexus -> core, but what other alternatives are there? I do this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319339 You can do gate -> nexus -> core, but honestly, speeding up your nexus by 20 seconds by delaying your isn't nearly as important as having a solid, fleshed out gameplan that takes advantage of the passiveness of gasless 1-rax FE. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 27 2012 04:24 Westy wrote: Could someone better than me (I am 800 point masters) tell me, in PvZ, is it worth cannoning the third? A couple of times I have an opportunity to cannon the third just as it finishes, so they lose the hatch. But usually a zerg just slams down another hatch somewhere else. And because I have invested usually at least 350 into the cannons/pylons, they can drone extra hard as they know any attack will be delayed. Can't make up my mind on this one! Yes, because you limit his larva count and therefore his drone rate, you prevent the creep spread from being established there, and make him mine out his main and natural sooner because his income is less spread out. Most importantly, it limits zerg responses: it's much harder to do a massive roach flood that overwhelms the toss if zerg doesn't have the third up early. You also delay zerg's gas income off 6 geysers that they love to do. | ||
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Rasera
Canada96 Posts
On March 25 2012 23:01 NexUmbra wrote: Hi can anyone tell me how I lost this game, http://uppit.com/8usm3akkn6ug/Metalopolis_(4).SC2Replay As far as I can see I blocked his hatch for ages, how can he have so many units at this time while still being on one base -_- Watched your replay; I'm high gold so take what you can from it. I'm just gonna start from the top: 1:45 - Your 13 gateway was in a poor position; against zerg you want to create a wall-off with your gateway, cybercore and a zealot to block the ramp, like this: Wall off PvZ In the image, the zealot is on hold position, meaning it will not move away from that choke to engage, and makes it so zerg units cannot run into your base without killing the buildings or the zealot first. 2:55 - Your pylon block was good, but the gateway there is the wrong choice for a building. You had 270 minerals at that point, and your 1st gate had just finished. It would've been more beneficial to start your cybercore back at base than build that gate, and building, then cancelling another pylon repeatedly would've been a more economical choice. This early in the game, every action you do has a critical effect, and unless you had a way to save that gate, it wasn't a particularly good choice to put it there in your opponent's natural. In this particular case, you either had to build both gates and do a proxy zealot rush, or build both gates at home. You can't sit on the fence for this choice. You also never get rid of your opponent's scouting drone, so he can see everything you are doing. You also never got a good scout of what your opponent was doing; you only scouted where he was. 4:25 - The zealot to defend the gateway is a good idea, but it's wide open. As you see shortly after (4:40), the 6 zerglings get an easy surround and kill it. Use terrain and buildings to your advantage so they can't get a surround. Not that it meant much in this particular case, since he built early roaches to take out your gate. A good scout of his base would've shown the roach warren, and you could've pulled back and continued building up back at base. You also build very mineral expensive units off of 2 gate, which delayed your nexus substantially. Especially since you got such a long block against the zerg, you should've thrown that nexus down as soon as possible and take to the advantage even more. OR You could've built 2 more gates back at home early, and use 3 gates to expand safely with a handful of sentries. Based on the build, it appears you were strictly waiting for 30 supply to drop your nexus in a 1 gate FE. In reality, with perfect probe production, and 4 units worth of production, at 30 supply you will have an excess of about 400 minerals, and you drop your nexus then. After building your first sentry (or 2nd, if a sentry is in your first 3 units), regardless of your supply, you should get a nexus. This applies strictly to 1 gate FE. You also drop your next 2 gates far too late, you usually drop them directly after dropping a nexus in a 1 gate expand so they can finish around the same time warpgate does. 6:20 - You need to make sure that proxy pylons do not have to contribute to supply, because if they get destroyed, you hit a supply block, which is what happens shortly after it is killed (6:50). 7 minute push - your stalkers were caught ahead of the rest of your group and you got burned on it. More importantly was that you had 1 sentry and you were floating 200 gas. You need 1 for defense; for offense you need around 3. Forcefields make or break a protoss at all times in a game, and not having enough spells for a lot of trouble. You need around 6 forcefields for an early push to be effective, you had 2 available. 8:30 (zerg counter attack) - had those gates been down sooner and finishing on time with warpgate, you would've had an extra 4 - 5 units to use against that push. With some good forcefields from 2 - 3 sentries, and the extra range stalkers have over roaches, you would've been able to hold that push easily, and would've been ahead of the zerg player. 8:30 - you transform one of your 2 gates, but not the other. You transform the 2nd one 30 seconds later, but that costs you one warp-in on that gateway. 9:30 - sentries are good for forcefield, not for their dps. On this warp-in, 3 stalkers, a zealot and a sentry would've benefitted you more than 5 sentries. After that, the zerg sees he has the army advantage as his initial push has killed your units + 2 extra warp-ins. He starts using all of his larva for producing roaches and overlords, and just overruns you. Just as a side note, a zerg will have enough resources to use all of their larva on roaches, from just 2 bases. Each base will also contribute 7 larva every 45 seconds (if the zerg player is good at injects), meaning he can make 8 or so roaches every minute and just pushing you until you die (which they do) Maybe a bit more elaborate than you were expecting, but I was just picking at what I observed. Some good things, so it doesn't seem like I'm completely thrashing you: 8 minute mark - the 2 gates you build just as your 2nd is finishing is at a great time. When they finish, you should be getting enough extra income from your 2nd base to use them effectively. You also forced units early out of him, which is helpful since they aren't specifically droning. It means you stayed even with his drone count up until the 7 minute mark. Making immortals against roaches is a good choice, but it was too little too late. Suggestion for improving upon it: When you decide to pick a build, just hammer out all the details of it: making probes, keeping away from supply blocks, and using all your gates on time, every time, as well as making the buildings in the right places. It's the old adage of 'probes, pylons, units' but it will apply. Improving this will help you dramatically. Good luck and have fun! | ||
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Rasera
Canada96 Posts
On March 26 2012 00:33 Greippi wrote: Hello! Looking for advice about specific PvZ game, opponent going fast 3/3 ling infestor into ultra. Just wondering if i lost because of stupid mistakes or unit composition. Major points i spotted myself: 1) 13:00, Went in to zergs third really blindly and threw away my units 2) 16:00, Lost third, i think the game was decided here, if i would have those inital push units i would have held 3) 21:00, Big fight, i think it went okayish 4) 22:30, Stupid push again Got rolled after that I think my biggest problem is that i try to be too aggressive sometimes, think that game would have gone much differently if i would have just defended my expansions, considering that zerg almost had all bases he can manage to get. Second problem is that i was 2/0/2 when zerg was 3/3, hard to get upgrades when you feel pressured that hard. Unit composition wasnt that bad in my opinion until broodlords came : ) If someone has any ideas i would like to hear them http://drop.sc/141707 Thanks! Watched the provided replay; I think the first push would've been much more effective with earlier scouting (I'm talking from experience because I lack the same thing). If you had scouted at around the 9:45 mark, you would've seen that he had no 3rd, and that his unit count was 6 roaches and a handful of lings. A push at the 10 minute mark in this game might have outright won it, but you would've had a huge advantage at the very least, as you would've cleaned up the 3rd easily. You underestimate just how well your push at 21:00 actually did; you killed off the zerg player's entire army, and in exchange, lost 13 zealots and 1 sentry. your 22:30 push was a good position, but was lacking forcefields. The immortals taking all of the banelings was really nice to watch, intentional or not. In the end, a colossi switch after the 21 minute mark would've been most beneficial as your zealots and immortals tanked the ultralisk's very well. The high templars got caught by the ultralisks in the last fight, which really hurt. I don't know ... the colossi switch would've helped the most, but as much as you got 'rolled' over, slightly different positioning and the fight would've gone your way. That's my idea at least Such is SC2 sometimes. | ||
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TheLaddergoat
United Kingdom34 Posts
Also I'm finding more and more that zergs are doing the infestor, spine, corruptor stephano thing, was wondering if anyone had made any headway in killing that composition? On a side note does anyone have any of ST Parting's PvT builds written down? Would save me a lot of time if there was already one out there  | ||
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LeakyBucket
Canada76 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
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Severus_
759 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 28 2012 04:58 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Is an Archon toilet the only viable way of dealing with Broodlord Infestor Straight up in a fight, it's probably one of the best ways. You can also do it with high templar and void rays, using feedback on the infestors and then taking out the air with the void rays, but that requires excellent control, good positioning, and a mistake from zerg, so it's very hard. If you are VERY quick you can use a speed warp prism to get high templar at the infestors and feedback them rapidly, but it's extremely difficult. If zerg splits their air and uses the infestors properly they can negate an archon toilet so it's not a good way to fight it head on either, as you're relying on zerg messing up. Once broodlord infestor is out, you want to use gateway units to pressure all over the place. Blink stalkers, warp prisms, DT's, zealot warp ins, etc. Don't engage head on until you have a bunch of air. Carriers can work well if you can buy enough time to get them out, but you need air upgrades too. You need colossi too to deal with the broodlings. It's very very difficult, there is no easy answer. It's going to depend a lot on the position you are in right as broodlord infestor comes into play. | ||
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_NIx_
United States49 Posts
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CommanchyWattkins
Canada117 Posts
Im sure higher leagues do it too. By watching Grubby and White-ra's stream, they both get twilight then robo quite often. I saw Grubby pwn this Gm with a blink stalker opener. 3 stalker rush then into blink + observer and transition into collosus. Grubby's oponent got destroyed because Grubby would just blink up into mineral line and blink out before army arrives! | ||
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SFGIANTS91
United States51 Posts
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imalama
France7 Posts
I checked in the unit tester and if 10 void rays can charge on a nexus they seem to beat 20 blink stalkers easily. So I have two questions: is there a cost effective counter to a lot of void rays? (apart from not letting someone get a lot of void rays) if void rays are so good in PvP, why dont we see void ray wars instead of colossus wars? | ||
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SkyBlaze
Canada191 Posts
On March 29 2012 14:13 imalama wrote: I played a PvP against someone who went zealot immortal and void rays. I let him get a lot of void rays and learned that they are very hard to stop in large numbers. I checked in the unit tester and if 10 void rays can charge on a nexus they seem to beat 20 blink stalkers easily. So I have two questions: is there a cost effective counter to a lot of void rays? (apart from not letting someone get a lot of void rays) if void rays are so good in PvP, why dont we see void ray wars instead of colossus wars? it's hard to get a lot of void rays unnoticed. if they are not charged and not ready for a attack, they die really fast. while going Colossus you have more options plus observers. Making a Robo is a lot more safe than Stargate, is where the main point starts. And I forgot to mention Blink Stalkers and DTs are a bit funky to deal with. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On March 29 2012 14:13 imalama wrote: I played a PvP against someone who went zealot immortal and void rays. I let him get a lot of void rays and learned that they are very hard to stop in large numbers. I checked in the unit tester and if 10 void rays can charge on a nexus they seem to beat 20 blink stalkers easily. So I have two questions: is there a cost effective counter to a lot of void rays? (apart from not letting someone get a lot of void rays) if void rays are so good in PvP, why dont we see void ray wars instead of colossus wars? The easiest counter is phoenix, which are cost effective in equal cost and build much faster; this is the main reason no one ever masses voidrays in PvP. The second option is a timing push, which is common in a 2 robo colossi vs 1 robo colossi + 2 stargate voidray transition. I believe an example of that can be found from MLG Arena, socke vs ddoro. The third option is archons and storm supported by stalkers, but I very very rarely find myself in a position where I'd prefer this option over the other 2. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
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Sockpuppet
119 Posts
Also if anyone has any tips for the opening that would be greatly appreciated also, i am not having any specific problems (so no replay is needed) i just would like general knowledge on the opening itself. Edit: Just a little typo | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On March 29 2012 17:59 Protossking wrote: how do you deal with a 6pool on tal'darim into mutalisk with mass spines for defence? I feel I should just go blind stargate into phoenix whenever someone 6pools me on that map now, since it's so common to transition into mutalisk and I can probably hold a second/third with good simcity and lifts. I really don't think blink/high templar is viable against mass muta, eventually the numbers just get too big to handle, they force a base race and you lose to 50 spines. Check out Genius vs Nestea from the last GSL on talderim for a good example of how to deal with it. | ||
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