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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On January 08 2012 03:35 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 22:29 ZeromuS wrote:On January 07 2012 21:37 Tobias wrote:On January 07 2012 19:23 Drowsy wrote:
What's the proper response to 2 base lair + spine crawlers in PVZ when you FFE and open with something like 4 warpgate zealot pressure? This is an obvious tell he's going to go muta off 2 base. Obviously you just back your zealots and voids if he's got lots of crawlers and no third, but what's the best way to follow up? Twilight Council+Robo and do a timing attack with blink+immortal and +2 weapons? It seems like taking a third is really just never ever works here, which makes sense considering you're technically ahead unless you lose a lot to mutalisks. There's no point in taking a third if the zerg is staying on two bases. Get your blink, upgrades and your templar archives up, leave a few HTs and stalkers at each base to defend muta harass and roll him over. You may want to cannon up before leaving. To be fair, if you can take the third, at least try to. Its outlined in rsvp's guide found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788The reason being that a first small round of mutas probably can't kill the nexus and you need a lot of gas to defend mutalisk harass. They already spent a lot of money on a spine wall and thats going to limit how many lings they can send at you to kill your third. In terms of money, larva and overall economy. They can either rebuild the drones and have less larva for counters, or they can make zerglings and fall further behind in economy. Also, the point to taking the third is that it pressures the Zerg. Either into killing you or expanding himself. Since Muta/Ling is not very good in straight up engagements they need to invest a lot into killing you and if you hold you will likely win. If they try to double expand then you have time to get storm up which can really help to deal with mutalisks. Not sure, but isn't kcdc talking about a zerg doing a "proper" 3-base muta play? Of course there's nothing wrong with taking a third if you can do it safely, but it's really not necessary.
To make it short, if the zerg is making spines on two bases, he's making muta. If you wait too long to take your third, you won't be able to while the zerg will double expand. So take your third now because he won't be able to do much damage with his first mutas.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
Hey all,
currently i play Protoss (silver), as i want to get better with this race.
For PvT, i do the MC 1 gate expand build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136). But i find myself in trouble even if i hold early MMM attacks.
The reason for this is that i don't know when to attack after this. I need some checkpoints that make sense. I macro better than my opponent mostly, but this advantage nullifies as both max out.
So i would like to ask - what is a good time to attack? When 2 collossi are out -> take third & pressure? Or rather go for third + upgrades + twilight upgrades first?
Note that i would like ANY checkpoint to oppose/deny the terran's third, as in Silver league my macro is most of the time superior than the opponents, so i would like to have one timing i can vary later if things get more close.
Thanks for help!
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On January 09 2012 17:28 kusto wrote:
Hey all,
currently i play Protoss (silver), as i want to get better with this race.
For PvT, i do the MC 1 gate expand build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136). But i find myself in trouble even if i hold early MMM attacks.
The reason for this is that i don't know when to attack after this. I need some checkpoints that make sense. I macro better than my opponent mostly, but this advantage nullifies as both max out.
So i would like to ask - what is a good time to attack? When 2 collossi are out -> take third & pressure? Or rather go for third + upgrades + twilight upgrades first?
Note that i would like ANY checkpoint to oppose/deny the terran's third, as in Silver league my macro is most of the time superior than the opponents, so i would like to have one timing i can vary later if things get more close.
Thanks for help!
uploading a replay may help. but yes just simple things like, attack when you get range collosi, or attack when you get 1-1 upgrades etc.
i would suggest colossi simpler for silver level. if you can just keep making probes, are doing that economic build, add enough gateways to keep money low, a 2 base attack with 3 range collosi will outright kill most terrans at that level.
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Deathball -- can you guys help me understand the proper times to pursue a "Death Ball"? It doesn't make sense when people pursuet he Protoss death ball because aren't you supposed to be battling early, mid, and late game and not just sitting around waiting for a 200/200 ball?
Do people play & fight naturally as the game goes on and end up at 200/200 at some point, or are you literally supposed to turtle, expand, defend, and 200/200? Is it situational, such as PvZ strategy? Or is it to be done if you are at an economic disadvantage and want to maximize your odds---- I say this, because I ran into a situatino where I realize a death ball could have helped:
I was running behind in macro a bit PvZ--- Z had more bases than me, and was ahead in battle. However, I was in the protection of my base & defenses and was able to expand and defend safely. I decided to push out, but Z was maxed. I lost. If I waited until 200/200, perhaps I would have done better.
Thoughts?
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On January 09 2012 18:35 MooSlapper wrote:
Deathball -- can you guys help me understand the proper times to pursue a "Death Ball"? It doesn't make sense when people pursuet he Protoss death ball because aren't you supposed to be battling early, mid, and late game and not just sitting around waiting for a 200/200 ball?
Do people play & fight naturally as the game goes on and end up at 200/200 at some point, or are you literally supposed to turtle, expand, defend, and 200/200? Is it situational, such as PvZ strategy? Or is it to be done if you are at an economic disadvantage and want to maximize your odds---- I say this, because I ran into a situatino where I realize a death ball could have helped:
I was running behind in macro a bit PvZ--- Z had more bases than me, and was ahead in battle. However, I was in the protection of my base & defenses and was able to expand and defend safely. I decided to push out, but Z was maxed. I lost. If I waited until 200/200, perhaps I would have done better.
Thoughts?
Protoss units cost alot more than zerg units and you need gas intensive army to fight massive and cheap zerg army. That's why you can't really attack before 15 min mark unless zerg player did something terribly wrong.
You need to use your range/forcefield/wall advantage before you can match the zerg army, that's why it is correct to turtle and attack after you're maxed or near 200/200 (or when you have essential tech to counter current zerg army).
Every time you move out with your army before you're below ~150 supply, you risk getting flanked by 50 roaches and 50 lings and losing the game in 10 seconds.
You can be agressive with harass, stargate, warp prisms, DT's etc. but it isn't going to end the game. It's ment to just slow the zerg down so you can safely get your army of choice.
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PvT. I'm looking for some hints on how to deal with Terran gasless expand. My preferred build in PvT is a 2 or 3 gate robo (gate, robo, gate, [gate]). As long as Terran takes gas I feel pretty confident and can react to most things that may come. However if I scout no gas I'm not so sure what to do. I don't really want to rely on 1 base all-in (immortals or 4 gate warp prism), but if I just play standard and drop my expo around 6 minutes mark, I feel like I'm getting behind.
Given I'd like to stick to fast robo opening what is the best thing to do if I scout no gas?
- abandon build and drop nexus asap (cut probes? follow-up?)
- cut units and fast tech to colossus?
- double forge?
- double expand?
I'd appreciate master/gm players input. Thanks in advance.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 09 2012 20:55 habermas wrote:
PvT. I'm looking for some hints on how to deal with Terran gasless expand. My preferred build in PvT is a 2 or 3 gate robo (gate, robo, gate, [gate]). As long as Terran takes gas I feel pretty confident and can react to most things that may come. However if I scout no gas I'm not so sure what to do. I don't really want to rely on 1 base all-in (immortals or 4 gate warp prism), but if I just play standard and drop my expo around 6 minutes mark, I feel like I'm getting behind.
Given I'd like to stick to fast robo opening what is the best thing to do if I scout no gas?
- abandon build and drop nexus asap (cut probes? follow-up?)
- cut units and fast tech to colossus?
- double forge?
- double expand?
I'd appreciate master/gm players input. Thanks in advance.
Going 2-3 gate robo already puts you slightly behind versus 1 rax gas expand. Even going a standard 1 gate expand puts you behind gasless expand. Going 2-3 gate robo puts you very behind versus gasless expand. Thus, I highly recommend you do a different build versus gasless expand. The standard responses versus a gasless expand are either a gateway no core expand or a greedy variation of a gateway/core expand.
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On January 09 2012 20:55 habermas wrote:
PvT. I'm looking for some hints on how to deal with Terran gasless expand. My preferred build in PvT is a 2 or 3 gate robo (gate, robo, gate, [gate]). As long as Terran takes gas I feel pretty confident and can react to most things that may come. However if I scout no gas I'm not so sure what to do. I don't really want to rely on 1 base all-in (immortals or 4 gate warp prism), but if I just play standard and drop my expo around 6 minutes mark, I feel like I'm getting behind.
Given I'd like to stick to fast robo opening what is the best thing to do if I scout no gas?
- abandon build and drop nexus asap (cut probes? follow-up?)
- cut units and fast tech to colossus?
- double forge?
- double expand?
I'd appreciate master/gm players input. Thanks in advance.
What do you mean you'd like to stick with fast robo openings ?
Against gasless 1 rax FE, early robos are pretty much useless.
The only time you would need an early robo is if you are planning on doing some form of immortal bust all-in.
Edit : Once that is cleared up, basically what monk said.
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On January 09 2012 20:39 Sated wrote:2-Base Immortal All-Ins in PvT: I know that somebody has to have done something more refined than what I'm suggesting here, so does anyone have any suggestions? + Show Spoiler +1) I open with MC's 1gate FE, which gives you 3 gateways, a fast robo and a relatively fast expansion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136¤tpage=102) After scouting for possible aggression with Probes and the first Observer, I use all chronoboosts to saturate the main and natural mineral lines. I take a third gas at the natural as soon as the mineral line has 10+ Probes. I do not take the fourth gas. This means that I create 18+18+3+3+3 = 45 Probes in total. 3) The units I warp in are heavily Zealot/Sentry, only a handful or Stalkers required unless Terran is going for some sort of air-based play. Do not miss a warp-in cycle (although I often do, Platinum macro T_T) 4) After creating 2 Observers (1 for scouting, 1 for army/base defence), I start chronoboosting out Immortals. At this point, I place down 2 more gateways as soon as I can afford them. 5) Once 2 Immortals are out, I move across the map and plant a proxy pylon. I leave 3/4 Stalkers at home to try and deflect possible drops if I know that Medivacs are out. The 4th and 5th gateways should finish just as I move out. 6) Attack! Keep building Immortals and warp in Zealot/Sentry, avoid further Stalker production. Focus chronoboost on gateways. Use Sentries to forcefield the Terran army up against your Zealots and use the Immortals to insta-destroy bunkers. If the Terran natural goes down, contain Terran on one base whilst expanding to a third and resuming Probe production. I do not go up the Terran ramp unless I am sure I can bust it, Zealots and Immortals do not do well on choked-off ramps. Anyone? The attack hits around 10-11 minutes depending on how badly I macro, with a bunch of Zealot/Sentry and 2 or 3 Immortals. I've only been playing customs on PeepMode and against Green Tea A.I. recently so I don't really know how effective it is on ladder, but I imagine it should work at my level (Platinum). I just don't want to keep doing something sub-optimal and I'm sure I've seen other people doing this (hence why I started). + Show Spoiler +Even tried it in a PvZ against a Diamond player on PeepMode and would've won if I hadn't let a ling run-by destroy my natural whilst I wrecked their third and natural. Ran out of steam after that! Silly me.
I only Immortal-allin if I started off with 2 Gate Robo so the exact timings are different, but on a general basis you are too late. You should hit before or at worst right when Medivacs pop out, not when they could drop in your base already. 45 probes is way too much, you should get around 10 less. 2 Observers are pointless as well, one should be enough. 6 Gateways are probably better than 5 as well, so you can micro in peace and don't have to worry about hitting every warp cycle exactly. You should also not build any more Immortals once the attack starts because they take too long to reinforce. As for the unit composition, I prefer to go Stalker/Sentry heavy, which has some advantages. You can kill the Bunkers in a cleaner fashion since your FFs that prevent the SCVs from repairing aren't blocking your Zealots. It is also easier to bust up the main ramp if necessary. The disadvantage is that you need both a lot and good Forcefields, so if you are not confident in them or don't have enough high-energy sentries you should stick with the Zealot-heavy approach. I have seen both work already in pro-games.
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what unit composition should i go, when i scout marine/tank turteling on like 3 bases? immortals, voidrays, phoenixes own the tanks but suck vs marines.. chargelots with high upgrades are nice, but everything on the ground dies vs 10+ tanks in a second.. archons/storm also didnt really help.. dts are fine till terran gets turrets
what do you do against this?
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On January 09 2012 17:39 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 17:28 kusto wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey all,
currently i play Protoss (silver), as i want to get better with this race.
For PvT, i do the MC 1 gate expand build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136). But i find myself in trouble even if i hold early MMM attacks.
The reason for this is that i don't know when to attack after this. I need some checkpoints that make sense. I macro better than my opponent mostly, but this advantage nullifies as both max out.
So i would like to ask - what is a good time to attack? When 2 collossi are out -> take third & pressure? Or rather go for third + upgrades + twilight upgrades first?
Note that i would like ANY checkpoint to oppose/deny the terran's third, as in Silver league my macro is most of the time superior than the opponents, so i would like to have one timing i can vary later if things get more close.
Thanks for help! uploading a replay may help. but yes just simple things like, attack when you get range collosi, or attack when you get 1-1 upgrades etc. i would suggest colossi simpler for silver level. if you can just keep making probes, are doing that economic build, add enough gateways to keep money low, a 2 base attack with 3 range collosi will outright kill most terrans at that level.
Thanks. I will attack @ 3collossus with range, and hope that i can at least deny the teran's third.
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I search for the 4 gate blink observer all in that played MC, JYP, Hero and some other protoss often in the last time.
May anybody have a replay of it that i see the timings from robo/twilight and when i have to cut probes.
And can i hold with this a normal 4 Gate on maps with ramps (not on Taldarim)?
Sorry if im blind and dont see/find a thread about it.
Thank you =)
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Around what time in PvP is a good time to add a forge for upgrades (assuming a macro game)?
Also, how many observers should I have past 15/20 minutes (all match ups)?
Thanks for any help.
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On January 09 2012 21:57 Stoffelhase wrote:
what unit composition should i go, when i scout marine/tank turteling on like 3 bases? immortals, voidrays, phoenixes own the tanks but suck vs marines.. chargelots with high upgrades are nice, but everything on the ground dies vs 10+ tanks in a second.. archons/storm also didnt really help.. dts are fine till terran gets turrets
what do you do against this?
If the terran is turteling you get ALL the bases and ALL the units. If he's not going to pressure you, why bother picking one when you can have them all? 5-6 HTs, 5-6 DTs, 5-6 colossi and 5-6 voids. Blink stalkers in order to get close to the tanks and chargelots to tank and spank.
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On January 09 2012 20:59 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:55 habermas wrote:
PvT. I'm looking for some hints on how to deal with Terran gasless expand. My preferred build in PvT is a 2 or 3 gate robo (gate, robo, gate, [gate]). As long as Terran takes gas I feel pretty confident and can react to most things that may come. However if I scout no gas I'm not so sure what to do. I don't really want to rely on 1 base all-in (immortals or 4 gate warp prism), but if I just play standard and drop my expo around 6 minutes mark, I feel like I'm getting behind.
Given I'd like to stick to fast robo opening what is the best thing to do if I scout no gas?
- abandon build and drop nexus asap (cut probes? follow-up?)
- cut units and fast tech to colossus?
- double forge?
- double expand?
I'd appreciate master/gm players input. Thanks in advance. Going 2-3 gate robo already puts you slightly behind versus 1 rax gas expand. Even going a standard 1 gate expand puts you behind gasless expand. Going 2-3 gate robo puts you very behind versus gasless expand. Thus, I highly recommend you do a different build versus gasless expand. The standard responses versus a gasless expand are either a gateway no core expand or a greedy variation of a gateway/core expand.
Is it possible to 3 Gate/Robo bust or 4 Gate bust this (on the fly) if you think you have scouted it right?
I tried a 3 Gate recently against this on Shakuras but was late and sloppy on my execution and was easily repulsed by 3 bunkers on the natural ramp (bunkers on Shakuras in that position make Terran very safe, IMO). I was wondering however, if it was still a viable strat if I did it better. Or is it simply better to take the Terran's cue and go into Macro mode yourself?
Thanks.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 10 2012 04:23 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:59 NrGmonk wrote:On January 09 2012 20:55 habermas wrote:
PvT. I'm looking for some hints on how to deal with Terran gasless expand. My preferred build in PvT is a 2 or 3 gate robo (gate, robo, gate, [gate]). As long as Terran takes gas I feel pretty confident and can react to most things that may come. However if I scout no gas I'm not so sure what to do. I don't really want to rely on 1 base all-in (immortals or 4 gate warp prism), but if I just play standard and drop my expo around 6 minutes mark, I feel like I'm getting behind.
Given I'd like to stick to fast robo opening what is the best thing to do if I scout no gas?
- abandon build and drop nexus asap (cut probes? follow-up?)
- cut units and fast tech to colossus?
- double forge?
- double expand?
I'd appreciate master/gm players input. Thanks in advance. Going 2-3 gate robo already puts you slightly behind versus 1 rax gas expand. Even going a standard 1 gate expand puts you behind gasless expand. Going 2-3 gate robo puts you very behind versus gasless expand. Thus, I highly recommend you do a different build versus gasless expand. The standard responses versus a gasless expand are either a gateway no core expand or a greedy variation of a gateway/core expand. Is it possible to 3 Gate/Robo bust or 4 Gate bust this (on the fly) if you think you have scouted it right? I tried a 3 Gate recently against this on Shakuras but was late and sloppy on my execution and was easily repulsed by 3 bunkers on the natural ramp (bunkers on Shakuras in that position make Terran very safe, IMO). I was wondering however, if it was still a viable strat if I did it better. Or is it simply better to take the Terran's cue and go into Macro mode yourself? Thanks.
That will only work if your opponent makes a big mistake.
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On January 09 2012 20:59 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:55 habermas wrote:
PvT. I'm looking for some hints on how to deal with Terran gasless expand. My preferred build in PvT is a 2 or 3 gate robo (gate, robo, gate, [gate]). As long as Terran takes gas I feel pretty confident and can react to most things that may come. However if I scout no gas I'm not so sure what to do. I don't really want to rely on 1 base all-in (immortals or 4 gate warp prism), but if I just play standard and drop my expo around 6 minutes mark, I feel like I'm getting behind.
Given I'd like to stick to fast robo opening what is the best thing to do if I scout no gas?
- abandon build and drop nexus asap (cut probes? follow-up?)
- cut units and fast tech to colossus?
- double forge?
- double expand?
I'd appreciate master/gm players input. Thanks in advance. Going 2-3 gate robo already puts you slightly behind versus 1 rax gas expand. Even going a standard 1 gate expand puts you behind gasless expand. Going 2-3 gate robo puts you very behind versus gasless expand. Thus, I highly recommend you do a different build versus gasless expand. The standard responses versus a gasless expand are either a gateway no core expand or a greedy variation of a gateway/core expand.
On January 09 2012 21:00 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 20:55 habermas wrote:
PvT. I'm looking for some hints on how to deal with Terran gasless expand. My preferred build in PvT is a 2 or 3 gate robo (gate, robo, gate, [gate]). As long as Terran takes gas I feel pretty confident and can react to most things that may come. However if I scout no gas I'm not so sure what to do. I don't really want to rely on 1 base all-in (immortals or 4 gate warp prism), but if I just play standard and drop my expo around 6 minutes mark, I feel like I'm getting behind.
Given I'd like to stick to fast robo opening what is the best thing to do if I scout no gas?
- abandon build and drop nexus asap (cut probes? follow-up?)
- cut units and fast tech to colossus?
- double forge?
- double expand?
I'd appreciate master/gm players input. Thanks in advance. What do you mean you'd like to stick with fast robo openings ? Against gasless 1 rax FE, early robos are pretty much useless. The only time you would need an early robo is if you are planning on doing some form of immortal bust all-in. Edit : Once that is cleared up, basically what monk said.
Yeah makes sense. I just feel very comfortable playing 2 gate robo. Guess I'll have to do some research and learn other openings. Thanks.
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EPT
