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On December 27 2011 09:58 Lemonayd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 05:31 Froadac wrote:On December 26 2011 13:54 Lemonayd wrote:
For anybody struggling with PvZ, watch his vod from tonight (12/25/11 us). He plays a game on metal against a zerg who does 2 base muta and has some great analysis from start to finish. Are you referring to artosis? What time does he do it? There are 5 hours to go through TT Yes Artosis' stream, sorry I made a typo there. It was game three on the vod that night. I'm actually going to make a thread so we have something easy to read where we can just know where in his vods to look for certain content.
Any updates on this Lemonayd? I checked out the VOD from the 25th and I don't see the game on Metal.
(This is the video from the 25th: http://www.twitch.tv/artosis/b/303572965)
EDIT: Ah, this might be the one you were referring to: http://www.twitch.tv/artosis/b/303634407
Two base muta on Metal from Dec 23rd on Artosis's stream.
Note that this is 2base muta as a reaction to a gateway expand rather than an FFE. I'd like to see some FFE responses to 2-base muta. I usually 6 or 7 gate when I scout 2 base at the 8 minutes mark and suspect a spire but I find that if I don't time it perfectly, I lose.
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Hello,
discussing PvZ with my friend, My friend was close air positions and forge fast expanded vs a zerg, then double stargate.. The zerg went 2 base muta and at one stage had 12 mutas to 3 stalkers and a void, Im not sure if he made to many cannons or if his macro was off but is this a coinflip build for Protoss going double starpgate? Is it common for Z to go into 2 base muta and dump resources for 12 mutas.
thanks alot
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On December 27 2011 11:00 wOrD yO wrote:
Hello,
discussing PvZ with my friend, My friend was close air positions and forge fast expanded vs a zerg, then double stargate.. The zerg went 2 base muta and at one stage had 12 mutas to 3 stalkers and a void, Im not sure if he made to many cannons or if his macro was off but is this a coinflip build for Protoss going double starpgate? Is it common for Z to go into 2 base muta and dump resources for 12 mutas.
thanks alot
there's no way that the zerg can get 12 mutas while you only have 3 stalkers and a void...
Also you should be trying to scout to see if the zerg takes a third base when you ffe.
When you go double stargate it can basically be a build order win vs two base mutas because of the amount of phoenixes that you can get out.
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On December 27 2011 11:00 wOrD yO wrote:
Hello,
discussing PvZ with my friend, My friend was close air positions and forge fast expanded vs a zerg, then double stargate.. The zerg went 2 base muta and at one stage had 12 mutas to 3 stalkers and a void, Im not sure if he made to many cannons or if his macro was off but is this a coinflip build for Protoss going double starpgate? Is it common for Z to go into 2 base muta and dump resources for 12 mutas.
thanks alot
If the Zerg player had twelve Mutalisks out, the Protoss should have had at LEAST four Phoenixes out. It sounds like your friend was significantly behind on macro. Double Stargate works very well against Mutalisk play.
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On December 25 2011 14:17 Froadac wrote:
Well, I'm doing OK. Still losing to ling roach all ins on FFE, in base hatch (rofl) and mass ling infestor into super fast brood.
Or just low drone count roach into brood.
ugh it sucks when lose to roach all in with ffe. very demoralizing. are you opening with the 2 zealot poke? i do it every time i ffe now. it's incredibly good. if they can stop it, something is probably up. if they don't, you see everything! and if it gets stopped, use that probe you should have hidden (with your cannon probe, thx herO!) to check for a 3rd and then mineral walk into the main and check out the gas/building situation. if you see it coming, get a stalker out asap followed by pure stalker until you're safe. cannons and stalkers are what you want, not sentries though that seems like it would make more sense for pure defense. stalkers against slow roach is 1000x better than sentries vs slow roach even if you get ffs.. which are kind of useless in this situation compared to stalker/cannon
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Well, most of it is my micro sucks. I'll do two zealot poke, or naniwa 5 +1 zealot poke. See shitton of roach. React appropriately (chrono stalker) and then lose 
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On December 27 2011 14:07 toofaraway wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 11:00 wOrD yO wrote:
Hello,
discussing PvZ with my friend, My friend was close air positions and forge fast expanded vs a zerg, then double stargate.. The zerg went 2 base muta and at one stage had 12 mutas to 3 stalkers and a void, Im not sure if he made to many cannons or if his macro was off but is this a coinflip build for Protoss going double starpgate? Is it common for Z to go into 2 base muta and dump resources for 12 mutas.
thanks alot If the Zerg player had twelve Mutalisks out, the Protoss should have had at LEAST four Phoenixes out. It sounds like your friend was significantly behind on macro. Double Stargate works very well against Mutalisk play.
thank you i will inform him.
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say a terran opponent is doing 1-1-1 against me, at what point do i branch off to other techs and what tech if he waits and builds up his forces for a while. i find the 5 gate and 1 robo good against 9-11 minute pushes with 1-1-1, but past that it seems to me that the marine count becomes too much to handle with the tech that i have. is there a point where it is safe to go on to other things while he is still building up?
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On December 27 2011 19:58 FrankWalls wrote:
say a terran opponent is doing 1-1-1 against me, at what point do i branch off to other techs and what tech if he waits and builds up his forces for a while. i find the 5 gate and 1 robo good against 9-11 minute pushes with 1-1-1, but past that it seems to me that the marine count becomes too much to handle with the tech that i have. is there a point where it is safe to go on to other things while he is still building up?
Obviously its a hard choice when to tech up. You should still scout with an observer to see wether hes taking an expansion or not. At some point id either go Charge or Colossus ( youve already got the robo, even without range). Thats really something you you can only figure out what hes making.
What tech you do really depends on his composition. Stim Combatshield, Raven and banshee heavy - Zealot / Colossus and stalker will be shit against. Here you really cant miss your HT transition.
Generally if you dont lose too many probes, have an expansion up and he doesnt your economical advantage should let you make 1 zealot for every marine he makes letting you overwhelm him with a huge gateway army.
Marines are good, they arent GOD units though that can be killed with gateway units
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Build for PvZ on Metalopolis that counters roach allins (830-1300gametime) while getting a healthy natural (FFE=No, 1gate expo seems to fail to roach allins if not scouted, is a 3gate robo, or 2 gate robo more viable) This is the only map I cannot hold Roach Allin's or attacks on without making some amazing sim city of like 6 gateways/Forge/3-4 Cannons, or is this what I need to do?
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On December 27 2011 22:57 bayside wrote:
Build for PvZ on Metalopolis that counters roach allins (830-1300gametime) while getting a healthy natural (FFE=No, 1gate expo seems to fail to roach allins if not scouted, is a 3gate robo, or 2 gate robo more viable) This is the only map I cannot hold Roach Allin's or attacks on without making some amazing sim city of like 6 gateways/Forge/3-4 Cannons, or is this what I need to do?
Well any all in will kill you if unscouted, unless you are playing some really safe or risky build. Forge FE is possible but it's going to be harder because of your wide natural, just make the wall good and place a ton of cannons. If you want to expand using gateway units you could always 2-3gate expand. You shouldn't need more than 3-4 gates + cannons though.
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How do i deal with broodlords? Please don't give me the "dont let him get to broodlords crap".
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On December 28 2011 03:23 Atlas247 wrote:
How do i deal with broodlords? Please don't give me the "dont let him get to broodlords crap".
just get blink stalker or go a phoenix opening
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Dealing with BLs should be more about your macro and overall gameplay. No straight unit will counter BLs.
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Italy12247 Posts
On December 28 2011 03:26 swompiz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2011 03:23 Atlas247 wrote:
How do i deal with broodlords? Please don't give me the "dont let him get to broodlords crap". just get blink stalker or go a phoenix opening
What do phoenix openings have to do with broodlords? For one, phoenix aren't that good vs broods and void rays are a better choice, second, even if you open stargate it's quite unlikely your units will still be alive at the endgame.
Regarding broodlords: if he doesn't have infestors i personally think void rays are the best choice as opposed to blink stalkers. Against infestor/broodlord, either archon toilet with (i'm not kidding) carriers, assuming you are in super super lategame (5-6 bases), or lots of warp prism harass to destroy his economy and a good blink stalker count with some aoe to kill the broodlings (colossi, storm or both).
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On December 28 2011 03:28 mizU wrote:
Dealing with BLs should be more about your macro and overall gameplay. No straight unit will counter BLs.
Factual. As a rule of thumb, however, when the base count for both players gets high, make 2 stargates if you don't already have them for VR production. This should be after you have colossus and HT tech and Blink. If you have map presence at all (which you should if you are decent) you will see them coming with plenty of time to react with VRs. Unit composition I like is Archon/Blink Stalker/HT/VR
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In PvT, if I scout double gas, should I add a second gas myself and get a stargate asap? I feel like with a 1 gas 30 food FE, I don't have nearly the amount of gas I need to get a proper unit composition to fight banshees (stalkers, obs, phoenixes).
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when dealing with bl comps esp bl/infestor having a mothership is pretty much mandatory unless you are quite far ahead and they some how can't deal with a handful of void rays in conjunction with your standing army......
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On December 28 2011 05:53 eugalp wrote:
In PvT, if I scout double gas, should I add a second gas myself and get a stargate asap? I feel like with a 1 gas 30 food FE, I don't have nearly the amount of gas I need to get a proper unit composition to fight banshees (stalkers, obs, phoenixes).
Quite the contrary. double gas indicates indicates some kind of 1 base push (double starport banshee or 1-1-1 are the most common).
The correct way to stop this is to expand immediately (1 gate FE), and then add 2 gates a robo and second gas, and 4 th gate some time later. Chrono out 2 observers, one to his base, the other over your nexus.
When you can confirm 1 base play, stop probes (around 30-35) and make units to counter what you see.
double starport -> make observers and stalkers with blink
classic 1-1-1 (marine, tank, banshee, raven) -> make zealots, immortals and a couple of sentries for GS and keep 3 or 4 stalkers to defend banshee harass
other types of 1-1-1 -> make the gateway units that counter what he is doing 
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EPT
