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On March 21 2012 20:27 itsNifty wrote:
Im high master zerg and switching Protoss, so Ive been trying to make my own 7 gate Blink build on 4 gas. moving out with 4 sentries and a couple of stalkers at 8:50 +2 att.
I know that when I defend a build like that I make roach ling at 8:30 non stop. My question, is this an ideal time to move out 8:50? Cus when I do this build it seems weaker, than when I play zerg lol.
I do this exact same build a lot. Typically I move out much later. I usually get some immortals mixed in if I see a lot of roaches. I tend to move out between 10 and 12 min. This means that my army is already quite large by the time I move out.
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The replay you uploaded is of a PvP on ST!
If you suspect an all-in is coming, the first step to defending any cheese is to STOP PROBING! 
You should have 2 gas after FFE and build the stargate immediately after the cyb is finished, and immediately chronoboost 1st void ray. You will have it out in time. Place 2-3 cannons in case he tries to run by, block off the ramp, and chrono some sentries. You only need pheonix after you go attack ( lifting queens). Voidrays alone will not do very much damage to a zerg base!
Normally zergs will not all-in you, only when playing some serious meta game tactics. Exceptions: if you pylon block their natural many panick and then all-in. They might also try it on maps like Meta, and ST if you FFE, since the surface area is larger there. So just watch out for those cases.
If you simcity properly there is no way he will be able to over run you with only zerglings, unless you miss force fields.
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Netherlands553 Posts
Nevermind what I said earlier, I have now been demoted to playing against Golds instead and losing to every single player I meet-_-
I'm tempted to just make my own thread about this, but honestly I don't even know what the issue is anymore. This isn't a "I lose to this, what can I do?" issue anymore, it's an "my money is low, I have tech and upgrades, and I lose to everything".
I lose to 2rax, I lose to 4base Mech/bio (wtf?) I lose to muta switches, I lose to mass Roach, I lose to 4gates.
Example: Just played this one.. I see Terran going 2rax, respond by chronoing some units and getting additional gates before Robo. Terran stims in, kills most of my army, then kills most of my probes at nat.
Drops later in game, snipes Robo before I can even get my units from my nat over there. Proceeds to have 10 Vikings to counter my all-in, game over.
What is the fundamental thing I'm doing wrong?
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On March 23 2012 00:40 DarQraven wrote:Nevermind what I said earlier, I have now been degraded to playing against Golds instead and losing to every single player I meet-_- I'm tempted to just make my own thread about this, but honestly I don't even know what the issue is anymore. This isn't a "I lose to this, what can I do?" issue anymore, it's an "my money is low, I have tech and upgrades, and I lose to everything". I lose to 2rax, I lose to 4base Mech/bio (wtf?) I lose to muta switches, I lose to mass Roach, I lose to 4gates. Example: Just played this one.. I see Terran going 2rax, respond by chronoing some units and getting additional gates before Robo. Terran stims in, kills most of my army, then kills most of my probes at nat. Drops later in game, snipes Robo before I can even get my units from my nat over there. Proceeds to have 10 Vikings to counter my all-in, game over. What is the fundamental thing I'm doing wrong?
I'm a high master Terran player currently offracing as Protoss (diamond aiming for master) so take this with caution:
Your build is okay - you read the 1 gate FE guide but it needs refinement in order to have a perfect flow. The main issue in the replay was your unit composition which is guide-conform but in my opinion horrible. I take an early gas for addition sentries (4) and invest the minerals in zealots (4-6) and max. 2 stalkers. Why build stalkers if you don't use them for base-to-base kiting... so useless? You need to position a probe or stalker outside of his base so that you can see when he moves out. Pull probes if you have problems.
If you see a 2 rax (which he btw executed horribly wrong) you either 3 gate expand if you are not sure that you are capable of defending it. But the best option here is to 1 gate FE.
1. Use FFs
2. Know when the push comes
3. Know the enemy unit composition so that you can think about your composition
Drop: Build spotting pylons, place probe/observer/pylon/any other unit in flight path and have at least 4 stalkers in your main to defend the push
-Don't queue up your units, it's super bad.
-If he has vikings after an engagement you stop building colossus and do the templar tech path.
-You had the templar archive but didn't do anything with it until it was too late.
-What timing push did you try to achieve? Why not just poke and get back if you aren't sure to win?
-Why engage on his conditions?
-Why focus on stalker/colossus after you lost your timing push? Why?
The third main engagement was utterly horrible, you probably just a-clicked... not that it mattered. You failed two times miserably and should have died much much earlier. It is not enough to learn builds you need to understand what to do and why
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First off, you should take a break. With your current state you wont be able to play normally! Usually I stop playing after 5 consecutive losses, and take a breather.
Second, I watched the replay. The reasons for your loss are several small issues that added up and the battle at his base, which was a mistake. I'll dissect it for you to see:
Early game- you scouted the 2rax, your response was good, though he went a rather silly build and a very late expansion, which put you way ahead in economy. However, your lack of map awareness made him able to come back into the game slightly. You need to know when he is moving out so you can churn out units from your gateways. Have a pylon near your expansion so reinforcements can come sooner (ur pylon was so far away). Also you should chronoboost ur gateways when he attacks so you can get warp ins faster.
When using probes for defense you should use it WITH your army, not after your army dies.
Mid game- again your lack of map awareness brings him back into the game. You need to have observers placed in possible routes for drops (2-3 observers is good, 1 infront of his base, 1 at ur main, 1 at ur third).
When you engaged him at his base, after you lost ur colossus u should've pulled back, as you had no proxy pylons to warp in reinforcements. You lost your army with no real need.
Late game-
Lack of upgrades, at the end he was 2-2 and you were 2-0. As protoss you should NEVER be behind upgrades, but ahead (chronoboosts)
You should transition into templar/archon once you've forced vikings from him as I said in previous posts!
All in all, your macro is good, imo about a diamond/low master level.
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I wonder what the right counter in PvP to a 1 base zealot voidray all in is.
If you open blink stalkers this might be easier but what shall i do if i open robo?
You need to build stalker to fight the zealots but zealots crush the stalkers...
Phoenix would be a good counter but it takes too long to get them out.
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Gen an observer and then go blink.. how can he go up your ramp anyway with his zealots?
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MU: PvP. low master. I wounder, if you scout that your opponent is doing a phoenix pressure, how should you react and what should you build in midd game, depending on if he just produced 6-8 or just 4 phoenixes?
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On March 23 2012 07:16 NoreN wrote:
MU: PvP. low master. I wounder, if you scout that your opponent is doing a phoenix pressure, how should you react and what should you build in midd game, depending on if he just produced 6-8 or just 4 phoenixes?
Most players won't throw their phoenix away to cannons, so expanding early and throwing up 2 - 3 cannons per base will keep you harass free. Phoenix aren't all that great against colossi, and on two base, you can warp-in more stalkers than they can pick up. With blink upgrade, you can take out the phoenixes easily, and still have the ability to harass with your stalkers.
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On March 23 2012 05:25 OrbitalPlane wrote:
I wonder what the right counter in PvP to a 1 base zealot voidray all in is.
If you open blink stalkers this might be easier but what shall i do if i open robo?
You need to build stalker to fight the zealots but zealots crush the stalkers...
Phoenix would be a good counter but it takes too long to get them out.
I'd imagine using the ramp to hold zealots off with forcefields, while using stalkers to pick off the void rays? Immortals don't do as well against zealots as two stalkers would, especially with them having air units. Even if it meant the robo sat idle for awhile... the more stalkers you could get, the better.
Phoenix would work as well, but star gate is more of a pre-meditated choice than reactionary, as you'd always be behind on units. if you started with star gate, you could keep up, but it's likely better to go with more stalkers.
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Anyone have any experience with a 3 rax pure Marauder all in with Conc shell at 8 minutes? Reaper attack killed my gas drones before being killed by Stalkers and I took my natural off a 2 gate expand. I put down one more gate and my robo (and took second gas) after expo but didn't have enough army to fight off the push at 8 min (robo was too late for Immortal support). My army was largely Zealot/Sentry but conc shell took its toll and they took too many hits before engaging. Map was Korhal though, and that natural is a little hard to defend IMO (a bit like Metalopolis).
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On March 23 2012 16:24 aZealot wrote:
Anyone have any experience with a 3 rax pure Marauder all in with Conc shell at 8 minutes? Reaper attack killed my gas drones before being killed by Stalkers and I took my natural off a 2 gate expand. I put down one more gate and my robo (and took second gas) after expo but didn't have enough army to fight off the push at 8 min (robo was too late for Immortal support). My army was largely Zealot/Sentry but conc shell took its toll and they took too many hits before engaging. Map was Korhal though, and that natural is a little hard to defend IMO (a bit like Metalopolis).
Replay would really help.
The gas timings are extremely important (gas before rax) to identify the build. After the reaper he can either FE (common), mass reaper (extremely uncommon), go marauder heavy (uncommon), 1-1-1(common), double starport (uncommon). Furthermore it is important if he proxied the rax which requires scouting - otherwise he is in a really good position.
I would always go 1 gate FE since I'm confidend in my micro. But you don't have to expand if he doesn't and you don't know what is going on. 2 gate FE is bad you should always 1 gate > robo > scout > gate > gate even if it requires to cut probes. You need to know what is going on to decide what to do.
Your unit composition is okay but it depends on how you placed the forcefields (replay). If you knew what was coming, I'd have adviced to chrono immortals and rely on FFs or mass phoenix (if you are diamond+). But replay, please.
I have a question: Are there any good featured Protoss streamers currently? I watched HwangSin but he is pretty bad. Does Puzzle or Genius stream?
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What are some good midgame transitions / builds in PvT after a 1gate expand?
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On March 23 2012 22:04 GeorgeTheGorge wrote:
What are some good midgame transitions / builds in PvT after a 1gate expand?
6gate, 3gate robo into colossus, 3gate robo into double forge are the most standard. Also 5-6 gateway preassure into fast 3rd.
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Northern Ireland26943 Posts
I've sort of got the hang of decent macro-based builds and play a ton of long games. Looking to mix it up a bit and have a few BoX builds that I can use in tournaments. Any cool all-in builds that you guys would recommend? Ideally looking for all-ins of the 2 base variety, PvT especially.
I saw this sick 3 immortal bust that Puzzle used against MMA last GSL that seemed very potent for example, stuff like that.
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On March 23 2012 19:36 VoO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 16:24 aZealot wrote:
Anyone have any experience with a 3 rax pure Marauder all in with Conc shell at 8 minutes? Reaper attack killed my gas drones before being killed by Stalkers and I took my natural off a 2 gate expand. I put down one more gate and my robo (and took second gas) after expo but didn't have enough army to fight off the push at 8 min (robo was too late for Immortal support). My army was largely Zealot/Sentry but conc shell took its toll and they took too many hits before engaging. Map was Korhal though, and that natural is a little hard to defend IMO (a bit like Metalopolis). Replay would really help. The gas timings are extremely important (gas before rax) to identify the build. After the reaper he can either FE (common), mass reaper (extremely uncommon), go marauder heavy (uncommon), 1-1-1(common), double starport (uncommon). Furthermore it is important if he proxied the rax which requires scouting - otherwise he is in a really good position. I would always go 1 gate FE since I'm confidend in my micro. But you don't have to expand if he doesn't and you don't know what is going on. 2 gate FE is bad you should always 1 gate > robo > scout > gate > gate even if it requires to cut probes. You need to know what is going on to decide what to do. Your unit composition is okay but it depends on how you placed the forcefields (replay). If you knew what was coming, I'd have adviced to chrono immortals and rely on FFs or mass phoenix (if you are diamond+). But replay, please.
Thanks. Thought about it earlier this morning and realised my scouting was off - initial poke was derailed by the reaper. I thought a standard 2 rax (tech-lab first) was incoming (I saw gas with my initial probe scout btw but didn't pick up on the timing) and prepared for that. My follow up probe scout (when nothing had happened by ~6.00) was picked off by 2 Marauders and didn't see all that much. I think if I had been more active I may have surmised what was coming in which case I should have either 2 gate - expo - robo - gate or (ideally) 2 gate - robo - expo - gate. One, ideally 2 Immortals, a pull of some probes, and I would have held that push and had the game sewn up a few minutes later. I don't like the 1 Gate FE - it leaves me feeling unsafe, I prefer the 2 Gate. I'm going to stick with it until I am more confident with my micro and get better with my scouting.
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On March 23 2012 00:03 Fossa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 20:27 itsNifty wrote:
Im high master zerg and switching Protoss, so Ive been trying to make my own 7 gate Blink build on 4 gas. moving out with 4 sentries and a couple of stalkers at 8:50 +2 att.
I know that when I defend a build like that I make roach ling at 8:30 non stop. My question, is this an ideal time to move out 8:50? Cus when I do this build it seems weaker, than when I play zerg lol.
I do this exact same build a lot. Typically I move out much later. I usually get some immortals mixed in if I see a lot of roaches. I tend to move out between 10 and 12 min. This means that my army is already quite large by the time I move out.
I don't care for this. 7 gate blink, if you are constantly using all your warp ins is pretty all in. You want to hit as early as you can to avoid letting the zerg set up his economy or tech. If he gets infestors, you are pretty screwed unless you have already taken out a significant portion of his army. Waiting to add immortals means infestors or hydras can crush you. Waiting until the 12 minute mark only really makes sense if you are taking a third base and keeping up constant scouting to know that he is investing heavily into roaches.
8:50 isn't an unreasonable time as that is still early enough to be before a lot of lair tech upgrades kick in. I think the sentry investment should probably be map specific. 4 sentries can give you a nice positional advantage if there are some good chokes to exploit, however you are going to be attacking into him, so you don't want to ff and stay back as he can just wait for more production. 4 sentries is 400 gas is 8 stalkers or ~1 minute of time in mining (I'm not certain on this timing but I think its about a hundred gas per minute per geyser). You should have a pretty specific tactic where ff is going to be important to make that worth it. I.E. I probably would not get the sentries on a map like TDA but might like them on other maps like Antiga.
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On March 23 2012 07:16 NoreN wrote:
MU: PvP. low master. I wounder, if you scout that your opponent is doing a phoenix pressure, how should you react and what should you build in midd game, depending on if he just produced 6-8 or just 4 phoenixes?
depending on how you opened..........if you went robo and you discover he has gone phoenix you obviously need to get stalkers with blink BUT do NOT overmake stalkers and DONT make immortals. If the first thing you did was make an immortal with your robo and he has already decided to all in you, gl defending the push, the phoenix will just negate the immortal and you just lost 4 supply of army in the engagement. You still need zealots and sentries to deal with any kind of phoenix+gateway aggression. Stargate openings often go into robo openings and they will make immortals to deal with your stalkers should you engage. So if you make too many stalkers then he can just walk up into your natural or main with an army that will auto win against your stalker heavy army. You need zealots and sentries to hold your ramp. If he stays on 4 phoenix then you wont need many stalkers to deter them. If he is massing phoenix then you will need more.
If you opened blink, then just keep your stalkers in your mineral line and expand. If he tries to phoenix+gateway pressure/all in you probably need to let go of your natural to be able to hold. If he goes phoenix into robo play, dont overmake stalkers, just like how i explained above.
Now, you could have done something way riskier, such as opening 1 gate expand, this opening is so incredibly strong vs phoenix play. He wont have enough gateway units to pressure you for a long time, so you can easily get a good economy going into 5 or 6 gates by the time he has a threatening army.
Mid game vs phoenix opening should be like any other mid game, you will eventually need colossus and lots of them =) Phoenix lose their value the longer the game is, when 200 vs 200 clash 4-8 phoenix is pretty useless army supply at that point.
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How should one micro a 1 zealot 1 stalker vs a 1 zealot 1 stalker fight? I lost a PvP today because I realized I actually had no idea what to do. Right click the stalker with the zealot and shoot the stalker with your stalker?
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watching oz versus parting.....is mineral intake from the mineral probes from 16-24 so bad that it's more cost effective for the extra 8 to long distance mine? surely that can't be right can it?
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I think there was a thread talking about this a while ago, IIRC the conclusion was that it was more effective to long distance mine once you became considerably over-saturated on your main patch(es). I'm not 100% sure though.
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EPT
