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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On January 06 2012 15:16 K3Nyy wrote:
I've been wondering how do Protoss usually approach PvT these days?
Opening Colo first seems really really weak as Colo timing attacks seem to be easily deflected and it's vulnerable to drops. I've been going blink double forge but I'm not sure if my transition out of it is too slow. What's the standard transition out of it?
Also, what's the midgame composition supposed to look like? Is Colo a must in the midgame, or can I get away with pure gateway units?
Currently playing high masters/GM players, would like someone with similar skill or higher to comment please. Thank you.
I've been finding that I can outright die to any heavy Bio push if they play it correctly when I open collosus. Often times they will hit right the first one pops out and thermal lance isn't completed.
Thusly, I've been going with a more gateway centric approach. 30 food one gate expand, with + 2 gates shortly after the Nexus. Depending on the map and the opponent build, I add gasses and robo as needed. If I feel like I can do some damage, I will add a fourth gate and do some pressuring. If there is no bunker / only one bunker, I can often break them with good force fields. If not, I'll drop 2 forges and a council and begin to tech up. If they are going for a 2 medivac push after FE, I'll just be finishing 1/1 and close to charge/or blink when the push hits. Good force fields will keep you alive and you're set to get up to templar from there on.
I will usually switch into double collosus production after a third or fouth base is established, as the tech switch from templar to collosus can be utterly devestating at that point in the game. I make sure to use remaining templar that I have to feedback their medivacs, so they have to choose whether or not to produce vikings or re-make medivacs.
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On January 06 2012 14:57 AirbladeOrange wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 14:30 Quochobao wrote:
Can anyone give a pointer about transition after holding off cheeses?
Such as:
- 6 pool vs FFE (I put up a pylon and cannon in main, but lose one pylon and the forge.)
- cannon rush PvP (what to do when they put 1-2 cannon up ramp?)
I know that this question may be dumb, since after cheese I'm supposed to be ahead. But I want to ask for the most efficient transition, since sometimes I probe too hard and lose to subsequent all-in, and other times I commit to a counter attack too much that I lose my advantage... I know it's a very general thing to say but unless you think you are far enough ahead to attack very soon to win outright, just follow whatever build you were going for originally as well as you can, taking the small to moderate victory of holding the cheese.
For PvZ Tal'darim though, how do I go about taking my natural? Zerg can so often follow up with a roach all-in while I'm investing in a nexus, probes, and a wall that I don't have enough units/cannon to hold...
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On January 07 2012 05:37 Quochobao wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 14:57 AirbladeOrange wrote:On January 06 2012 14:30 Quochobao wrote:
Can anyone give a pointer about transition after holding off cheeses?
Such as:
- 6 pool vs FFE (I put up a pylon and cannon in main, but lose one pylon and the forge.)
- cannon rush PvP (what to do when they put 1-2 cannon up ramp?)
I know that this question may be dumb, since after cheese I'm supposed to be ahead. But I want to ask for the most efficient transition, since sometimes I probe too hard and lose to subsequent all-in, and other times I commit to a counter attack too much that I lose my advantage... I know it's a very general thing to say but unless you think you are far enough ahead to attack very soon to win outright, just follow whatever build you were going for originally as well as you can, taking the small to moderate victory of holding the cheese. For PvZ Tal'darim though, how do I go about taking my natural? Zerg can so often follow up with a roach all-in while I'm investing in a nexus, probes, and a wall that I don't have enough units/cannon to hold...
Edit: What was your follow up? Do you get a bunch of sentries? A fast void ray? Did you scout the zerg?
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On January 07 2012 06:59 AirbladeOrange wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 05:37 Quochobao wrote:On January 06 2012 14:57 AirbladeOrange wrote:On January 06 2012 14:30 Quochobao wrote:
Can anyone give a pointer about transition after holding off cheeses?
Such as:
- 6 pool vs FFE (I put up a pylon and cannon in main, but lose one pylon and the forge.)
- cannon rush PvP (what to do when they put 1-2 cannon up ramp?)
I know that this question may be dumb, since after cheese I'm supposed to be ahead. But I want to ask for the most efficient transition, since sometimes I probe too hard and lose to subsequent all-in, and other times I commit to a counter attack too much that I lose my advantage... I know it's a very general thing to say but unless you think you are far enough ahead to attack very soon to win outright, just follow whatever build you were going for originally as well as you can, taking the small to moderate victory of holding the cheese. For PvZ Tal'darim though, how do I go about taking my natural? Zerg can so often follow up with a roach all-in while I'm investing in a nexus, probes, and a wall that I don't have enough units/cannon to hold... Edit: What was your follow up? Do you get a bunch of sentries? A fast void ray? Did you scout the zerg?
I proxy 3 gates in his base with my scouting probe a` la Whitera nowadays lol
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Right, so I'm laddering again after a bit of a hiatus due to a busy December work-wise and then the Holidays.
Anyway, I keep getting stomped by pure Roach or Roach/Ling or Roach/Infestor compositions. Any tips on how to deal with this? This replay is from a game played earlier today on TDA. I 2 gate expo as that is my standard PvZ opening (I suck at FFE although I am working on it). However, our spawn positions were relatively close so I don't think the large size of TDA was such a factor in terms of losing out in BO. Reviewing the game, my macro was not the best but my opponents was about the same as mine, and we were roughly equal bases for most of the game. I guess the key moment was losing my 3rd while I probably should have pushed his 3rd when I counter-attacked (but he remaxed real fast and I was hesitant to over-commit). Maybe scouted for the 4th and attacked that while pushing Zealots at his 3rd with my proxy pylon which he failed to scout all game?
In the end I had an upgrade advantage, but still got rolled (despite some close engagements leading to the last battle). I'm not sure if the NP of 2 of my Colossus was the main reason I lost though (although I did panic when I saw that). I had a worker advantage for most of the game too. Any thoughts, Brotoss? I ended Season 3 in top Gold but didnt play enough in Season 4 and laddering again in Season 5 is turning into a struggle (I've dropped way down in Gold). Any advice would be great.
Replay is here: http://drop.sc/86033
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On January 07 2012 14:01 aZealot wrote:Right, so I'm laddering again after a bit of a hiatus due to a busy December work-wise and then the Holidays. Anyway, I keep getting stomped by pure Roach or Roach/Ling or Roach/Infestor compositions. Any tips on how to deal with this? This replay is from a game played earlier today on TDA. I 2 gate expo as that is my standard PvZ opening (I suck at FFE although I am working on it). However, our spawn positions were relatively close so I don't think the large size of TDA was such a factor in terms of losing out in BO. Reviewing the game, my macro was not the best but my opponents was about the same as mine, and we were roughly equal bases for most of the game. I guess the key moment was losing my 3rd while I probably should have pushed his 3rd when I counter-attacked (but he remaxed real fast and I was hesitant to over-commit). Maybe scouted for the 4th and attacked that while pushing Zealots at his 3rd with my proxy pylon which he failed to scout all game? In the end I had an upgrade advantage, but still got rolled (despite some close engagements leading to the last battle). I'm not sure if the NP of 2 of my Colossus was the main reason I lost though (although I did panic when I saw that). I had a worker advantage for most of the game too. Any thoughts, Brotoss? I ended Season 3 in top Gold but didnt play enough in Season 4 and laddering again in Season 5 is turning into a struggle (I've dropped way down in Gold). Any advice would be great. Replay is here: http://drop.sc/86033
My 2 cents; you were way WAY late with your teching and had an army made of almost 100% gateway units. By the time he took out your third you should've had several colossi and ideally a few HTs which would've allowed you to hold that push.
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What's the proper response to 2 base lair + spine crawlers in PVZ when you FFE and open with something like 4 warpgate zealot pressure? This is an obvious tell he's going to go muta off 2 base. Obviously you just back your zealots and voids if he's got lots of crawlers and no third, but what's the best way to follow up? Twilight Council+Robo and do a timing attack with blink+immortal and +2 weapons? It seems like taking a third is really just never ever works here, which makes sense considering you're technically ahead unless you lose a lot to mutalisks.
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On January 07 2012 19:23 Drowsy wrote:
What's the proper response to 2 base lair + spine crawlers in PVZ when you FFE and open with something like 4 warpgate zealot pressure? This is an obvious tell he's going to go muta off 2 base. Obviously you just back your zealots and voids if he's got lots of crawlers and no third, but what's the best way to follow up? Twilight Council+Robo and do a timing attack with blink+immortal and +2 weapons? It seems like taking a third is really just never ever works here, which makes sense considering you're technically ahead unless you lose a lot to mutalisks.
There's no point in taking a third if the zerg is staying on two bases. Get your blink, upgrades and your templar archives up, leave a few HTs and stalkers at each base to defend muta harass and roll him over. You may want to cannon up before leaving.
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Canada13379 Posts
On January 07 2012 21:37 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 19:23 Drowsy wrote:
What's the proper response to 2 base lair + spine crawlers in PVZ when you FFE and open with something like 4 warpgate zealot pressure? This is an obvious tell he's going to go muta off 2 base. Obviously you just back your zealots and voids if he's got lots of crawlers and no third, but what's the best way to follow up? Twilight Council+Robo and do a timing attack with blink+immortal and +2 weapons? It seems like taking a third is really just never ever works here, which makes sense considering you're technically ahead unless you lose a lot to mutalisks. There's no point in taking a third if the zerg is staying on two bases. Get your blink, upgrades and your templar archives up, leave a few HTs and stalkers at each base to defend muta harass and roll him over. You may want to cannon up before leaving.
To be fair, if you can take the third, at least try to. Its outlined in rsvp's guide found here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788
The reason being that a first small round of mutas probably can't kill the nexus and you need a lot of gas to defend mutalisk harass. They already spent a lot of money on a spine wall and thats going to limit how many lings they can send at you to kill your third. In terms of money, larva and overall economy. They can either rebuild the drones and have less larva for counters, or they can make zerglings and fall further behind in economy.
Also, the point to taking the third is that it pressures the Zerg. Either into killing you or expanding himself. Since Muta/Ling is not very good in straight up engagements they need to invest a lot into killing you and if you hold you will likely win. If they try to double expand then you have time to get storm up which can really help to deal with mutalisks.
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On January 07 2012 22:29 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 21:37 Tobias wrote:On January 07 2012 19:23 Drowsy wrote:
What's the proper response to 2 base lair + spine crawlers in PVZ when you FFE and open with something like 4 warpgate zealot pressure? This is an obvious tell he's going to go muta off 2 base. Obviously you just back your zealots and voids if he's got lots of crawlers and no third, but what's the best way to follow up? Twilight Council+Robo and do a timing attack with blink+immortal and +2 weapons? It seems like taking a third is really just never ever works here, which makes sense considering you're technically ahead unless you lose a lot to mutalisks. There's no point in taking a third if the zerg is staying on two bases. Get your blink, upgrades and your templar archives up, leave a few HTs and stalkers at each base to defend muta harass and roll him over. You may want to cannon up before leaving. To be fair, if you can take the third, at least try to. Its outlined in rsvp's guide found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788The reason being that a first small round of mutas probably can't kill the nexus and you need a lot of gas to defend mutalisk harass. They already spent a lot of money on a spine wall and thats going to limit how many lings they can send at you to kill your third. In terms of money, larva and overall economy. They can either rebuild the drones and have less larva for counters, or they can make zerglings and fall further behind in economy. Also, the point to taking the third is that it pressures the Zerg. Either into killing you or expanding himself. Since Muta/Ling is not very good in straight up engagements they need to invest a lot into killing you and if you hold you will likely win. If they try to double expand then you have time to get storm up which can really help to deal with mutalisks.
Not sure, but isn't kcdc talking about a zerg doing a "proper" 3-base muta play? Of course there's nothing wrong with taking a third if you can do it safely, but it's really not necessary.
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Can zealot archon immortal with a few hts and stalkers kill roach/infestor brood lord? I've used it so far but i lost most of those matches, and want to know if i just did something wrong or if the unit composition is not good against it.
Also please someone look at this replay, its a pretty long macro game, i think i played pretty decent but eventually my army just got crushed, obviously i made a stupid decision somewhere this game but i don't know what -_-.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)AMavh_vs_(P)Huriya/17109
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On January 08 2012 03:56 Guamshin wrote:Can zealot archon immortal with a few hts and stalkers kill roach/infestor brood lord? I've used it so far but i lost most of those matches, and want to know if i just did something wrong or if the unit composition is not good against it. Also please someone look at this replay, its a pretty long macro game, i think i played pretty decent but eventually my army just got crushed, obviously i made a stupid decision somewhere this game but i don't know what -_-. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)AMavh_vs_(P)Huriya/17109
No, not really. You need voids in there as well, and a mothership.
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Canada13379 Posts
On January 08 2012 03:35 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 22:29 ZeromuS wrote:On January 07 2012 21:37 Tobias wrote:On January 07 2012 19:23 Drowsy wrote:
What's the proper response to 2 base lair + spine crawlers in PVZ when you FFE and open with something like 4 warpgate zealot pressure? This is an obvious tell he's going to go muta off 2 base. Obviously you just back your zealots and voids if he's got lots of crawlers and no third, but what's the best way to follow up? Twilight Council+Robo and do a timing attack with blink+immortal and +2 weapons? It seems like taking a third is really just never ever works here, which makes sense considering you're technically ahead unless you lose a lot to mutalisks. There's no point in taking a third if the zerg is staying on two bases. Get your blink, upgrades and your templar archives up, leave a few HTs and stalkers at each base to defend muta harass and roll him over. You may want to cannon up before leaving. To be fair, if you can take the third, at least try to. Its outlined in rsvp's guide found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788The reason being that a first small round of mutas probably can't kill the nexus and you need a lot of gas to defend mutalisk harass. They already spent a lot of money on a spine wall and thats going to limit how many lings they can send at you to kill your third. In terms of money, larva and overall economy. They can either rebuild the drones and have less larva for counters, or they can make zerglings and fall further behind in economy. Also, the point to taking the third is that it pressures the Zerg. Either into killing you or expanding himself. Since Muta/Ling is not very good in straight up engagements they need to invest a lot into killing you and if you hold you will likely win. If they try to double expand then you have time to get storm up which can really help to deal with mutalisks. Not sure, but isn't kcdc talking about a zerg doing a "proper" 3-base muta play? Of course there's nothing wrong with taking a third if you can do it safely, but it's really not necessary.
Its col. RSVP's thread 
And the thing is you need the gas from 3 bases to support your composition. You need to take that third. Best case scenario the Z doesn't expand, more probably though you will get contained and the zerg will double expo after pinning you in. Sure you can always move out and attack but that will start a base race scenario and far far more often than not the Zerg will win the base race.
Im only diamond but here's a replay of me playing against a zerg who focused on being 2 base
http://drop.sc/86353
At the end I knew my main was lost but I also killed most of his mutas leaving primarily zerglings. I cannoned my natural and he couldn't do anything to win the game and he ended up leaving with a GG.
My forge was late, I lost track of upgrades and I should have had better pylon spread in my main so that nydus wouldn't get up but even with those biggest mistakes I was able to hold off the Zerg who maxed out on muta ling, and I was able to force some roaches early on to boot which helped me in the long run.
If I didn't have that third base I wouldn't have been able to afford as much tech and as many stalkers as I did. There were moments where I didn't have enough gas to really make all that I wanted either.
Also, to those better than me, as always if I am giving bad advice or am completely wrong please let me know, thanks.
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On January 08 2012 05:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Also, to those better than me, as always if I am giving bad advice or am completely wrong please let me know, thanks.
I'm not one of those 
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On January 08 2012 03:35 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 22:29 ZeromuS wrote:On January 07 2012 21:37 Tobias wrote:On January 07 2012 19:23 Drowsy wrote:
What's the proper response to 2 base lair + spine crawlers in PVZ when you FFE and open with something like 4 warpgate zealot pressure? This is an obvious tell he's going to go muta off 2 base. Obviously you just back your zealots and voids if he's got lots of crawlers and no third, but what's the best way to follow up? Twilight Council+Robo and do a timing attack with blink+immortal and +2 weapons? It seems like taking a third is really just never ever works here, which makes sense considering you're technically ahead unless you lose a lot to mutalisks. There's no point in taking a third if the zerg is staying on two bases. Get your blink, upgrades and your templar archives up, leave a few HTs and stalkers at each base to defend muta harass and roll him over. You may want to cannon up before leaving. To be fair, if you can take the third, at least try to. Its outlined in rsvp's guide found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788The reason being that a first small round of mutas probably can't kill the nexus and you need a lot of gas to defend mutalisk harass. They already spent a lot of money on a spine wall and thats going to limit how many lings they can send at you to kill your third. In terms of money, larva and overall economy. They can either rebuild the drones and have less larva for counters, or they can make zerglings and fall further behind in economy. Also, the point to taking the third is that it pressures the Zerg. Either into killing you or expanding himself. Since Muta/Ling is not very good in straight up engagements they need to invest a lot into killing you and if you hold you will likely win. If they try to double expand then you have time to get storm up which can really help to deal with mutalisks. Not sure, but isn't kcdc talking about a zerg doing a "proper" 3-base muta play? Of course there's nothing wrong with taking a third if you can do it safely, but it's really not necessary.
Yeah he's definitely talking about 3 base muta play, which is usually way more straightforward because you can do some damage with your zealot pressure and have a good 2+ minutes to prepare after your pressure. I experimented with it and blink, +2, and immortals seems to just totally crush it, not sure you even need to get storm and prepare for the long haul. Might as well end it asap.
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Hello guys, so with the beginning of this season i decided to start playing 1v1 s because 2v2 got too cheesy, im doing OK i think im now 27th placed in my division in the master league..
so yesterday i got smashed by 3 zergs while i took my third base, they just did mass roach of off 3 bases, i took my 3rd at 9:20... with 5-6 gates and a robo...
i like to play macro and dont like 2 base all-ins or such, what do you think is a good timing to put down the 3rd nexus? i know that its dependant on situation and map but can you give ma a tip? im doing well with tvp but im lacking with the timing in a zvp 
thank you
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Is there any thread with timings for things? If not, I have a few questions. Please DON'T guess.. I don't want to follow false timings.
-Reaper expand, when does the reaper get to your base on a average sized map.
-7 roach rush or some version of it. When does it arrive at your base
-6 pool. When does it arrive and how many zerglings.
-Dark templar in PvP(this isn't the ultra fast version. this is the safe version so you don't die to a 4gate)
-5-6 rax all in
-2 rax all in
-banshee with cloak
-banshee without cloak
Thanks! :D
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On January 08 2012 07:17 osmanic wrote:Hello guys, so with the beginning of this season i decided to start playing 1v1 s because 2v2 got too cheesy, im doing OK i think im now 27th placed in my division in the master league.. so yesterday i got smashed by 3 zergs while i took my third base, they just did mass roach of off 3 bases, i took my 3rd at 9:20... with 5-6 gates and a robo... i like to play macro and dont like 2 base all-ins or such, what do you think is a good timing to put down the 3rd nexus? i know that its dependant on situation and map but can you give ma a tip? im doing well with tvp but im lacking with the timing in a zvp thank you
It depends on if you FFE or gateway expand. If you gateway expand (which I favour) I suggest dropping the third when starting your first colossus (if you go 3-gate, nexus, gate, forge, robo when nexus finishes then bay asap). I try to get up 6 gates+robo fairly soon after expanding.
If you FFE I don't have any advice.
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On January 08 2012 07:27 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 07:17 osmanic wrote:Hello guys, so with the beginning of this season i decided to start playing 1v1 s because 2v2 got too cheesy, im doing OK i think im now 27th placed in my division in the master league.. so yesterday i got smashed by 3 zergs while i took my third base, they just did mass roach of off 3 bases, i took my 3rd at 9:20... with 5-6 gates and a robo... i like to play macro and dont like 2 base all-ins or such, what do you think is a good timing to put down the 3rd nexus? i know that its dependant on situation and map but can you give ma a tip? im doing well with tvp but im lacking with the timing in a zvp thank you It depends on if you FFE or gateway expand. If you gateway expand (which I favour) I suggest dropping the third when starting your first colossus (if you go 3-gate, nexus, gate, forge, robo when nexus finishes then bay asap). I try to get up 6 gates+robo fairly soon after expanding. If you FFE I don't have any advice.
Yeah i mostly go FFE, on maps like metalopolis i do 3 gate expand..
but thanks for your help dude
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On January 08 2012 07:20 Kluey wrote:
Is there any thread with timings for things? If not, I have a few questions. Please DON'T guess.. I don't want to follow false timings.
-Reaper expand, when does the reaper get to your base on a average sized map.
-7 roach rush or some version of it. When does it arrive at your base
-6 pool. When does it arrive and how many zerglings.
-Dark templar in PvP(this isn't the ultra fast version. this is the safe version so you don't die to a 4gate)
-5-6 rax all in
-2 rax all in
-banshee with cloak
-banshee without cloak
Thanks! :D
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400
Has quite a few timings that are very helpful
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EPT
