The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 151

On December 30 2011 11:11 Sweetness.751 wrote:
OK everyone if you can just bare with me. I have a question regarding Phoenix play in the PvP match-up and I would like peoples thoughts/discussion on the topic. I was hoping for responses from masters/GMs players since I am high masters myself and I have poured a lot of content into my post. I will also highlight my question fro clarity sake lol.

In the PvP match-up, blink stalkers were all the rage, and thus there was an issue with expanding against robo play. Taking one's natural proved difficult was was considered risky till very late in the game on 1 base. However the idea of expanding far away and doing a base trade scenario seemed to be the solution to the problem. This philosophy works very well in the ZvP match-up when Zerg goes Mutalisk, and was the major influence for the idea. I am considering doing the same thing for PvP with Phoenix play. I would expand as far away as possible from my base and my opponents base. My question is: Do any of you think it's worth the time to rigorously test my theory? Have any of you tried it?

Normally I have no problem 1 basing with Phoenix, but expanding seems to be an all but smooth transition. The problem lies in that Phoenix sink a lot of resources on 1 base. Usually expanding requires cutting units and probes for an extended period of time.. (Which I don't like) My goal is to create a more fluid transition. Specifically I would go gate-stargate-nexus-robo-gate. As I'm sure any Protoss that has done Phoenix play before, your ground army is significantly lacking, and so more gateways are necessary. However I have also found that not going robo afterwards can be very risky, since there is an obvious vulnerability to mass stalkers and DT play.

The problem lies in that once you get all these additional structures up, you hardly have the money to naturally afford a nexus. (hence the significant cutting of units/probes) As, in my opinion, the Phoenix is a very strong harass unit against Protoss, specifically because Protoss has a strong weakness vs light/air units. Unless one opens Stargate Phoenix, there is no natural protoss unit that is strong against such a threat (ie: the Banshee, Mutalisk, and Phoenix).

I strongly feel expanding far away will work for several reasons.

Disclaimer: This is assuming that your opponent is not doing a highly aggressive 1 base play, in which case expanding before the attack would be suicidal. In my opinion, any build with Sentries is a more passive strategy, since offensive Sentry use can rarely be the reason for death in PvP.

1.) The phoenix is more than capable with dealing with warp-ins because they are faster than Mutas and are ideal for picking off and negating isolated units.

2.) Stargate play does extremely well versus Robo play, which is the same for Mutalisk builds in ZvP.

3.) Because our initial expand is so far away, the fact that we still are above our ramp, along with the gateway warp-in nerfs in recent patches, means that a high ground advantage still remains at our main. So any army disadvantage can be overcome by abusing the ramp mechanic.

4.) If they attack the expansion with their full army, it allows our Phoenix to harass their main and also reciprocate economic damage.

5.) Sentries to defend your opponents ramp are countered by Phoenix, so indefinite forcefields will be a non-issue.

Sorry for the long post, but I just want to make it easier for everyone as to the rational behind my thought process.

On December 30 2011 21:51 Latedi wrote:


The reason you expand far away with blink against colossus is because you want to base trade if your opponent tries to attack you. The same goes for mutas. If you do the same with phoenixes you will obly be able to pick off some probes before you are out of energy and the huge army will then proceed to attack your main next. You kind have to have an army strong enough to take out your opponent's. This guide might also be able to help you http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296637

On December 29 2011 09:37 -y0shi- wrote:
I was laddering, I was doing fine, and I was finally having fun again, and then this happened:

http://uploaded.to/file/5m57s58q

PvZ Shakuras, I do some 4 Zealot 2 Stalker Push, I kill his 3rd, I miss his hidden expansion and I think Im far ahead, but he has mutas out and I retreat to my base. I sit there, turtle, get Archons, Storm, Cannon Up like an idiot..

after watching the replay I admit i misread the game, I thought I was ahead but I didnt know about his base in the upper right corner. So if he kills me now I guess I cant complain. But he doesnt and we play on and on til hes maxed on 33 mutas, I cannon up every base, Im maxed on Stalker/Archon/Templat, but it doesnt matter because he never engages. He just runs around and kills of everything til I finally basetrade.

The thing is, what can I do?! This is just so frustrating, all he doesi s run his stupid mutas around and I cantt do anything at all, I can never catch him...

Im seriously on the verge of punching a hole in the wall right now... Doubt im going to play sc2 again before hots is out, or Ill just 4 gate every single zerg I see... AGain, I admit i misread the game but it didnt even matter because he didnt kill me when he was ahead. I just dont know what I can do there really...

On January 01 2012 12:45 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
What do you guys think of 2base colossus versus Marine Tank Banshee All-in?

On January 01 2012 15:25 ThePianoDentist wrote:
hi, for maps with open naturals like metalopolis after 1 gate expoing what kind of nice 2 base timing can I hit that isnt too vulnerable to a 1 rax fe into either 4 rax stim timing or 3 rax +1 weapons stim timing, can i get collosi out in time for these timings? and if im cutting probes at say just over 40 how many gates should i have with my 2 base collosi timing? (usually play more macro so unsure)

also do people remember what time these builds hit and after scouting with obs can decide how to play?

On January 01 2012 17:09 Bao wrote:
I'm starting to play SC2 again after a long break. Could anyone recommend me a build for PvP? I'm looking just for a 1 or 2 base timing attack. I don't enjoy the matchup and I'd rather just get it over with lol

Diamond protoss thanks!

On January 01 2012 22:45 Tobias wrote:
BL+Infestor are best countered by blink stalkers and high templars, while colossi in the back handles the broodlings. Blink underneath the brood lords and pick them off, feedback the infestors, then you can merge into archons when out of energy.

On January 01 2012 22:30 Nyast wrote:
I'm pretty good in PvZ and I can usually handle mutas fine, but sometimes I'm mind-boggled by how to handle a Zerg that transitions out of mutas into Brood Lords in end game..

The problem is the following: after he loses all his mutas, he replaces them with Brood Lords and infestors. He makes a ton ( and I really mean a ton ) of crawlers in front of his expos. Like 30-40 of them. There's no way I can push or base trade with him. I'd need tons of colossi to handle that many crawlers, and colossi aren't too good vs BL obviously..

I guess I could handle the BL + infestors with MS + archons, but I have no solution for that mass of crawlers. Any idea ?

On January 02 2012 07:59 ThePianoDentist wrote:
just my lowly opinion but once you let the zerg get broodlord infestor up before you've prepared for it it's already gg. you need to be aware of his timing for getting broodlords out, when you scout greater spire you either need to attack him before broodlords...or have fleet beacon building

On January 02 2012 08:13 xlava wrote:


Well sure, you have to anticipate the eventual switch to hive tech units. Most Zergs don't go Ultras because they're generally bad, so you have to expect Brood Lords 99% of the time. Generally, some time around when I am starting to get maxed, and take a 4th and a 5th, I'll throw down 3 stargates and a dark shrine if I haven't already. Make sure to scout well with an obs or warp prism, and once you see the brood tech switch, immediately start pumping void rays, and don't forget shield ups and attack ups for air. I'll often triple forge in some situations just to get upgrades that much quicker, because they really are that important.

I wouldn't try and attack them before broodlords, because generally that won't work. They should have a huge roach infestor army, or have been harassing the crap out of you with muta ling. Attacking, killing some spines, maybe a base or two while he runs mutas and lings and decimates all your infrastructure will leave you with a half-assed army as his broods are morphing, then he can sacrifice his harass units, pump broodlords and you lose.

No, I would wait and try to win the 200/200 army battle. Also, don't forget mothership, it is incredibly useful and should allow you to win that battle. If you attack fast enough, he shouldn't have enough time to remax.

On January 02 2012 08:38 Latedi wrote:


Voidrays are still great against ultras so if he goes hive they are a win/win situation I don't think any zerg gets hive for upgrades only, or at least I haven't seen it. And as for engaging, It's great to hit a timing before the broodlords are out regardless of what strategy he's doing. If you can engage a infestor roach army with sentry stalker colossus you sohuld be able to kill off a lot of it with few losses. If your engagement is good at least, with proper forcefields, blink and prevention of fungals. Sometimes you can even kill the zerg at this point. And as for muta/ling you should have attacked before this happens. If you have 6+ cannons and a HT or two per base I see no reason at all to not move out and get aggressive.