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PeaCeR
57 Posts
I Only play safe when i go the classic 3gate expo, but some friends talked to me, this build is so bad nowadays, and everyone are going to FFE. But i cant execute the FFE well, i am losing so much to zerg rushes like one base roach, and its impossible for me to defend, some tips please. | ||
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
On January 08 2012 09:13 PeaCeR wrote: Guys i dont know what i do to handle zerg these days. I Only play safe when i go the classic 3gate expo, but some friends talked to me, this build is so bad nowadays, and everyone are going to FFE. But i cant execute the FFE well, i am losing so much to zerg rushes like one base roach, and its impossible for me to defend, some tips please. When you go FFE its really important to scout proper. Scout at 9 after building your first pylon and check for which buildorder he went, if you see hes going for hatch first you can safely go Nexus before forge (theres absolutely no reason not to). If you scout a standard pool timing go 13 forge 17 Nexus. Keep your probe at his natural in this case to see when hes going to expand, if his lings are about to come out and you haven't seen an expo yet, but you scouted gas hide your probe somewhere near to his natural, so you can come back later to check if hes really expanding (to make sure hes not doing some 1 base all-in with banes or roaches). It doesn't really matter if the probe dies, because the information this scout gives to you is well worth it. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On January 08 2012 07:03 Drowsy wrote: Yeah he's definitely talking about 3 base muta play, which is usually way more straightforward because you can do some damage with your zealot pressure and have a good 2+ minutes to prepare after your pressure. I experimented with it and blink, +2, and immortals seems to just totally crush it, not sure you even need to get storm and prepare for the long haul. Might as well end it asap. I quote this from rsvp in his thread Also, this discussion is more oriented towards playing out the long macro game against mutas. Going 2 base all-in and trying to kill the zerg before he gets mutas or right after he gets mutas is certainly a viable option, but I’m not really going talk about that in this thread. The reason is that either the 2 base all-in is pre-mediated (so you were planning to all-in regardless of the zerg going mutas or not), or you weren't planning to 2 base all-in but upon scouting the spire you decided to attack, and in that case you either succeed and win or fail and lose. Either way there's not much to discuss. At no point does he mention Zerg going 2 or 3 base Muta in his guide. He states that unless you plan on doing a strong 2 base all in before mutas pop, the responses should be as he details. His guide outlines handling Mutalisks in general. Keep in mind a 2 base Muta opening doesn't necessarily mean that Zerg will stay on two base. As I said, he will probably expand once he has you contained in your base turtled with some dead probes lying on the ground near the nexus. I feel that doing an all in is fine if thats what you want to do but note the person is asking for help following up a 4 gate zealot/void ray pressure. The follow up upon scouting mutas is to do as rsvp points out. Four warpgate zealot pressure, if you scout a lot of spine crawlers at the front with the zealots doesn't bring you very close to being able to pull off a well timed 7 gate +2 blink timing, 7 gate in general, or immortal timing. So unless he scouts it really early and is able to have 7 gates finishing together I would suggest following RSVP's tips and moving into a macro based game since adding 3 gateways getting +2 and blink will mean the mutas are probably already harassing and you can no longer be aggressive with a decisive kill move. At this point, when already super defensive if you try to stay two base and attack it won't go well at all. The opening the person asked helped for tailors better into backing off, expanding using the zealots to defend ling counters and transitioning into 3 base blink HT play. Using the void ray to harass any hidden expos and kill off overlords before Mutas pop out is also good. The 2 phoenix which follow the void ray are also helpful in scouting and the follow up robo (in terms of tech the build calls for) allows for easy spread of observers. Keeping in mind that the build also focuses on getting 1/0/1 before twilight is important as well since it sets him up for having good upgrades to help against the mutas. His opening is focused on killing a greedy third, pressuring to prevent pure drone production if they go heavy eco and regain map control in the early mid game. Furthermore, if the Zerg does the common, roach warren to defend until lair and Mutas come out then the void ray can help control the middle of the map, making any sort of heavy roach pressure without anti air less likely before the Protoss 3rd gets up and in some cases the void ray/phoenix combo early on will dissuade some Zerg players from going Muta. It also doesn't hurt to try and focus on learning macro oriented play as it is more difficult, and will force more growth and understanding as a player. Even if they stay 2 base, with the zealot void ray pressure you still have time to make stalkers to defend the mineral line and put down a twilight council to tech to blink. With a strong economy and 4 gas running there is nothing stopping you from adding a twilight council, and getting blink while making stalkers and using excess minerals to attempt an expand. You will have 4 gates already up and running enough to hold off the initial 7 or 8 mutas. If you see it early enough and dont make another 4 zealots with the 4 gates when attacking, you can spend those minerals expanding instead. Remember Zerg is holing up behind spines the only thing he can do is wait for his harass units before attacking so take the 400 minerals that would otherwise be useless zealots, running back home and make it a big pylon that takes longer to build. Or cannons in the mineral line or stalkers even. Sorry for the rant but it seems like you are focused on providing an answer that is not quite adequate for the question being asked. He didn't ask what to do if he suspects 2 base muta play, instead how to follow up the void ray 4 gate +1 zealot pressure when he sees that it might be Mutas and not a 3rd base heavy macro oriented play. Edit: sorry for the rant Im really tired and I've had a lot of coffee today didn't realise how long that was :x | ||
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MooSlapper
United States113 Posts
I noticed that when I go for an engagement--- say to snipe an expo--- the workers often escape, and I find the engagement to not be THAT big a deal--- ok, I killed their expo and ran off... not too much damage. Before going for the expo, perhaps it is more damaging to initially target the workers--- THEN the expo? Is that not more damaging? Perhaps with the use of sentries to block them in--- but it is hard to focus fire them because you auto attack the CC/Hach/Nex a lot... When it comes to hitting expos--- is it best to not take your whole army? I find that maybe a small troop of zealots can do the job just fine---- often I take my whole army around then I get screwed back at home by drops or something.... its gay. Do pros always make sure they have warp ins available??? Like--- before you warp in at a forward position, do you need to do some reconisance to make sure there are no drops coming or something? I often warp in forward, just to find out a medivac is droppoing on my base (or im supply blocked) | ||
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Amornthep
Singapore2605 Posts
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MooSlapper
United States113 Posts
Anyway, the army came out and it was working out alright---- I was harassing enemy base, getting some building snipes... Eventually, he just amde a bunch of immortals and I was no longer able to engage him because my stalkers were just disintegrating.. How do ppl play Blink Stalkers when it is so hard countered? What is your strategy? Are you supposed to phase out of it shortly? I went Dark Templar next which was alright to further my harassment but it wasn't enough.... Should I put archons in my army? What is the short adn long-term strategy of blink stalker play Pvp? | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 07 2012 19:09 Tobias wrote: My 2 cents; you were way WAY late with your teching and had an army made of almost 100% gateway units. By the time he took out your third you should've had several colossi and ideally a few HTs which would've allowed you to hold that push. Yeah, I've reviewed a few games, and that is true. It's an old fault though, as I don't like the Colossus and am partial to heavy Gateway compositions + Immortal against Z and T. I'll have to tech up better next time I play PvZ and the Zerg stays on 2 bases for a long time. Either that, or if he is going mass Roach or Roach heavy compositions, I put down 2 Robo Bays and double pump Immortals while making Gateway units off 4 gates and chrono the Forge for the upgrades (I'd actually prefer this over going Colossus but I'll see how it goes). I'm still not sure how to handle 2 base Zerg play though with a 3rd taken late (at least for Zerg) behind a strong Roach based army. My usual 2 gate expo is quite effective though against early 3rd play or against tech play as, if all is going well, my build hits with +1 and Hallu around the 9 minute mark (with the expo around 5.40). I'll try the double Robo Immortal play (depending on scouting information, of course) to secure my 3rd and see how it goes. Stalkers really suck against Roaches as the game goes on, and I don't have the micro yet for fancy blink play while my FF needs work. Quite a lot to do this season to get out of Gold and into Platinum. Good times. Thanks.  | ||
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Tobias
Sweden187 Posts
On January 08 2012 15:41 aZealot wrote: Yeah, I've reviewed a few games, and that is true. It's an old fault though, as I don't like the Colossus and am partial to heavy Gateway compositions + Immortal against Z and T. I'll have to tech up better next time I play PvZ and the Zerg stays on 2 bases for a long time. Either that, or if he is going mass Roach or Roach heavy compositions, I put down 2 Robo Bays and double pump Immortals while making Gateway units off 4 gates and chrono the Forge for the upgrades (I'd actually prefer this over going Colossus but I'll see how it goes). I'm still not sure how to handle 2 base Zerg play though with a 3rd taken late (at least for Zerg) behind a strong Roach based army. My usual 2 gate expo is quite effective though against early 3rd play or against tech play as, if all is going well, my build hits with +1 and Hallu around the 9 minute mark (with the expo around 5.40). I'll try the double Robo Immortal play (depending on scouting information, of course) to secure my 3rd and see how it goes. Stalkers really suck against Roaches as the game goes on, and I don't have the micro yet for fancy blink play while my FF needs work. Quite a lot to do this season to get out of Gold and into Platinum. Good times. Thanks. Well, the colossus is really good against all three races, I'd say the least good against terran and necessary against zerg. You really need to kind of AOE colossus and HTs provide when going up against a race that can produce endless amounts of fragile units. The colossus can wreak havoc on anything that's in large numbers on the ground, and the HTs can do the same for both ground and air plus feedback infestors so they'll usually die or can at least not fungal you or NP your colossi. Couple the colossus with void rays against zerg and you're golden. | ||
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Lisitsa
Korea (South)29 Posts
(On a side note, how do you get to not hate mirror match-ups? It is just not fun at all... -_- Even when I am doing pretty well n terms of results, I simply can't enjoy it as if I was playing a PvT or, particularly, PvZ. I don't really have particular strength or weakness in a certain MU, but PvZ is just so much more fun to play for whatever reason...) Here is the questions; just for reference, I am mid masters player. So, is 4-gate still the go-to build on TDA? And on other maps with proper ramp block possible, I am assuming I should not be dying to straightout 4-gate - in this case, what do I make out of gateways (sentries or stalkers?), and do I still invest all of my chrono boosts into warpgate research? Do I still go straight for robotics once cybernatics core is complete? I tend to go for 3-gate robotics as my opening on maps other than TDA. In situation where no player commits to 4-gate or similar all-ins, my understanding of build strength and weaknesses is phoenix play>robotics>blink stalker>phoenix, is that generally correct? I would like to know if I have been trying to beat rocks with scissors; please let me know if I am on the right direction. Details on how each of these is played out would be greatly appreciated, but I assume it is my responsibility to play it and figure out myself. I have no practice partners or whatever (all my friends either quit or low level), so when I am struggling with a particular build in a particular match-up I feel as if I was blinded; laddering does not help much because it is only 1/3 chance that you'll get that match-up, and if you count on specific maps and the chances of the opponent doing that specific build, it becomes pretty much useless for the purpose of practicing that particular situation. 1/1/1 once has been like that to me; I simply could not practice against it. I am so lacking in terms of information although I regularly search forums  Thanks in advance for any help! | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
On January 08 2012 19:15 Lisitsa wrote: Okay, I ended up hating mirrors just so much that whenever I hit ladder and get PvP I feel the desire to simply leave the game instantly. Partly due to bad win rates (well my PvT win rate is lower than that of PvP, but I enjoy playing PvT more) so I believe some advice on the aspect with which I'm struggling would help a lot. (On a side note, how do you get to not hate mirror match-ups? It is just not fun at all... -_- Even when I am doing pretty well n terms of results, I simply can't enjoy it as if I was playing a PvT or, particularly, PvZ. I don't really have particular strength or weakness in a certain MU, but PvZ is just so much more fun to play for whatever reason...) Here is the questions; just for reference, I am mid masters player. So, is 4-gate still the go-to build on TDA? And on other maps with proper ramp block possible, I am assuming I should not be dying to straightout 4-gate - in this case, what do I make out of gateways (sentries or stalkers?), and do I still invest all of my chrono boosts into warpgate research? Do I still go straight for robotics once cybernatics core is complete? I tend to go for 3-gate robotics as my opening on maps other than TDA. In situation where no player commits to 4-gate or similar all-ins, my understanding of build strength and weaknesses is phoenix play>robotics>blink stalker>phoenix, is that generally correct? I would like to know if I have been trying to beat rocks with scissors; please let me know if I am on the right direction. Details on how each of these is played out would be greatly appreciated, but I assume it is my responsibility to play it and figure out myself. I have no practice partners or whatever (all my friends either quit or low level), so when I am struggling with a particular build in a particular match-up I feel as if I was blinded; laddering does not help much because it is only 1/3 chance that you'll get that match-up, and if you count on specific maps and the chances of the opponent doing that specific build, it becomes pretty much useless for the purpose of practicing that particular situation. 1/1/1 once has been like that to me; I simply could not practice against it. I am so lacking in terms of information although I regularly search forums Thanks in advance for any help! 4 gates on TDA yes. You can also try Inori's 3 gate if you are feeling gosu. Phoenix>robo>blink>phoenix is not completely accurate. This is a quick overview of PvP builds http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278139 . However this is still general stuff, if you want to learn more about PvP, and the exact dynamic between builds, you should check out the PvP threads in the recommended threads thread (just saw NrGmonk had added my phoenix thread, thx monk^^). Right now there are two main builds I think Phoenix play, and Robo Twilight which seem to be doing ok vs each other. Then there are blink expand builds, and DT expand builds. I think 1 base colossi has fallen out of fashion. I would advise you to read through all the "standard" tagged threads in the PvP section of the recommended threads and your understanding of the matchup should be much better. | ||
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ifritwins
United States2 Posts
http://drop.sc/88293 | ||
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Tigi
Germany472 Posts
On January 08 2012 15:14 MooSlapper wrote: Anotehr questino--- PvP--- I tried to go blink stalkers + observer.. it's quite expensive to get robo & twilight and my troops came out slow.... Anyway, the army came out and it was working out alright---- I was harassing enemy base, getting some building snipes... Eventually, he just amde a bunch of immortals and I was no longer able to engage him because my stalkers were just disintegrating.. How do ppl play Blink Stalkers when it is so hard countered? What is your strategy? Are you supposed to phase out of it shortly? I went Dark Templar next which was alright to further my harassment but it wasn't enough.... Should I put archons in my army? What is the short adn long-term strategy of blink stalker play Pvp? If you have blink stalkers + obs you really want to take a "greedy" expension. Like greedy in the way that your opponent could just kill your army in theory at least, in reality he can't because if he moves out , you just jump in his base and jump out if he comes back. Eventually when you have 2 bases you tech up to collossi and play a normal macro game ( in most cases he will take an expo himself in which cases you have to keep harassing either in his main or at his natu until you fell you're in a good spot.) | ||
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Ulfsark
United States958 Posts
Edit: in PvP that is. | ||
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Yaki
France4234 Posts
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LeakyBucket
Canada76 Posts
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On January 09 2012 04:22 ifritwins wrote: hey, everyone. i'm a bronze league player, so i'm still pretty new. i was rank 2 just yesterday, and then i went on a losing streak for seemingly no reason. i know i shouldn't focus too much on leagues but i'm really sick of being in bronze and want more of a challenge...but all of the sudden other bronze players are wiping the floor with me when i used to be doing very well. what am i doing wrong? http://drop.sc/88293 next time mention which player you are in replay I assumed you were the losing player 1st, always get core before zealot. 17 minutes into the game you have 2000 minerals and 1000 gas. that is the main problem. you get yourself supply blocked. each gateway unit costs 2 supply and a collosus costs 4 supply. once the game gets going and your supply gets above say 50 if you have a robo and 6 gateways, only one warp in and a robo unit requires 2 pylons. be happy to plant 3 or 4 pylons at a time if required, check your supply, if within 20 of supply cap then make more pylons right away, dont wait until you are 4 supply away from blocked, because you will get blocked. your probe production is good but you need to expand alot more. at one point you have 75 probes to his 42 but he has more income than you. you let your bases get way oversaturated. if you box all probes on a base and hotkey them, look at the hotkey and it will tell you how many probes are mining there. not sure on exact number but if there's over 30 then any over 30 are useless and need to be transferred. if you are close to saturating two bases take a third. if your money gets high take another base etc. try and get collosi earlier, collosi cost lots so will help you to keep your money low. you didn't seem to have much of a build or gameplan, the two robos went pretty much unused for the first 12 minutes, and the first expansion felt very random. try and play with more of a gameplan etc. I will 3 gate robo, expand when i make obs, make support bay and a couple more gateways when i expand, then keep making units and attack when i have 3 collosi, taking a 3rd base if i have not won with this attack. just something along those lines, having a plan for a timing attack in mind whether it's a good or bad plan will help to keep your money low and macro good as you don't have as many mind-blanks where you're wondering what to spend your money on. use hotkeys more, most of your nexi are unhotkeyed, most of your gateways are unhotkeyed, all your robos unhotkeyed, no army hotkeyed etc. you can add your second nexus to your first nexus hotkey. meaning you can just press 1ee and it will produce probes from both buildings. select second nexus and hold shift + hotkey for first nexus. same for gateways and other things. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On January 09 2012 04:22 ifritwins wrote: hey, everyone. i'm a bronze league player, so i'm still pretty new. i was rank 2 just yesterday, and then i went on a losing streak for seemingly no reason. i know i shouldn't focus too much on leagues but i'm really sick of being in bronze and want more of a challenge...but all of the sudden other bronze players are wiping the floor with me when i used to be doing very well. what am i doing wrong? http://drop.sc/88293 Let me just add something to the above poster, without checking the replay. The other bronze players are wiping the floor with you now because your MMR has increased quite a bit, so you're facing tougher opponents. | ||
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Yaki
France4234 Posts
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Vod.kaholic
United States1052 Posts
On January 09 2012 06:55 Yaki wrote: does archon charglots beat colossi ? Only when there are 3 or fewer colossi on the field, and you have at least 3 archons. Once the colossi numbers get to 4 or 5 and higher, archon chargelot will start evaporating against upgraded colossi and stalkers. So if you want to win with chargelot-archon you'll need to have a good idea of your opponent's colossus count and hit him before he amasses too many colossi. EDIT: I assume this is also related to your previous question, so a chargelot-archon timing could possibly have beaten his composition, but there's no way of saying for sure without seeing a replay... | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On January 09 2012 06:55 Yaki wrote: does archon charglots beat colossi ? in small engagements in the midgame unless you are trying to engage in chokes yes it does beat it, but once the collosi hit a critical number the chargelots basically insta-die so in large supply engagements collosi will win. if you are going to go chargelot archon versus collosi only my opinion but I feel you need to either force a decent engagement before collosi number gets out of control....or try and take a really early 3rd to either force him into engaging you when you are strong, or let you out-eco him. but there are maps like entombed valley and antiga shipyard where you can quite happily turtle with collosi and max out on them to be a very hard army to beat, also shakuras being able to put your colossi on the highground in the midmap where chargelots cant touch them makes them great for this map. | ||
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