EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 152
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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whistle
United States141 Posts
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ArkSC
128 Posts
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Geiko
France2034 Posts
On January 03 2012 17:47 Overlord17 wrote: hey guys. I'm a top gold protoss player, just switched over from terran. Will someone tell me one build for each match up that i could use that is good? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266786 You can also check out all the builds in the recommended threads. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On January 02 2012 08:04 Geiko wrote: Most important thing in PvZ is spotting the hive timing. Hive should always signal you to get a stargate. Void rays or mothership or both are the correct response to infestor/broodlord. No offense to you, or all others who replied to my post.. but my issue isn't with infestor/BL. I can handle that fine, provided I scouted it in time. No, the problem here is the spines wall, and nobody addressed that. I can prism-harass but it'll only go so far. I can base trade through the front, but I'll lose half my army to his spines wall while he destroys my bases faster ( remember: this comes out of mutas harass. So my army compo will be stalkers/templars/archons heavy. I have nothing to attack the spines out of range ). I can recall in his main, but he'll bade trade, and I'll still have no answer to his 30 spines. And he'll probably remake hatches everywhere too. So prism-harass and recall is out/not efficient, and pushing into his spines wall without mass colossi is suicide. So I have two solutions: - go mass colossi, which will be countered by his air play ( he already has corruptors and BLs ) - go mass air, voidray style, which will be countered by his infestors ( fungal + infested terrans ), or he'll simply continue on corruptors/mutas which are already better upgraded.. So let's talk about a little scenario: I'm in the mid-game, handling mutas harass with blink stalkers and templars, and with my obs I see hive starting and tons of spines in front of his expos. How do I react ? | ||
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chivs688
25 Posts
 So I'm a silver protoss and was just thinking about builds and what I want to start doing, since I've just stuck with the 4-gate through bronze to get used to the game etc., and was wondering if someone could let me know if I'm on the right sort of trail of thought and whether a build like this exists. Feel free to tell me I'm talking rubbish if I am. I've been thinking about PvZ. The vast majority of games vs Zerg for me have been a few Lings early on and then just a mass of Roaches throughout most of the game, which then usually progresses into adding Hydras. Now I see that pretty much every PvZ build suggested is an early expansion build of some kind, so I'm guessing that's the main way to start of PvZ. Where I've been thinking is that it seems to me to be ideal to get a Stargate and get some Void Rays out early which would destroy the roaches and lings as they can't hit it. Then I would guess that he would get up the Hydra's, which normally happens anyways but if he's seen the Void Rays then I believe Hydra's are the basic counter, at which point I would have a Robo and could get some Colossi out to deal with them, as I believe Colossus is the counter to Hydra's. Just seems to me like the ideal way to deal with this Zerg play in the lower leagues which is pretty much all I come across. So I may have been talking rubbish and my thinking is wrong, but if I'm right then is there a current build that exists for this that I could use? Or something better that I should be doing? Thanks, Chivs. | ||
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Geiko
France2034 Posts
On January 03 2012 22:14 Nyast wrote: No offense to you, or all others who replied to my post.. but my issue isn't with infestor/BL. I can handle that fine, provided I scouted it in time. No, the problem here is the spines wall, and nobody addressed that. I can prism-harass but it'll only go so far. I can base trade through the front, but I'll lose half my army to his spines wall while he destroys my bases faster ( remember: this comes out of mutas harass. So my army compo will be stalkers/templars/archons heavy. I have nothing to attack the spines out of range ). I can recall in his main, but he'll bade trade, and I'll still have no answer to his 30 spines. And he'll probably remake hatches everywhere too. So prism-harass and recall is out/not efficient, and pushing into his spines wall without mass colossi is suicide. So I have two solutions: - go mass colossi, which will be countered by his air play ( he already has corruptors and BLs ) - go mass air, voidray style, which will be countered by his infestors ( fungal + infested terrans ), or he'll simply continue on corruptors/mutas which are already better upgraded.. So let's talk about a little scenario: I'm in the mid-game, handling mutas harass with blink stalkers and templars, and with my obs I see hive starting and tons of spines in front of his expos. How do I react ? Mass spines / offensive spines is a very late game strategy. You can't deny a 4th or a 5th with mass spines. By the time he has transitionned out of his muta ling harass into broodlord-infestor you should transition yourself into late game pvz which is mothership/carrier/void rays. In your scenario, you use your blink stalker/ ht army to secure a 4th, and you start getting stargates with voids + mothership at first, defending with archon toilet, then start sprinkling some cariers into the mix. You can also skip the late game all together if you see that his muta harass was inefective, chronoboost 4 or 5 immortals and break his front. Not saying it is easy though. If you haven't harassed at all during the game, chances are he'll be on 7 bases before you finish your 4th and things will be very tough, whatever the unit composition. | ||
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Geiko
France2034 Posts
On January 04 2012 00:14 chivs688 wrote: Silver player thinking about strategy here..uh oh So I'm a silver protoss and was just thinking about builds and what I want to start doing, since I've just stuck with the 4-gate through bronze to get used to the game etc., and was wondering if someone could let me know if I'm on the right sort of trail of thought and whether a build like this exists. Feel free to tell me I'm talking rubbish if I am. I've been thinking about PvZ. The vast majority of games vs Zerg for me have been a few Lings early on and then just a mass of Roaches throughout most of the game, which then usually progresses into adding Hydras. Now I see that pretty much every PvZ build suggested is an early expansion build of some kind, so I'm guessing that's the main way to start of PvZ. Where I've been thinking is that it seems to me to be ideal to get a Stargate and get some Void Rays out early which would destroy the roaches and lings as they can't hit it. Then I would guess that he would get up the Hydra's, which normally happens anyways but if he's seen the Void Rays then I believe Hydra's are the basic counter, at which point I would have a Robo and could get some Colossi out to deal with them, as I believe Colossus is the counter to Hydra's. Just seems to me like the ideal way to deal with this Zerg play in the lower leagues which is pretty much all I come across. So I may have been talking rubbish and my thinking is wrong, but if I'm right then is there a current build that exists for this that I could use? Or something better that I should be doing? Thanks, Chivs. You're basically right about the dynamic in PvZ. However, stargate void rays + phoenix will be defended by good zergs without hydras (queens + spores). Only double stargate builds force hydras most of the time. Now the problem with doublr stargate is that you are comitting a lot of ressources to early air harass, and you HAVE to do damage with it to not be behind in the late game. Double stargate is therefore seen as a bit cheesy in this matchup, which is why you won't find a guide on it on TL ( I think ) If you're looking for guides/builds with 1 stargate harass, I wrote a discussion thread a while ago that you should find when searching for oGsMC's FFE (bit outdated but should still work fine in the lower leagues). There are also a couple of good stargate openings in the thread "PvZ of Gods" The robo transition -> colossi is good/mandatory if Z defended with hydras. | ||
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chivs688
25 Posts
On January 04 2012 01:06 Geiko wrote: You're basically right about the dynamic in PvZ. However, stargate void rays + phoenix will be defended by good zergs without hydras (queens + spores). Only double stargate builds force hydras most of the time. Now the problem with doublr stargate is that you are comitting a lot of ressources to early air harass, and you HAVE to do damage with it to not be behind in the late game. Double stargate is therefore seen as a bit cheesy in this matchup, which is why you won't find a guide on it on TL ( I think ) If you're looking for guides/builds with 1 stargate harass, I wrote a discussion thread a while ago that you should find when searching for oGsMC's FFE (bit outdated but should still work fine in the lower leagues). There are also a couple of good stargate openings in the thread "PvZ of Gods" The robo transition -> colossi is good/mandatory if Z defended with hydras. Thanks for the reply. I'm really liking the look of MC's FFE. Doesn't seem too complicated to do, and seems like it would be nice and safe. The Void ray Sentry drop one in the other thread does seem really good but not sure I would be able to execute it well at the moment. So would I be good doing the MC FFE for my PvZ matchups then? That leaves me with Terran (using this PvP Stronger 4 Gate for my PvP, is that a decent choice?). I have no clue what to do for PvT. My results in the matchup have been pretty random while using the 4 Gate build above, and what usually happens when I lose is either pretty early in the mid-game when he rolls up with a ton of Marines and Marauders, or then a little later when he adds tanks to the mix and just sieges up outside my base with Siege Tanks behind the MM and just flattens me :/. So I'm looking for a proper PvT build that I can use for this matchup. Any suggestions/tips? Thanks, Chivs. | ||
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Geiko
France2034 Posts
You can then move on to popular styles such as the 11 gate 3 gate (thread by alejandrisha), or anything else (check the recommanded threads thread). PvT i recommend a safe 2 gate robo opening (i think cecilsunkure's got a guide on that), and then some variation of 1 gate FE when you get more confortable (check MC's 1 gate FE (thread from NrGmonk) or kcdc's 1 gate FE | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13418 Posts
On January 04 2012 03:23 Geiko wrote: In PvP I wouldn't recommend any type of 4 gating (you should know how to 4 gate though, so it's never a bad idea to practise 4 gate). I would recommend one of my own builds (shameless self promotion, I might change my name to geikoSC and start a youtube channel) which you can find searching "safe pvp defensive 3 gate" and use up to master. Very safe against anything in the early game. You can then move on to popular styles such as the 11 gate 3 gate (thread by alejandrisha), or anything else (check the recommanded threads thread). PvT i recommend a safe 2 gate robo opening (i think cecilsunkure's got a guide on that), and then some variation of 1 gate FE when you get more confortable (check MC's 1 gate FE (thread from NrGmonk) or kcdc's 1 gate FE About the 11gate, what should I be doing if I see a 3 stalker rush or scout last on antiga and see he has stalkers but no zealots? Should I put the pylons down anyway? I always seem to lose the fight if he went 3 stalker rush. The 1z/1s isnt enough and the stalkers out dps at least one pylon before I get a warp in on the low ground. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On January 04 2012 04:46 ZeromuS wrote: About the 11gate, what should I be doing if I see a 3 stalker rush or scout last on antiga and see he has stalkers but no zealots? Should I put the pylons down anyway? I always seem to lose the fight if he went 3 stalker rush. The 1z/1s isnt enough and the stalkers out dps at least one pylon before I get a warp in on the low ground. the safe thing to do is steal gas and to not go through with the rush. by going through with it you have to make sure all of your timings are absolutely perfect. even then, if they spend their CB's on stalkers instead of wg, they should be able to handle it cost effectively | ||
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TNK
United States163 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13418 Posts
On January 04 2012 08:22 Alejandrisha wrote: the safe thing to do is steal gas and to not go through with the rush. by going through with it you have to make sure all of your timings are absolutely perfect. even then, if they spend their CB's on stalkers instead of wg, they should be able to handle it cost effectively Cool. Now here's my next question what the hell do I do post the 3 gate opening? I am completely clueless in PvP. Opening twilight robo I have lost to extended lance one base 2 collossus pushes (I expoed, maybe thats bad). I also lose to pheonixes and almost anything else that gets thrown at me. I seriously do not understand PvP :/ Im thinking I might try the pheonix build here on TL | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On January 04 2012 12:50 ZeromuS wrote: Cool. Now here's my next question what the hell do I do post the 3 gate opening? I am completely clueless in PvP. Opening twilight robo I have lost to extended lance one base 2 collossus pushes (I expoed, maybe thats bad). I also lose to pheonixes and almost anything else that gets thrown at me. I seriously do not understand PvP :/ Im thinking I might try the pheonix build here on TL take a look at this http://drop.sc/84340 i prefer robo into blink. if you see they're going robo blink, go ahead and expand but just keep an eye out for blink-ins. colossus after expand is pretty strong so i tend to do that when i'm pretty ahead i wouldn't transition into phoenix after 11gate. if it goes successfully, you're trading army for probes and force him to make more units than he needs and you don't want to go into something so fragile right after, i'd think | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
I follow what I read, get fast blink, secure a third base, get out archons. I do ALL of that and then get absolutely crushed by mutas lings banelings infestors at the 20 minute mark. GG from there. I have no hope. WTF am i doing wrong here, it is so frustrating because there are so many zergs at my mmr doing this. I can easily destroy the ones not opening muta. PLEASE HELP ME http://dl.dropbox.com/u/55611431/pvz.SC2Replay | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On January 04 2012 13:34 Mitchlew wrote: I can't for the life of me ever beat a zerg that goes mutalisks. Seriously no joke 100% loss rate. Diamond. I follow what I read, get fast blink, secure a third base, get out archons. I do ALL of that and then get absolutely crushed by mutas lings banelings infestors at the 20 minute mark. GG from there. I have no hope. WTF am i doing wrong here, it is so frustrating because there are so many zergs at my mmr doing this. I can easily destroy the ones not opening muta. PLEASE HELP ME http://dl.dropbox.com/u/55611431/pvz.SC2Replay Before I watch this replay, did you read this? | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
Haven't seen looks like a good read, thanks. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
also another thing with pvz ffeing, theres always an issue where you get blocked on 18 supply unless you delay either nexus or cannon for second pylon. is it wise to save chronoboost until past that supply block, how do other protoss' deal with this supply block? | ||
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Rasera
Canada96 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:50 ThePianoDentist wrote: just had a game where he did an early pool when iw as ffeing on shattered temple. I had to make two cannons before nexus. in a scenario like this is it ever more economic to cut probe production to throw down nexus earlier, or should i just chrono probes until 400 mins. also another thing with pvz ffeing, theres always an issue where you get blocked on 18 supply unless you delay either nexus or cannon for second pylon. is it wise to save chronoboost until past that supply block, how do other protoss' deal with this supply block? Most FFE's open with a nexus at 17, and yes, probes do get cut. The concept is that the earlier nexus allows you to establish your 2nd base sooner, which in turns gets you more income faster, and results in more minerals overall compared to not cutting. If you save the chronos (personal preference is to have ~50 energy once the 2nd nexus finishes), you can chrono probes out of both bases. Especially if you built cannons early in order to prevent possible aggression, you want that nexus as soon as possible. Cutting probes will allow that. EDIT: I used a build order calculator for a FFE to 2 gas, 6 gate if you're looking for an idealized format (included in spoiler below); You can change it as to what best suits you, and it assumes 100% perfect macro. This is a cookie cutter build, but it shows the FFE portion well. + Show Spoiler + FFE 9 Pylon > Chrono Nexus at 100% 13 Forge and scout 16 Pylon† Cut probes at 17 17 Nexus 17 Gateway 17 Photon Cannon 17 Pylon† Resume probe production 21 Assimilator 21 Zealot / Photon Cannon†† 23 Cybernetics Core; Warpgate at 100% (Don't need to chrono) 23 Pylon 23 Zealot 25 2nd nexus should be finished around here (Constantly chrono nexus) 6 Gate 29 Assimilator 30 Zealot 35 Sentry 39 Ground Weapons Level 1 (one chrono) 40 Pylon 43 Gatewayx5 Warp-gate should finish right as these gates finish. +1 attack should finish right as the 2nd warp-in is finished. † The 16 supply pylon is in case you can't cover the full ramp with one pylon; skip it on choked naturals (ex: shakuras). Build it at 17 instead if skipping is the option. †† If you need the 2nd cannon, just skip the 1st zealot. You should, in theory, only have to cut probes at 17. | ||
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