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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On December 29 2011 10:22 chivs688 wrote:
Hi all.
I play Protoss, used to be high Silver before I stopped playing a couple of months ago due to not having much time to play, but am starting back up now.
Anyways, what I was wanting to ask was could someone provide me with 3 fundamental builds, one for each match up, (or something similar) which I can use for now to get up the early leagues and get going with the game. If you could have a link to each build's build order then I'd be very grateful as when I try to look up builds myself I seem to find about five variations of the same build and am not sure which is the most up to date one.
Thanks, Chivs.
here's something i put together for a friend.
go into custom games vs very easy cpu and just do the build a whole bunch of times and quit when you have finished it up to 7 mins or however long the basic build takes to do and try to execute them faster over time. along with getting builds down without thinking about them, you will improve your overall mechanics as well.
do this 3x (4gate PvP)
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
15 pylon
17 core
18 zealot
22 stalker / wg
24 gate (stop probes; you should have 20)
24 gate
24 gate
26 pylon (proxy)
24 stalker
4 stalkers
34 pylon
4 zealots
try to get your wg done as soon as possible with cb's. make a game out of it and keep trying to beat your best time.
do this 3x (1gate fe PvT)
9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas
15 pylon
17 core
22 stalker / wg
25 pylon
27 stalker (stop probes at 30 food; you should have 24
30 nexus (try to get it down as close to 4:50 as possible)
30 gateway
30 gateway
30 robo
do this 3x (3gate fe PvZ)
9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas
15 pylon
17 core
18 gas (2nd)
19 zealot
23 stalker
25 pylon
27 sentry
30 gateway
30 gateway
31 sentry
33 pylon (low ground! stop probes until you start nexus; you should have 24)
33 nexus (try to get it as close to 6:00 as possible. anything between 6:10-6:20 is fine, though)
33 pylon, sentries
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On December 29 2011 08:58 -MoOsE- wrote:
I got a couple of question in the PvT mu.
I am at mid masters for reference.
I want to know if I open 1 gate expo should I then proceed into collosus or just go up to 5 gate and double ups.
- if I stay on collosus should I have 4 gates and one forge?
- also how many stalkers should I make for the vikings if I only make 3 collsous and then switch to the ht
Thanks
It depends on what the terran does. If he opens with a gasless expand then you want 2 base 3 gate colossus. Get an observer then 2 immortals while your support bay builds. Chrono the range and push when range completes. Note that you probably wont be able to afford a forge, and you certainly dont have spare chrono for it. The reason for this is that if the terran opened gasless then his tech is delayed. If your observer sees that he already has a starport then he should only have 2 rax, and you already have your second immortal coming so just go and kill him. If he went up to 4 raxes then his starport will complete around the time your first colossus is out and he has to choose between medivacs and vikings.
If he opened with gas (2 rax expand etc) then you should not rush for colossi. He will not be as marine heavy so you can stay on immortals while you get forges going. Also, he can get a starport earlier.
I dont know about how many stalkers are best vs vikings. I would guess around 12 stalkers will be enough to cover your 3 colossus, since you are only trying to keep them alive long enough to kill the marines.
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It depends on what the terran does. If he opens with a gasless expand then you want 2 base 3 gate colossus. Get an observer then 2 immortals while your support bay builds. Chrono the range and push when range completes. Note that you probably wont be able to afford a forge, and you certainly dont have spare chrono for it. The reason for this is that if the terran opened gasless then his tech is delayed. If your observer sees that he already has a starport then he should only have 2 rax, and you already have your second immortal coming so just go and kill him. If he went up to 4 raxes then his starport will complete around the time your first colossus is out and he has to choose between medivacs and vikings.
If he opened with gas (2 rax expand etc) then you should not rush for colossi. He will not be as marine heavy so you can stay on immortals while you get forges going. Also, he can get a starport earlier.
I dont know about how many stalkers are best vs vikings. I would guess around 12 stalkers will be enough to cover your 3 colossus, since you are only trying to keep them alive long enough to kill the marines.[/QUOTE]
Also, when you go templar tech, off of an fe what is the building order normally go.
I go up to 4 gates and then add on 2 forges and then the twilight then take third, archives, robo bay, and more gates. Do you think this is a good tech choice
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Man. I'm just losing to mutaling or mass roach. I've pretty much figured out PvT and PvP (I still lose, but I know what I fucked up) but generally in pvz I feel coinflippy. Even moreso than pvp!!
What should I be looking for in scouting? Would it make sense to get super afst hallucination?
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On December 29 2011 14:14 -MoOsE- wrote:
It depends on what the terran does. If he opens with a gasless expand then you want 2 base 3 gate colossus. Get an observer then 2 immortals while your support bay builds. Chrono the range and push when range completes. Note that you probably wont be able to afford a forge, and you certainly dont have spare chrono for it. The reason for this is that if the terran opened gasless then his tech is delayed. If your observer sees that he already has a starport then he should only have 2 rax, and you already have your second immortal coming so just go and kill him. If he went up to 4 raxes then his starport will complete around the time your first colossus is out and he has to choose between medivacs and vikings.
If he opened with gas (2 rax expand etc) then you should not rush for colossi. He will not be as marine heavy so you can stay on immortals while you get forges going. Also, he can get a starport earlier.
I dont know about how many stalkers are best vs vikings. I would guess around 12 stalkers will be enough to cover your 3 colossus, since you are only trying to keep them alive long enough to kill the marines.
Also, when you go templar tech, off of an fe what is the building order normally go.
I go up to 4 gates and then add on 2 forges and then the twilight then take third, archives, robo bay, and more gates. Do you think this is a good tech choice[/QUOTE]
I am out of my comfort zone here, so a better player should give advice instead. But I retty much do it the same as you do.
I only go storm before colossi if I expect a high viking count. So, if the terran opens 2 rax expand into 3 rax medivacs, and I dont kill any medivacs then I probably wont go colossus since he may have vikings just waiting for them. So, on two bases it would probably be 3 gates, robo, 2 forges, 4th gate, twilight and templar. I would not add a robo support bay until I had a third base operational, and I would probably try to have 8 gatways up before I finish saturating the third, and make sure I have a second robo before thermal lance finishes.
Summary of building order:
1 gate expand > 2 more gates > robo
2 forges
4th gateway
Twilight then templar
nexus
4 more gateways
colossus tech and 2nd robo
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On December 29 2011 15:30 Froadac wrote:
Man. I'm just losing to mutaling or mass roach. I've pretty much figured out PvT and PvP (I still lose, but I know what I fucked up) but generally in pvz I feel coinflippy. Even moreso than pvp!!
What should I be looking for in scouting? Would it make sense to get super afst hallucination?
I am in the same boat 
Fast hallucination is not an option as you need to get warp gate first. Even if you did get halluc before wg, your sentry wont have enough energy anyway. The best thing is to get a fast robo for an obs (or warp prism). FFE into stargate also gives you scouting.
In terms of what to look for: if he is going muta then he is banking huge amounts of gas. Scout how many extractors he has. If he is mining them all then look where the gas is going. The best tell is upgrades: is he spending his gas at evo chambers and on roaches? If not then plan for mutas (there is a detaild threas all about protoss vs mutas on this forum).
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If you play Protoss in a serious manner, your most difficult matchup will in all likelihood be vs. Terran. To try to look at things from a fair perspective, I'd have to say the most difficult matchup in SC2 is being a Protoss fighting against a Terran. You really have to take the initiative to swing things in your favor, because on equal bases, Terran wins, as far as harassment goes, Terran is far better at harassing and Protoss is bad at defending without dumping money into defense blindly or investing in a costly research that helps more in harass defense than combat effectiveness, and overall Terran is just far more mobile, even though some people might look at things like Warpgates and Warp Prism and think differently, Bio w/Stim, as well as Medivac, make Terran extremely mobile. Also, if you play Protoss you will likely be gimped on the detection. Ravens and Missile Turrets do fine in detection, but since the metagame demands that in almost all cases Terran CCs bc Orbitals, Terran is pretty much certain to have a scan ready in a pinch for detection (observer snipes, etc) so much that a lot of Terrans semi-routinely scan right on top of their main army just to try to catch and snipe and obs. As for Protoss, you have to be VERY careful with your observers, because while they are invisible, all they do is detect; they aren't ravens. And if a Terran is bio with Ghost-heavy, you can bet your ass when he pushes you he's going to cut MULEs for a bit to save up energy for scans so he can snipe your obs and let his ghosts EMP your HTs and everything else, for that matter. PvP is very easy, and PvZ is challenging without feeling odd or lopsided, just different. But if you are roflstomping Terrans and getting crushed by P and Z on a regular basis, you're either in a pretty low league or you just need to work on the basics. Protoss is a good race, and can compete with Zerg pretty damn well if both players are on point and play hard, it's just that in most major tournaments with lots of players, the T players tend to eliminate the P players as they run into them, which is why you see a lot of T and Z running around. A lot of Protoss players are trying new things though; some are using Warp Prisms to do some light harassment and warpins to try to keep the Terran near his base and buy time to secure an extra expansion, and others are just being outright ballsy and going Nexus first (often blindly) because if it pays off, it generally ends up being a more or less even game. PvP is just PvP, you just have to play it a lot and realize how the metagame works there. PvT, I would suggest trying to go for a very early robo (and probe scouting wicked early to try to see if he has gas or not before he walls in so you can react) and then do what you can, and PvZ most people either FFE and go from there or if they stay 1 base, they go quick air and harass while they take an expand, so it ends up being a form of fast expand anyway, it just fucks with Z timing a little bit more.
BTW - 1 Gate expand is great at Masters, GM, tournaments, and the like - but if you are a relatively low-level player, make sure that your probe gets into his base and you see what's going on before you throw down your Nexus, or else you might end up getting totally wrecked. The ladder works in weird ways. With nothing on the line (not even reputation at low levels) there are guys that proxy rax and 1-1-1 literally every single game, and generally bring 70% of their SCVs with them on their first attack. Obviously 1 gate expand doesn't fare well vs. this unless you are godly with Sentries, which you probably aren't.
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On December 29 2011 15:30 Froadac wrote:
Man. I'm just losing to mutaling or mass roach. I've pretty much figured out PvT and PvP (I still lose, but I know what I fucked up) but generally in pvz I feel coinflippy. Even moreso than pvp!!
What should I be looking for in scouting? Would it make sense to get super afst hallucination?
Do you have any replays? Personally I shun the FFE against zerg as I need some early units in order to play against zerg. I go for a 3-gate expand instead massing sentries which gives me a decently fast expo plus some units to pressure with. I always get hallucination straight after WG, as I already have a bunch of sentries and I can constantly scout. Having a bunch of units fast that I can stay active with I can force the zerg to produce units instead of drones, delaying his mutas and generally putting him behind.
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Hi!
I have been wondering lately if I should change my hotkey setup as protoss, I currently use 1-6 as following:
1,2,3 - Army
4 - All my nexus
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Observer
I have seen most protoss players use about the same amount of hotkeys, however I have seen HerO use all of his. I want to use all my hotkeys also but I just can't really figure out what would the best setup be, what should I use the rest of them for?
I was thinking something like:
1,2,3 - Army
4 - Robotics/Stargate
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Observer/Warp prism
7 - Observer/Warp prism
8 - All nexus
9 - Main nexus
0 - All warpgates
I don't know if this is any good, I want feedback or your guys thoughts, what would you do if you used all protoss hotkeys?!
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On December 29 2011 20:28 eYeball wrote:
Hi!
I have been wondering lately if I should change my hotkey setup as protoss, I currently use 1-6 as following:
1,2,3 - Army
4 - All my nexus
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Observer
I have seen most protoss players use about the same amount of hotkeys, however I have seen HerO use all of his. I want to use all my hotkeys also but I just can't really figure out what would the best setup be, what should I use the rest of them for?
I was thinking something like:
1,2,3 - Army
4 - Robotics/Stargate
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Observer/Warp prism
7 - Observer/Warp prism
8 - All nexus
9 - Main nexus
0 - All warpgates
I don't know if this is any good, I want feedback or your guys thoughts, what would you do if you used all protoss hotkeys?!
Hotkeys are very personal and it's hard to use someone elses. I'd recommend you to put your nexuses on a hotkey closer to E though unless you plan on rebinding. You don't really need your main nexus on a separate hotkey either, try using camera locations. Warpgates also only needs a hotkey if youu don't use W.
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HOw do you guys handle those new maps for PVZ? I forgot their name, but one has a natural with two chokes so hard to FFE, and the other has one really large CHOKE. Have you guys been successfully FFEing ont hose maps? Or, how do you handle them? By Vetoing? =P
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On December 29 2011 20:40 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 20:28 eYeball wrote:
Hi!
I have been wondering lately if I should change my hotkey setup as protoss, I currently use 1-6 as following:
1,2,3 - Army
4 - All my nexus
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Observer
I have seen most protoss players use about the same amount of hotkeys, however I have seen HerO use all of his. I want to use all my hotkeys also but I just can't really figure out what would the best setup be, what should I use the rest of them for?
I was thinking something like:
1,2,3 - Army
4 - Robotics/Stargate
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Observer/Warp prism
7 - Observer/Warp prism
8 - All nexus
9 - Main nexus
0 - All warpgates
I don't know if this is any good, I want feedback or your guys thoughts, what would you do if you used all protoss hotkeys?!
Hotkeys are very personal and it's hard to use someone elses. I'd recommend you to put your nexuses on a hotkey closer to E though unless you plan on rebinding. You don't really need your main nexus on a separate hotkey either, try using camera locations. Warpgates also only needs a hotkey if youu don't use W.
I already use camera hotkeys, and warpgate for cooldown if needing some chronoboost. I was thinking more personal answer then general what to do and not. Thanks anyway!
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On December 29 2011 21:30 MooSlapper wrote:
HOw do you guys handle those new maps for PVZ? I forgot their name, but one has a natural with two chokes so hard to FFE, and the other has one really large CHOKE. Have you guys been successfully FFEing ont hose maps? Or, how do you handle them? By Vetoing? =P
I feel FFE is great on Emtombed Valley (new 4 player map). I can't really understand what problems people have with going FFE on that map. Maybe it's because I wall off the bottom ramp and start the wall with my first Pylon so I don't feel vulnerable to anything except a 6-9 pool? I feel that FFE on that map is really strong as you can easily take a safe 3rd.
On any maps with huge area to cover at your natural I feel FFE is gamble that doesn't pay off for me since I have to invest more in cannons and buildings to be safe against all early game Zerg pressure. Therefor I try to go for either a 1 Gate SG expand or a 3 Gate expand on Metalopolis, Xel'Naga, Shattered Temple and Arid Plateau(new 2 player map). The important part with playing the second style is that you have be more active on beeing aggressive after securing your natural. You can do this with say a 1 Zealot, 6 Sentry, 6 Stalker poke at the Zerg third off the 3 Gate or just force some extra units with your SG play by making 1-2 VR and some Phoenix. After that you have be more reactive to what the Zerg is doing compared to a FFE build. Therefor I always suggest that once you've gotten your expansion up, 3 Gateways and Forge + Cannon you kind of need Hallucination from there on or keep your Phoenix alive if you open SG and be active with scouting the Zerg. It's much easier to lose by getting out macroed or choosing the wrong tech path when playing this opening compared to FFE.
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On December 29 2011 22:05 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 20:40 Latedi wrote:On December 29 2011 20:28 eYeball wrote:
Hi!
I have been wondering lately if I should change my hotkey setup as protoss, I currently use 1-6 as following:
1,2,3 - Army
4 - All my nexus
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Observer
I have seen most protoss players use about the same amount of hotkeys, however I have seen HerO use all of his. I want to use all my hotkeys also but I just can't really figure out what would the best setup be, what should I use the rest of them for?
I was thinking something like:
1,2,3 - Army
4 - Robotics/Stargate
5 - Robotics/Stargate
6 - Observer/Warp prism
7 - Observer/Warp prism
8 - All nexus
9 - Main nexus
0 - All warpgates
I don't know if this is any good, I want feedback or your guys thoughts, what would you do if you used all protoss hotkeys?!
Hotkeys are very personal and it's hard to use someone elses. I'd recommend you to put your nexuses on a hotkey closer to E though unless you plan on rebinding. You don't really need your main nexus on a separate hotkey either, try using camera locations. Warpgates also only needs a hotkey if youu don't use W. I already use camera hotkeys, and warpgate for cooldown if needing some chronoboost. I was thinking more personal answer then general what to do and not. Thanks anyway!
I don't think anyone can give you that advice though. For example you could like to have zealots on 2 and stalkers on 1 while others would use the opposite, it just comes down to what feels the best for you.
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Man :/ I feel like I'm not improving.
I screw up just about everything
My PvT is OK, but I don't get many. PvP I have above 50% winrate, but it's all four gate, and I'm not good at four gating on maps like Tal Darim. Always lose ;( What is a good four gate for maps where 3 stalker rush no work?
PvZ I generally lose just because mutas are good, and I often fail to hit timings early enough.
Also, I need to figure out a hotkey setup for protoss. All the spells are getting mixed up (especially guardian shield, storm, feedback, blink etc)
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On December 30 2011 04:35 Froadac wrote:Man :/ I feel like I'm not improving. I screw up just about everything My PvT is OK, but I don't get many. PvP I have above 50% winrate, but it's all four gate, and I'm not good at four gating on maps like Tal Darim. Always lose ;( What is a good four gate for maps where 3 stalker rush no work?
4-gates aren't very good since the pylon nerf. You could try the 11-gate into 3 gate pressure, or just go 3-gate+robo and play a longer game.
PvZ I generally lose just because mutas are good, and I often fail to hit timings early enough.
You probably lose because you don't pressure the zerg enough, allowing him to get his economy booming. It's not about killing him as quickly as possible.
Also, I need to figure out a hotkey setup for protoss. All the spells are getting mixed up (especially guardian shield, storm, feedback, blink etc)
They will always be on the same keys, you just need to practice your awareness. If you've got your sentries active and hit Z (yeah i use grid) you'll FF, if you've got HTs active you'll feedback. Just keep an eye on what unit you have active.
Grab a few replays, analyze them yourself, and then post them in help-threads for some feedback.
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"Apply pressure at appropriate times"
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On December 30 2011 05:36 Froadac wrote:
"Apply pressure at appropriate times"
It's appropriate all the time, that's the thing. You need to keep constant pressure on the zerg to force him to make units instead of drones. Take out his creep tumours, do a few fly-bys with warp prisms, take the towers and so on. Move around the map constantly threatening an attack.
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OK everyone if you can just bare with me. I have a question regarding Phoenix play in the PvP match-up and I would like peoples thoughts/discussion on the topic. I was hoping for responses from masters/GMs players since I am high masters myself and I have poured a lot of content into my post. I will also highlight my question fro clarity sake lol.
In the PvP match-up, blink stalkers were all the rage, and thus there was an issue with expanding against robo play. Taking one's natural proved difficult was was considered risky till very late in the game on 1 base. However the idea of expanding far away and doing a base trade scenario seemed to be the solution to the problem. This philosophy works very well in the ZvP match-up when Zerg goes Mutalisk, and was the major influence for the idea. I am considering doing the same thing for PvP with Phoenix play. I would expand as far away as possible from my base and my opponents base. My question is: Do any of you think it's worth the time to rigorously test my theory? Have any of you tried it?
Normally I have no problem 1 basing with Phoenix, but expanding seems to be an all but smooth transition. The problem lies in that Phoenix sink a lot of resources on 1 base. Usually expanding requires cutting units and probes for an extended period of time.. (Which I don't like) My goal is to create a more fluid transition. Specifically I would go gate-stargate-nexus-robo-gate. As I'm sure any Protoss that has done Phoenix play before, your ground army is significantly lacking, and so more gateways are necessary. However I have also found that not going robo afterwards can be very risky, since there is an obvious vulnerability to mass stalkers and DT play.
The problem lies in that once you get all these additional structures up, you hardly have the money to naturally afford a nexus. (hence the significant cutting of units/probes) As, in my opinion, the Phoenix is a very strong harass unit against Protoss, specifically because Protoss has a strong weakness vs light/air units. Unless one opens Stargate Phoenix, there is no natural protoss unit that is strong against such a threat (ie: the Banshee, Mutalisk, and Phoenix).
I strongly feel expanding far away will work for several reasons.
Disclaimer: This is assuming that your opponent is not doing a highly aggressive 1 base play, in which case expanding before the attack would be suicidal. In my opinion, any build with Sentries is a more passive strategy, since offensive Sentry use can rarely be the reason for death in PvP.
1.) The phoenix is more than capable with dealing with warp-ins because they are faster than Mutas and are ideal for picking off and negating isolated units.
2.) Stargate play does extremely well versus Robo play, which is the same for Mutalisk builds in ZvP.
3.) Because our initial expand is so far away, the fact that we still are above our ramp, along with the gateway warp-in nerfs in recent patches, means that a high ground advantage still remains at our main. So any army disadvantage can be overcome by abusing the ramp mechanic.
4.) If they attack the expansion with their full army, it allows our Phoenix to harass their main and also reciprocate economic damage.
5.) Sentries to defend your opponents ramp are countered by Phoenix, so indefinite forcefields will be a non-issue.
Sorry for the long post, but I just want to make it easier for everyone as to the rational behind my thought process.
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I need a simple, easy to execute build for PvT for a high Platinum player. I'm currently clueless on what to do right now.
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EPT
