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On January 04 2012 09:17 TNK wrote:
Hello once again team liquid. I just got my early game pvt down with the MC 1 gate FE and now I need to work on my mid game. I have been facing mostly MMM and I am mainly losing due to the fact that they push before my colossus comes out. So my question is what is the best time to get my robo bay out vs MMM? Also Is it worth it to get a warp prism out after my observer if the Terran is macroing to harass him? Thank you for taking your time to read this.
It depends on safe you want to be. Some players get it right when the robo finishes but I'd suggest you make it when your observer reach their base. That way you can count their raxes and choose for yourself. You can normally tech colossus if he's going the standard 3rax into starport but if he has made like 4 he's probably going to be aggressive soon so it might be better to delay. Unless you have a ramp on shakuras or antiga which you can easily forcefield  Warp prisms are great but they are a bit hard to use in PvT, you have to use your army somewhere else to make sure his units won't just go and kill the zealots/warp prism instantly. If you don't the warp prism will only work once and then you will drop into a bunch of MM the next time.
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I honestly cannot take it anymore. I switched from Zerg to Protoss about a month ago. I was rolling Diamonds as Zerg and now im high plat as toss. Mutas are driving me literally insane and make me not even want to play this game. I leave 5-7 stalkers at main cannon nat and 3rd with 2-3 stalkers per there as well. And when I say cannon I mean like 3-5 cannons. I also immediately drop a templar archives and research blink as soon as I see mutas. Nothing is working. Im losing to it every single time. I know once I get storm I leave like 2 templar at each base and with cannon coverage im good. But Idk wtf im doing wrong. All of my opponents cannot have perfect muta control. What do?
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On January 05 2012 03:21 rehabthis wrote:
I honestly cannot take it anymore. I switched from Zerg to Protoss about a month ago. I was rolling Diamonds as Zerg and now im high plat as toss. Mutas are driving me literally insane and make me not even want to play this game. I leave 5-7 stalkers at main cannon nat and 3rd with 2-3 stalkers per there as well. And when I say cannon I mean like 3-5 cannons. I also immediately drop a templar archives and research blink as soon as I see mutas. Nothing is working. Im losing to it every single time. I know once I get storm I leave like 2 templar at each base and with cannon coverage im good. But Idk wtf im doing wrong. All of my opponents cannot have perfect muta control. What do?
on a ffe map go double stargate. skip warp gate and get +1 air attack. build only 1 zealot and 1 stalker, build 2 voids and 2 pheonix and then mass carriers..., the 2 voids and 2 pheonix will make the zerg not want to build mutas (if he does you can win since you already have +1 attack and you can pump 2 pheonix at a time... mass carriers and kill his 3rd. if he transistions hydras you kill him. the only time i lost he went mass corruptor ling... and i didn't scout his spyre and only saw his hydra den.... not saying this is your only option but it causes mutas not to be an issue
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On January 05 2012 03:33 Allred wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 03:21 rehabthis wrote:
I honestly cannot take it anymore. I switched from Zerg to Protoss about a month ago. I was rolling Diamonds as Zerg and now im high plat as toss. Mutas are driving me literally insane and make me not even want to play this game. I leave 5-7 stalkers at main cannon nat and 3rd with 2-3 stalkers per there as well. And when I say cannon I mean like 3-5 cannons. I also immediately drop a templar archives and research blink as soon as I see mutas. Nothing is working. Im losing to it every single time. I know once I get storm I leave like 2 templar at each base and with cannon coverage im good. But Idk wtf im doing wrong. All of my opponents cannot have perfect muta control. What do? on a ffe map go double stargate. skip warp gate and get +1 air attack. build only 1 zealot and 1 stalker, build 2 voids and 2 pheonix and then mass carriers..., the 2 voids and 2 pheonix will make the zerg not want to build mutas (if he does you can win since you already have +1 attack and you can pump 2 pheonix at a time... mass carriers and kill his 3rd. if he transistions hydras you kill him. the only time i lost he went mass corruptor ling... and i didn't scout his spyre and only saw his hydra den.... not saying this is your only option but it causes mutas not to be an issue
rehabthis, it would be good to post a replay. I don't agree with this post by Allred since it's specifically targetting a trend in PvZ and not really solid play (for example, it is quite likely you will be here next week with problems vs 3base roach). Without a replay, I would say if anything get a solid macro opener that allows you to scout. That way you can have economy and adapt quickly to what you see, it's pretty simple stuff.
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Whats the ideal followup to a 6 pool after you succesfully hold it? I've held several the last few days, both the variations with just the intial 6 lings and the type with several continuous larva rounds of lings coming at your base. I hold with minimal damage but am not quite sure how to make the zerg pay for it. Typical 4 gate is so late he has an expo and spines ready, and if I just expo he can drone freely for a long time.
(low masters toss)
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On January 05 2012 03:55 SethDrone wrote:
Whats the ideal followup to a 6 pool after you succesfully hold it? I've held several the last few days, both the variations with just the intial 6 lings and the type with several continuous larva rounds of lings coming at your base. I hold with minimal damage but am not quite sure how to make the zerg pay for it. Typical 4 gate is so late he has an expo and spines ready, and if I just expo he can drone freely for a long time.
(low masters toss)
Followup depends on how you open vs Zerg, edit your post to say how you open. Also, if you scout late and get a forge in response, you do different stuff vs if you held with 2 gates.
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What are the gas timings for protoss in general?
Also after i do a ffe into stargate opening what are my options after that?
How do i deal with drops in PvT? Drops are quite strong so often i end up with a smaller army and then the terran attacks my smaller army and im dead T_T.
Also i remember there being a guide for FFEing vs zerg, but i can't find it! Does somebody have the link? It was mostly variations of expanding depending on the pool timing.
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On January 05 2012 03:21 rehabthis wrote:
I honestly cannot take it anymore. I switched from Zerg to Protoss about a month ago. I was rolling Diamonds as Zerg and now im high plat as toss. Mutas are driving me literally insane and make me not even want to play this game. I leave 5-7 stalkers at main cannon nat and 3rd with 2-3 stalkers per there as well. And when I say cannon I mean like 3-5 cannons. I also immediately drop a templar archives and research blink as soon as I see mutas. Nothing is working. Im losing to it every single time. I know once I get storm I leave like 2 templar at each base and with cannon coverage im good. But Idk wtf im doing wrong. All of my opponents cannot have perfect muta control. What do?
It's possible that you are rushing tech too fast. The most important thing to do against mutas is to get a third up as quickly as possible while defending with blink stalkers and cannons. getting storm and blink on 2 bases will just spread you too thin as you won't have enough geysers to support it.
This is also a really good thread on playing against mutas. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788
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On Jan 4 2012 14:57 Guamshin wrote:
What are the gas timings for protoss in general?
Also after i do a ffe into stargate opening what are my options after that?
How do i deal with drops in PvT? Drops are quite strong so often i end up with a smaller army and then the terran attacks my smaller army and im dead T_T.
Also i remember there being a guide for FFEing vs zerg, but i can't find it! Does somebody have the link? It was mostly variations of expanding depending on the pool timing.
Keep your stalkers on separate hotkeys. Keep your stalkers on the edge where they would normally drop and keep your zealots/sentries at your natural. Keep your eyes on the minimap as much as you can so you can spot drops incoming and deter it. Two prong attacks can be extremely annoying if not handled properly with a split army 
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On January 05 2012 04:00 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 03:55 SethDrone wrote:
Whats the ideal followup to a 6 pool after you succesfully hold it? I've held several the last few days, both the variations with just the intial 6 lings and the type with several continuous larva rounds of lings coming at your base. I hold with minimal damage but am not quite sure how to make the zerg pay for it. Typical 4 gate is so late he has an expo and spines ready, and if I just expo he can drone freely for a long time.
(low masters toss) Followup depends on how you open vs Zerg, edit your post to say how you open. Also, if you scout late and get a forge in response, you do different stuff vs if you held with 2 gates.
13 gate, 14 gas, 15 pylon in the main. I generally drop my core even if I scout it and complete the walloff with a pylon or extra gate that I cancel once a zealot is out.
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I need a build order (With what units to build when too) I just started playung this game and are ok but i am losing alot. I need 3 protoss build''s to counter each race that will keep me well defended incase of a rush/harrass, and then a strong mid game to finish them off. I have been rushed and harrased almost every game. (Im ranked 70 silvr btw.)
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This may be an unimportant question but I want to ask anyway :D
I often see pro's on their stream make sure their main base has 16 probes mining minerals (3-6 in gas depending on build, usually 6), then they will change their rally to their natural. I'm wondering if 17 probes mining in main is possibly better, so when you pull a probe off line to build something, you'll still have the 2 probes/patch mining.
It seems like the 'best' (or most common) approach is 16 mining @ main, then 16 @ natural, then get to 20 mining each base. With the ideal probe count being 78 (20 for mining on 3base and 18 for 6 geysers total). Any thoughts on this?
It may be minutia, but I was a bit curious if there is an accepted ideal or something.
Thx
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On January 05 2012 09:06 ant885 wrote:
This may be an unimportant question but I want to ask anyway :D
I often see pro's on their stream make sure their main base has 16 probes mining minerals (3-6 in gas depending on build, usually 6), then they will change their rally to their natural. I'm wondering if 17 probes mining in main is possibly better, so when you pull a probe off line to build something, you'll still have the 2 probes/patch mining.
It seems like the 'best' (or most common) approach is 16 mining @ main, then 16 @ natural, then get to 20 mining each base. With the ideal probe count being 78 (20 for mining on 3base and 18 for 6 geysers total). Any thoughts on this?
It may be minutia, but I was a bit curious if there is an accepted ideal or something.
Thx
No one cares about one extra probe or not on minerals at this point in the game. Besides, your natural probably hasn't got 16 mineral probes yet, so having 15 probes in main and 10 in natural is better then 16 in main and 9 in natural.
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On January 05 2012 09:17 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:06 ant885 wrote:
This may be an unimportant question but I want to ask anyway :D
I often see pro's on their stream make sure their main base has 16 probes mining minerals (3-6 in gas depending on build, usually 6), then they will change their rally to their natural. I'm wondering if 17 probes mining in main is possibly better, so when you pull a probe off line to build something, you'll still have the 2 probes/patch mining.
It seems like the 'best' (or most common) approach is 16 mining @ main, then 16 @ natural, then get to 20 mining each base. With the ideal probe count being 78 (20 for mining on 3base and 18 for 6 geysers total). Any thoughts on this?
It may be minutia, but I was a bit curious if there is an accepted ideal or something.
Thx No one cares about one extra probe or not on minerals at this point in the game. Besides, your natural probably hasn't got 16 mineral probes yet, so having 15 probes in main and 10 in natural is better then 16 in main and 9 in natural.
Hmm, do you notice when pro's 1gate expand/ffe or something nowadays they usually keep boxing their main to check probe count, and when it's @ 16 they usually rally their main to natural mineral line?
I know you know quite a bit more than I, so maybe I'm just missing something X_X. Perhaps just the pro's I usually watch prefer to do it that way, than sending say half from their main to natural, and rallying main-main and nat-nat.
appreciate the help
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On January 05 2012 09:25 ant885 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:17 Geiko wrote:On January 05 2012 09:06 ant885 wrote:
This may be an unimportant question but I want to ask anyway :D
I often see pro's on their stream make sure their main base has 16 probes mining minerals (3-6 in gas depending on build, usually 6), then they will change their rally to their natural. I'm wondering if 17 probes mining in main is possibly better, so when you pull a probe off line to build something, you'll still have the 2 probes/patch mining.
It seems like the 'best' (or most common) approach is 16 mining @ main, then 16 @ natural, then get to 20 mining each base. With the ideal probe count being 78 (20 for mining on 3base and 18 for 6 geysers total). Any thoughts on this?
It may be minutia, but I was a bit curious if there is an accepted ideal or something.
Thx No one cares about one extra probe or not on minerals at this point in the game. Besides, your natural probably hasn't got 16 mineral probes yet, so having 15 probes in main and 10 in natural is better then 16 in main and 9 in natural. Hmm, do you notice when pro's 1gate expand/ffe or something nowadays they usually keep boxing their main to check probe count, and when it's @ 16 they usually rally their main to natural mineral line? I know you know quite a bit more than I, so maybe I'm just missing something X_X. Perhaps just the pro's I usually watch prefer to do it that way, than sending say half from their main to natural, and rallying main-main and nat-nat. appreciate the help
Maynarding vs rallying new workers to natural has already been talked about alot.
If you maynard to have as many workers in all bases, you'll be behind a little bit on minerals compared to rallying new workers. If you have a tight build that requires these extra minerals, then you shouldn't transfer workers (other then those >16). However, equalizing workers between bases will cause your main to not mine out so early, which is a nice mid game advantage.
But your initial question was regarding 17 workers vs 16 workers in main. I think most players (pros included) don't fucking care about 1 probe, but the "optimal" way to do it is to have 16 workers, and queue your prbe back to mining once it's done building.
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On January 05 2012 09:44 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 09:25 ant885 wrote:On January 05 2012 09:17 Geiko wrote:On January 05 2012 09:06 ant885 wrote:
This may be an unimportant question but I want to ask anyway :D
I often see pro's on their stream make sure their main base has 16 probes mining minerals (3-6 in gas depending on build, usually 6), then they will change their rally to their natural. I'm wondering if 17 probes mining in main is possibly better, so when you pull a probe off line to build something, you'll still have the 2 probes/patch mining.
It seems like the 'best' (or most common) approach is 16 mining @ main, then 16 @ natural, then get to 20 mining each base. With the ideal probe count being 78 (20 for mining on 3base and 18 for 6 geysers total). Any thoughts on this?
It may be minutia, but I was a bit curious if there is an accepted ideal or something.
Thx No one cares about one extra probe or not on minerals at this point in the game. Besides, your natural probably hasn't got 16 mineral probes yet, so having 15 probes in main and 10 in natural is better then 16 in main and 9 in natural. Hmm, do you notice when pro's 1gate expand/ffe or something nowadays they usually keep boxing their main to check probe count, and when it's @ 16 they usually rally their main to natural mineral line? I know you know quite a bit more than I, so maybe I'm just missing something X_X. Perhaps just the pro's I usually watch prefer to do it that way, than sending say half from their main to natural, and rallying main-main and nat-nat. appreciate the help Maynarding vs rallying new workers to natural has already been talked about alot. If you maynard to have as many workers in all bases, you'll be behind a little bit on minerals compared to rallying new workers. If you have a tight build that requires these extra minerals, then you shouldn't transfer workers (other then those >16). However, equalizing workers between bases will cause your main to not mine out so early, which is a nice mid game advantage. But your initial question was regarding 17 workers vs 16 workers in main. I think most players (pros included) don't fucking care about 1 probe, but the "optimal" way to do it is to have 16 workers, and queue your prbe back to mining once it's done building.
Ahh, I wasn't aware. That clear things up though.
Much thanks <3
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Right now in PvT I just macro up to 200/200 and basically a-move the terran player, my PvT is my best matchup because of this style. I wouldn't even call it a style really, it's just complete passivity until 200/200.
However because of this PvT has become quite boring and the games always extend for longer than they should. Are there any relatively easy 2 base timings I can use to exploit a Terran taking a faster third, or to exploit his lack of ghosts/vikings? And I'm guessing I shouldn't go into a game with the intent of doing a 2 base timing, and should do it when I scout a weakness. What weakness am I looking for in particular?
Sorry for the bajillion questions all at once.
I'm in platinum, by the way.
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My practice partner asekd me to help him practice against +1 7 gate without any tech. What's the optimal way execute that build? I tried going WG-tech and +1 attack after double gas then getting 2 Sentries whilst going up to 40 Probes then cutting them for good and add on all 6 Gates at the same time. I would hit at arround 8:30-9:00 I think. Is that a good timing?
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On January 05 2012 18:01 Tekakan wrote:
My practice partner asekd me to help him practice against +1 7 gate without any tech. What's the optimal way execute that build? I tried going WG-tech and +1 attack after double gas then getting 2 Sentries whilst going up to 40 Probes then cutting them for good and add on all 6 Gates at the same time. I would hit at arround 8:30-9:00 I think. Is that a good timing?
+1 7 gate without any tech sounds like he wants it off of an ffe. +1 7 gate off of an ffe without blink seems kind of strange.. most +1 7 gates will have blink and an obs. a 6 gate on the other hand won't have either and should hit a bit faster. off of a gateway expand, a 5 gate with no tech would make more sense. all these timings will have 6-8 sentries
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On January 05 2012 16:40 Kasovian wrote:
Right now in PvT I just macro up to 200/200 and basically a-move the terran player, my PvT is my best matchup because of this style. I wouldn't even call it a style really, it's just complete passivity until 200/200.
However because of this PvT has become quite boring and the games always extend for longer than they should. Are there any relatively easy 2 base timings I can use to exploit a Terran taking a faster third, or to exploit his lack of ghosts/vikings? And I'm guessing I shouldn't go into a game with the intent of doing a 2 base timing, and should do it when I scout a weakness. What weakness am I looking for in particular?
Sorry for the bajillion questions all at once.
I'm in platinum, by the way.
There should be openings when terran has no medivacs, no vikings, you successfully fended off a drop, he's getting greedy and going for a fast third, no ghosts, or he's behind on upgrades.
Most of the time thoiugh, it's when you have your obs on his army and you know you can beat it.
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EPT
