EPTI usually just throw it up whenever I feel safe and have floated a bunch of minerals, but I feel like that is either too late or only works because it goes unscouted.
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 145
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fatalities
United States91 Posts
I usually just throw it up whenever I feel safe and have floated a bunch of minerals, but I feel like that is either too late or only works because it goes unscouted. | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On December 24 2011 10:00 fatalities wrote: When (in what scenarios) should I be looking to take a third in PvT and PvZ (1 Gate FE and FFE)? I usually just throw it up whenever I feel safe and have floated a bunch of minerals, but I feel like that is either too late or only works because it goes unscouted. Against Zerg it's easiest if you push towards him (I usually go clear towers/snipe ovies) with your main army. Set up you base while moving. Then pull back and leave 1 zealot at each tower. Nexus will be done soon. Pylons are done already, so you can start making gates/cannons for defense. Against T it's really situational. You need to scout what he is doing. If he is teching - you should tech and expand. If he's low tech, you should only expand if he does the same (else he would be able to all in with overwhelming amounts of units). If a T is meching (kindda rare - but still a good tip) it can be somewhat difficult to be costeffective against tons of tanks/thors. But he's super immobile, so mass expanding + attacking in multiple locations will tear him down. But against T it's usually more based on scouting... Against Z it's more a matter of you being able to scare your Z opponent to not attack (if you show him a pathetic army and pull back - he will most likely attack). On a personal note: I always aim to get my nat up before 8min mark - and 3rd before 12min mark... If my 3rd is not up before 15mins and it's not because of high aggression/harrassment games it will feel really all-in/bad'ish | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 24 2011 06:19 hzflank wrote: Basically, your second or third production building should always be a robo, unless your opponent is doing a marine/scv all-in in the first 5 minutes. Getting the robo as your fourth building is too late if your opponent has gas. A high masters+ player will probably go 1 gate robo into expo if they scout gas or do not get into the base to scout at all. If they get in and scout no gas then they will go 1 gate expand into two more gateways and then a robo. As a lower level player I tend to go 2 gate expand into robo. In fact, I have recently stopped worker scouting altogether vs terran. I am still not sure if it is good, but I have won my last several PvTs (low masters). I just open 2 gate and send the first zealot and stalker to scout, then start my nexus, robo then third gateway. It seems safe against anything the terran can throw at me. I'm decently high-ish masters at the moment (it depends on how active I have been lately), and I have to say going 1gate FE gate gate robo is the safest. It's worth noting that I haven't been doing any tests with 1gate FE gate robo gate though. Skip the robo against some kind of 2rax. My reasoning is that an observer will be out in time for banshees but you will have 2 earlier gateways for defending any kind of hellions drops or other more uncommon aggression. This is important as at least half of all the terrans on ladder are 1basing for a period of time before(if) they expand. Be careful of not getting too many probes (ie. don't chronoboost them too hard) or tech you don't want until you have confirmed that no 1-1-1 or any of the other random all-ins is coming. Hiding a probe at his natural is also a good idea to see when he moves out or expands. | ||
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Abusion
United Kingdom184 Posts
 thanks in advance. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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Ristaccia
United States25 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 24 2011 11:31 Abusion wrote: Hello! I'm having the biggest trouble in my PvP. My other MU are fine however, in PvP, I have no idea of a goal. I've tried robo twilight but I get out-massed very quickly and I feel my APM/skill isn't high enough for that ''guide''. Since then I've done 3 gate robo with varying success... I feel like, to win, I have to blindly make a Robotics bay, as , if I play 'safe' and get an immortal first and he goes straight for collosus I'm never going to catch up his collosus number...ever, and he'll role me when he gets a critical mass and I'll get rolled if I try and expand. What should I do? any other styles that are friendly to low level play? I'm high plat/diamond if thats any help. thanks in advance.I don't really think anything in PvP is very friendly for your APM/skill Just try to execute a hard build, it won't be perfect but you will get better over time and when you reach a higher level so will your strategy. Going colossus on one base and then expanding is probably the easiest way as it only requries you to turtle and getting out an immortal first won't be much of a problem. If you're playing on say shakura's plateau, by the time his colossus arrives at your base you will soon pop another one too. So keep it defensive and you will be fine, expand when you got 1-2 colossi as gateway units melt anyway. Oh and if you really need to catch up on those colossus numbers, just throw down another robo once you're on 2+ bases.As for other styles the only one currently used a lot is stargate for phoenixes, you might want to read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296637 Then you can also go for immortal drops, 4gate, blink all in etc but those builds are not used that much. On December 24 2011 16:32 Froadac wrote: Wow. PvZ is so hard for me right now. What am I supposed to do? Generally I do good damage early, if I attack he builds roaches and I lose. But if I don't attack he drones to high heaven and wins. I've been watching hero replays, but without his sick control my units just die to roach ling. If he goes muta ling I'm screwed. If not, they just fast tech to broods and win, because i have no idea when to push even with many obs running about... If I miss a couple FF I feel like I just die If you have some units but know he can quickly make some of his own to defend, do a fake attack. Push to his xel naga tower, kill some creep and then go home. He will be scared and make units instead of drones while you get to go home safely. Against muta ling you really need to get blink stalkers, or 2 stargates if you feel like you're on top of your unit control for the phoenixes. Use the blink stalkers to defend your main and leave your zealot sentry army at the front, cannon up your mineral lines and try to take a third and tech HTs. Once you have HT tech get a few archons and then tech storm (you can get storm before making archons but I feel like it's a little bit riskier). At this point, if he continues making mutas, you want to leave 5-6 cannons and a HT at each mineral line and then push him,. Try to take out as many bases as possible and force his mutas to engage you so you can kill them. Chances are he transitioned to roaches or some other unit so be careful. When you scout broodlords there are, imo, three strategies that you can possibly use. The first and easiest is throwing down 2 or more stargates and begin pumping voidrays. Use these to kill his corruptors and broodlords while letting your colossi melt his ground. The second strategy you can use is the archon toilet. Get a mothership, some archons and vortex them together with his broodlords. And the third strategy is abusing his immobility. Broodlords are so awefully slow that you can get in, take out an expansion or two and get out before he gets close to you. You do this until you have enough of an economic advantage and then engage him, remaxing and engaging again. If he does go for a basetrade you will have the advantage of mobility. On December 24 2011 17:34 Ristaccia wrote: I always end up losing in PvT in mid to late game. I'll always get crushed by mmmg sometimes with vikings if i have colossi. My entire army gets emp'd and my ground army ends up disappearing in engagements. Any tips on how to fight terran late game? I'll usually open up with a fast expand build but I will always lose to mmmg. If you die to mmmg you probably need a better spread of your units (read sentries) and maybe more gateways, around 5. If you want to hold it on 3 you should get immortals too and maybe a cannon. Once you're past this stage of the game you need to get some kind of AoE out before the terran army gets too big. Colossus is the most obvious choice but you have to get enough stalkers to protect them from vikings, you can also get storm but I find this a bit risky myself as a few EMPs means gg. Then you can also get archons for a zealot archon mix. These are the units which allows you to survive the next stage of the game. After that you have to mix them so when you go up against the lategame marine marauder medivac ghost viking you got zealot stalker sentry + a combination of AoE units. If you only make colossus he will make 16 vikings and if you only get archons he will get a ton of EMPs, so make sure you think about this when you have 3+ bases running. A few tips I have noticed for using storm late game: send the templars in behind the rest of your army, so that they don't get EMPd instantly. You will lose some units before they get in range but at least they get to storm something. You can also use the warp prism to shield them, however losing the warp prism is a huge loss so make sure you got the speed upgrade if you try this, it's also very micro intensive. Ooh and make sure you have a lot of/enough upgrades. I ususally go for double forge every game as this gives you a good timing at 2/2 or 3/3 before the terran got his upgrades done. I think that you have to do at least some damage to him if you're not getting upgrades fast enough, killing of at least a portion of his army or something. Merry christmas TL~ | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
http://drop.sc/78704 http://drop.sc/78703 | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 25 2011 02:13 Froadac wrote: Thanks latedi. I'm obviously doing something wrong to get into my shit position. here are two replays showcasing how I get owned. http://drop.sc/78704 http://drop.sc/78703 Game 1: Nice cannon rush, send a second probe to scout for proxy expansions. You don't need that many cannons, scout what he's up to and make appropriate amounts. This connects to my last points of sending a probe. You can hide pylons at his fourth and the probe behind his third etc. If you are playing blind make 2 cannons total and add another one if you think he's going aggressive, stuff the hole in the wall with your zealots as a zergling runby at this point is gg. Chronoboost sentries and warpgates rather than getting +1 weapons and getting so many cannons. Don't delay WG research for that long. As for your wall, use as few pylons as possible in it. You can also get armor after attack upgrades since you're not getting a fast twilight council. Noooo don't make 2 robotics support bays xD Against mutas you can probably do with 1-2 cannons per mineral line and then maybe 3 at your third. A good idea is to place the cannons and pylons first and expand after that so you don't have to cancel if the mutas fly in. Also make 2 pylons at least for every group of cannons. If you make say 5 cannons but they are powered by only 1 pylon the mutas can easily take it out. You also want some zealots against mutas because 99% of the time they are going to be accompanied by lings. Get observers earlier and dont forget your HT tech. Game 2: You saw his gas so the stalker opening is dangerous, they can't kite speedlings. So you'll need to open with zealot sentry compositions instead. That's about as much as i can help you, other than that you'll only have to work on your execution and it won't really matter if your build is suboptimal for now. On December 25 2011 02:24 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I need a bit of help cleaning up my FFE vs Zerg all-ins. What are some clear indicators that a roach/ling all-in or a baneling bust is coming and what are some of the better ways to get good scouting info? What's the safest follow up to a FFE? I'm a plat level protoss starting to face a lot of diamonds The indicators are tech/units (obviously), if he mines more than 100 gas and the timing of, if any, the third base. Try to hide probes or sneak them out to scout for a third, if there's none it's either an all-in, a tech build or some overly safe play. Suiciding a probe into his base can work sometimes too. Just look at how much gas he has mined, if he's making drones and see if you can find any tech. The safest follow up depends a lot on what the zerg is doing. For example if he takes a really quick third the safest is to 6gate him so you won't die later but if he's teching you want to get a twilight or rob. Generally the safest pressure you can use is stargate. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 25 2011 04:14 Froadac wrote: Thanks. So second game I just botched FF? No problem. Partly yes. There are several things that contributed to your loss: going for chronoboosted double stalker against speed and skipping the zealot. Then you lost the first stalker to lings while trying to move out. The forcefield came kind of late as you made 2 stalkers before the sentry so I don't think it could have saved you, you really need to prevent the lings from surrounding your units, like stuffing units in the hole between the cyber and the cliff and then staying there until you have enough units to move down safely to your natural. | ||
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hox
United States59 Posts
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EntropicXG
Canada10 Posts
On December 25 2011 06:37 hox wrote: Hi! I'm wondering what's your typical followup after denying a 4gate (opponent loses a probe and maybe a pylon and then just backs off). I've had opponents expand immediately after, while using their units to deny scouting - which puts me behind in the midgame. Is it recommended to follow up with crazy aggression afterwards? It seems a bit counterintuitive to me, as defending the 4gate puts me ahead in gas, so I'd think my best course of action is to pursue a tech path. I'd say prod at their natural while you expand. No need to commit to the attack, just see what your opponent has going on. You should (hopefully) have an immortal or two out. If a 4gate fails, the typical transition for the 4gating player is DTs or mass blink Stalkers. Expanding, getting a few obs and teching for Colossi is generally a solid way to go after you deny the 4gate. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
I'm also just doing the +1 zealot into colossus now on FFE maps., found good rep from naniwa. | ||
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Ldawg
United States328 Posts
Could someone at my level or above provide a link to or a replay of themselves holding off a similar push? I would greatly appreciate it. If you don't have a replay, useful advice would be helpful as well. Edit-I should say that in my games, I am almost always ahead econ wise and we are usually both on 2 base (this is a PvT). However I usually use this battle and then lose the game as I cannot reinforce quickly enough. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 25 2011 08:21 Froadac wrote: I'll open up all sentry in future. How many should I go to? I know a while ago it was argued all the way up to 11, but I've seen pros stay as low as 5, and never get over 7-8. I'm also just doing the +1 zealot into colossus now on FFE maps., found good rep from naniwa. Yeah it's a typical 1gate or 3gate expand thing. You get about 4-8 sentries. You can go lower if needed, especially later in the game when you lose sentries and can't afford replacing them but I would advice you not to go higher and instead save the gas for better use. Naniwa's build is nice I'm using a similar variation made by HerO, you can have a closer look here if you'd like: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970 | ||
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LiquidSlick
United States33 Posts
On a related note... how do you safely push out verse a zerg when he continuously demolishes you base with mutas when you move out? I can't cover it all AND move out. I can't turtle or the map is his? Ideas thoughts? Masters and above please. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 25 2011 11:07 LiquidSlick wrote: Why does everyone say that 1 - 2 cannons per mineral line works against muta harrass? I seriously get crushed with only two cannons at the mineral line. How do you guys position them? If you don't have stalkers gaurding them how do they just not fall? On a related note... how do you safely push out verse a zerg when he continuously demolishes you base with mutas when you move out? I can't cover it all AND move out. I can't turtle or the map is his? Ideas thoughts? Masters and above please. you get them initially when he don't have more than 10 mutas or so. If he keeps making them you have to keep making cannons until you have 5 or more. If you want to be safe against a ton of mutas you need to leave HTs with storm as well. Until then, cannons can trade cost effectively and if he kills your 2 cannons before the stalkers arrive and lost a muta, that's worth it for you. | ||
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fatalities
United States91 Posts
I'm high platinum, so maybe I don't have the APM to execute it, but I've been able to blink in to their base and snipe some pylons and occasionally a production building. However, in the last three PvPs, they went colossus and just went for the base trade, and I was out of position each time. How can I be sure where his army is if my observer is giving me vision? On a side note, how many immortals should I make? | ||
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