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On December 28 2011 23:55 GzStrom wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 18:04 Selendis wrote:
I played a PvZ earlier on Antiga Shipyard, I saw no pool so I went for nexus first FFE, I pull back my scouting probe to the corner of his third and lo and behold he is going for his third. I think to myself, "If he is sticking down his hatch now he cannot have afforded to have built his pool yet" so I plant down my third as well.
Long story short I end up slaughtering the poor zerg. But I actually don't know if I made a good decision or if i just got incredibly lucky (he was a league below me and he didn't spot my third until the 8minute mark).
Did I make the right decision?
Or should I stick to punishing such greed (like I have always done in the past) ? General rule of thumb I've found is if they pool 1st, go nexus 1st, they hatch 1st, go forge 1st & cannon to deny him a base. As for taking a quick 3rd like that, its very risky and I'm pretty sure it would lose to any well executed all in (roach/ling or roach/bane) as these allins are generally hard enough to hold on just 2 base for toss. Rather just cannon & go some sort of 2 base strat based on what you scout
cannon denying base is very risky because it relies on the zerg reacting poorly.
The guide to FFE is: if you scout him, nexus first for pool at 14 or later. if you have not scouted him, you must put down forge first in case he early pool.
Whether taking that early third is justified depends on the timing of his third. Did you check the replay? Did he really not have pool yet? Even so, roach spam will kill your base since you wont' have enough cannon coverage. Plus, if you make units to defend, you won't have enough probe to really exploit the extra mineral patches.
A very nice response to zerg early third is [G] FFE HerOic style here on TL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970
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Quochobao is correct in saying that it relies on a Zerg reacting poorly to a cannon rush to be succesful; although, you can trap a cannon (I know you can do this on tal darim) between the mineral patch and surround it by pylons (which is just a waste of minerals in the end).
My rules for FFE:
Scouted first position:
15 Hatch - Nexus First
12-15 Pool with/w/o gas - forge first
6 pool - Forge and pylon in base
No scout on first spot - forge definitely
If I don't scout them second (i'll have already put my forge down) i'll put a pylon in my base behind my mineral patch.
I think that about covers everything!
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In PvP, whats a good follow up against DT builds? Assuming I sensed it was coming, have 2-3 Gates, Robo, Twilight and took no damage really.
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On December 29 2011 00:17 eteran wrote:
In PvP, whats a good follow up against DT builds? Assuming I sensed it was coming, have 2-3 Gates, Robo, Twilight and took no damage really.
You mean against a DT rush? Just grab an observer or two, a bunch of stalkers and an immortal or two and go kill him. He's got no army.
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On December 28 2011 14:13 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 06:03 mizU wrote:On December 28 2011 05:53 eugalp wrote:
In PvT, if I scout double gas, should I add a second gas myself and get a stargate asap? I feel like with a 1 gas 30 food FE, I don't have nearly the amount of gas I need to get a proper unit composition to fight banshees (stalkers, obs, phoenixes). You only really need 3 stalkers in your mineral line to ward of banshees, and cloak will come late enough for you to have your observer, and have scouted it. Sounds like you're overreacting to banshees a bit. Perhaps I am overreacting but I was under the impression that fast double gas means they are probably going for a 2 port banshee or some kind of ski-terran build. In that case 3 stalkers will be nearly enough, especially since you need to cover 2 bases.
2 gas just means tech. Could be banshees, tanks, cloak, 1-1-1. To me it usually just means: get a fast observer.
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On December 28 2011 19:49 Latedi wrote:I think that's kind of risky as you will have to cover 2 bases with cannons. It can get quite expensive. What you can do is just drop a forge and cannon rush him for easy denial. Since he made no pool make sure the hatch finishes before the cannons does 
I figured that might be the case.
So I should definitely be agressive against greedy zergs. got it.
Thanks for your help and thanks to you other posters too. I'll definitely check out the Heroic FFE.
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On December 29 2011 00:26 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 00:17 eteran wrote:
In PvP, whats a good follow up against DT builds? Assuming I sensed it was coming, have 2-3 Gates, Robo, Twilight and took no damage really. You mean against a DT rush? Just grab an observer or two, a bunch of stalkers and an immortal or two and go kill him. He's got no army.
Be careful with that, unless you are sure he only made DTs or something. There are builds like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284319
Chargelot archons is the most common follow up so I recommend getting colossus and expanding when safe. This might seem stupid but I find it pretty good as he won't be able to harass you with blink and if you sim in your natural he won't be able to touch you. Getting DTs of your own is also a good idea if you scout him not having a robo with your observer.
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Hi all,
I just switched from Terran to Protoss(silver league champ, so it's not like I'm playing at extremely high levels  ), and after doing some research I found the thread with one basic opener for each race. My question though, however, is if there is one generic build vs all races that would help me improve my game, even if it's not the best for said individual race? I'm still learning the keybinds, building/unit costs, build times, abilities, etc., so I feel like one basic safe build would help me get used to it without completely winging it and bombing the game.
Thanks in advance, if that was confusing I can try to clear it up a bit 
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On December 29 2011 02:20 Mondeezy wrote:Hi all, I just switched from Terran to Protoss(silver league champ, so it's not like I'm playing at extremely high levels ), and after doing some research I found the thread with one basic opener for each race. My question though, however, is if there is one generic build vs all races that would help me improve my game, even if it's not the best for said individual race? I'm still learning the keybinds, building/unit costs, build times, abilities, etc., so I feel like one basic safe build would help me get used to it without completely winging it and bombing the game. Thanks in advance, if that was confusing I can try to clear it up a bit
I wouldn't advise using one build for all matchups even if you are still getting used to everything. But if you still want to the only thing I could think of that might work is some sort of 3 gate expand build but there are so many situations which require reactions based on scouting. You might need detection fast or maybe if your opponent expands really fast you should expand as fast as possible as well.
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On December 29 2011 02:27 AirbladeOrange wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 02:20 Mondeezy wrote:Hi all, I just switched from Terran to Protoss(silver league champ, so it's not like I'm playing at extremely high levels ), and after doing some research I found the thread with one basic opener for each race. My question though, however, is if there is one generic build vs all races that would help me improve my game, even if it's not the best for said individual race? I'm still learning the keybinds, building/unit costs, build times, abilities, etc., so I feel like one basic safe build would help me get used to it without completely winging it and bombing the game. Thanks in advance, if that was confusing I can try to clear it up a bit I wouldn't advise using one build for all matchups even if you are still getting used to everything. But if you still want to the only thing I could think of that might work is some sort of 3 gate expand build but there are so many situations which require reactions based on scouting. You might need detection fast or maybe if your opponent expands really fast you should expand as fast as possible as well.
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the quick response! The reason I ask for one generic build is because I *somewhat* know how to play reactionary, so if per say I see a Dark Shrine or a Tech Lab'd Starport I'll place a couple cannons around the mineral lines/main production buildings, and if I see a quick expansion I'll either try to get mine up ASAP or play aggresively. However, it's very hard(at least for me--tried it last night lol) to be playing a game and alt-tabbing to look at a build order on Liquipedia or TL Forums while getting 6-pooled or 2-rax pressured, lmao. I feel once I get a better grasp of the basics of the race I will be able to expand my gameplay to better suit more specific circumstances.
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On December 29 2011 02:36 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 02:27 AirbladeOrange wrote:On December 29 2011 02:20 Mondeezy wrote:Hi all, I just switched from Terran to Protoss(silver league champ, so it's not like I'm playing at extremely high levels ), and after doing some research I found the thread with one basic opener for each race. My question though, however, is if there is one generic build vs all races that would help me improve my game, even if it's not the best for said individual race? I'm still learning the keybinds, building/unit costs, build times, abilities, etc., so I feel like one basic safe build would help me get used to it without completely winging it and bombing the game. Thanks in advance, if that was confusing I can try to clear it up a bit I wouldn't advise using one build for all matchups even if you are still getting used to everything. But if you still want to the only thing I could think of that might work is some sort of 3 gate expand build but there are so many situations which require reactions based on scouting. You might need detection fast or maybe if your opponent expands really fast you should expand as fast as possible as well. Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the quick response! The reason I ask for one generic build is because I *somewhat* know how to play reactionary, so if per say I see a Dark Shrine or a Tech Lab'd Starport I'll place a couple cannons around the mineral lines/main production buildings, and if I see a quick expansion I'll either try to get mine up ASAP or play aggresively. However, it's very hard(at least for me--tried it last night lol) to be playing a game and alt-tabbing to look at a build order on Liquipedia or TL Forums while getting 6-pooled or 2-rax pressured, lmao. I feel once I get a better grasp of the basics of the race I will be able to expand my gameplay to better suit more specific circumstances.
One thing that may help is ignoring the numbers in the build orders, I've noticed it helped me tremendously. I get the basic order of the stuff down, and then simply build in that order when I have enough minerals for it.
It's so much easier to remember "Gate, gas, core, gas, gate, gate, nexus" than "13 gate, 14 gas, 17 core, 19 gas, 26 gate, 27 gate, 36 nexus"...
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How do you stop a 7 pool I feel like I scout the pool too late and even if I hold the rush I've taken too
Many loses to continue
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On December 29 2011 03:18 JMC4 wrote:
How do you stop a 7 pool I feel like I scout the pool too late and even if I hold the rush I've taken too
Many loses to continue
When are you scouting? If you're scouting on 9, you should be fine, unless you're nexus firsting or doing something else silly.
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On December 29 2011 03:42 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 03:18 JMC4 wrote:
How do you stop a 7 pool I feel like I scout the pool too late and even if I hold the rush I've taken too
Many loses to continue When are you scouting? If you're scouting on 9, you should be fine, unless you're nexus firsting or doing something else silly.
I'm scouting on 9. Do you want me to post a replay so you can tell me what I'm doing wrong?
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On December 29 2011 04:03 JMC4 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 03:42 mizU wrote:On December 29 2011 03:18 JMC4 wrote:
How do you stop a 7 pool I feel like I scout the pool too late and even if I hold the rush I've taken too
Many loses to continue When are you scouting? If you're scouting on 9, you should be fine, unless you're nexus firsting or doing something else silly. I'm scouting on 9. Do you want me to post a replay so you can tell me what I'm doing wrong?
It depends on whether you opened forge or gateway obviously. forge is a no brainer, add pylon behind minerals and cannon in the mineral line. Gateway opener, just add another gateway and a pylon to wall off, chrono the zealot (rallied into your base, not out), you should be able to get 2 zealots out before 1 gateway dies. Pull probes when the gateway is dying, and fight with probes and zealots at the ramp. Do your best to micro. Replace the dead gate with a cyber, continue to add zealots so you can defend your gate before your sentry/stalker is out.
In both scenarios it is important to hide your scouting probe. I like to place a pylon at the natural to make the zerg choose between pressuring the front and killing the pylon to expand after the initial pressure is over. If your probe is able to hide and make a proxy pylon, you are going to be able to probably win with a 4gate follow up, if not, you might need to macro your way out or do something tricky like stargate.
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On December 29 2011 04:03 JMC4 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 03:42 mizU wrote:On December 29 2011 03:18 JMC4 wrote:
How do you stop a 7 pool I feel like I scout the pool too late and even if I hold the rush I've taken too
Many loses to continue When are you scouting? If you're scouting on 9, you should be fine, unless you're nexus firsting or doing something else silly. I'm scouting on 9. Do you want me to post a replay so you can tell me what I'm doing wrong?
Sure. That might help.
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I got a couple of question in the PvT mu.
I am at mid masters for reference.
I want to know if I open 1 gate expo should I then proceed into collosus or just go up to 5 gate and double ups.
- if I stay on collosus should I have 4 gates and one forge?
- also how many stalkers should I make for the vikings if I only make 3 collsous and then switch to the ht
Thanks
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On December 29 2011 08:58 -MoOsE- wrote:
I got a couple of question in the PvT mu.
I am at mid masters for reference.
I want to know if I open 1 gate expo should I then proceed into collosus or just go up to 5 gate and double ups.
- if I stay on collosus should I have 4 gates and one forge?
- also how many stalkers should I make for the vikings if I only make 3 collsous and then switch to the ht
Thanks
These are all very vague questions and come down to preference.
Colossus with double forge is completely viable. There are different methods of getting there though.
Monk wrote a nice guide here to cover the basics. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549
The way he's playing it is extremely defensive and reactive.
Another option is to of course expo => 3gate robo with fast robotics facility for colossus. Depending on scouting you can use a two colossus with range timing to defend and put on some counter aggression. While doing this you'll start to gain gas since you've already researched thermal lance. Then start double forging while looking forward to your third.
Your upgrades are a bit more slow, and if you're aggressive you need to be careful of drops. But, both styles are completely valid.
Stalkers suck. You need them to defend drops and kill vikings. If they over produce vikings, just cut out stalkers and colossus for a while. They'll eventually allow you to kill vikings and you can remake colossus from 2-3 robos. This is extremely late game.
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I was laddering, I was doing fine, and I was finally having fun again, and then this happened:
http://uploaded.to/file/5m57s58q
PvZ Shakuras, I do some 4 Zealot 2 Stalker Push, I kill his 3rd, I miss his hidden expansion and I think Im far ahead, but he has mutas out and I retreat to my base. I sit there, turtle, get Archons, Storm, Cannon Up like an idiot..
after watching the replay I admit i misread the game, I thought I was ahead but I didnt know about his base in the upper right corner. So if he kills me now I guess I cant complain. But he doesnt and we play on and on til hes maxed on 33 mutas, I cannon up every base, Im maxed on Stalker/Archon/Templat, but it doesnt matter because he never engages. He just runs around and kills of everything til I finally basetrade.
The thing is, what can I do?! This is just so frustrating, all he doesi s run his stupid mutas around and I cantt do anything at all, I can never catch him...
Im seriously on the verge of punching a hole in the wall right now... Doubt im going to play sc2 again before hots is out, or Ill just 4 gate every single zerg I see... AGain, I admit i misread the game but it didnt even matter because he didnt kill me when he was ahead. I just dont know what I can do there really...
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Hi all.
I play Protoss, used to be high Silver before I stopped playing a couple of months ago due to not having much time to play, but am starting back up now.
Anyways, what I was wanting to ask was could someone provide me with 3 fundamental builds, one for each match up, (or something similar) which I can use for now to get up the early leagues and get going with the game. If you could have a link to each build's build order then I'd be very grateful as when I try to look up builds myself I seem to find about five variations of the same build and am not sure which is the most up to date one.
Thanks, Chivs.
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EPT
