EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 143
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blacklist_member
Australia318 Posts
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sikender1
5 Posts
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
On December 22 2011 05:17 sikender1 wrote: Is there any specific build order against MM ball? Because every time i 1 gate FE it usually fails. 3 gate expand should be really safe against an early mm attack | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On December 21 2011 17:03 Quochobao wrote: I would say that this is bad advice. Guardian shield is strong, but you do not need 4 sentries for that. The hp of sentries is way too low to be a strong fighting unit. For example, in kcdc 1 gate FE, he recommends, 1 sentries, 2 zealots, 3 stalkers. With your composition, 2 rax with concussive shell will kill the stalker and kite the rest. I'm only low master though -- so I'm willing to admit my fault if a better player contradicts. I am only around your level, but I also quite like 1 zealot 1 stalker 4 sentry. Against marauders, sentries have as much hp as stalkers but can also forcefield. And against the standard marine heavy push, he wont have stim and it is easy to trap his marines (range 5) with forcefields. And if you keep your sentries alive you end up with a lot of forcefields later on. I think the downside to this build is that it probably delay both your expansion and your robo, but I prefer to play safe and get the sentries anyway. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On December 22 2011 05:17 sikender1 wrote: Is there any specific build order against MM ball? Because every time i 1 gate FE it usually fails. It depends on the type of MM ball. The most common is a 2 rax with a reactor on the first rax, after the first marine. Top players hold this with a 1 gate expand, but I struggle. I tend to 2 gate expand if I see 1 gas and get my robo after the expansion. I get 4 sentries early then add mostly zealot with just a couple of stalkers. Most grandmaster players would 1 gate then robo then expand if they see gas, as it allows them to scout a possible 1 base play faster. They use an immortal to help defend the first push. If it is a 3 rax then it should not hit until he gets stim, but it will hit hard. You just need lots of zealots and some immortals, with a dash of stalkers and sentries. You need to use forcefields to stop him kiting your zealots. There is also a 20 worker 1 base 5 rax MM attack that will hit around 8:30. You really need to identify this fast to stop it. Cut workers at 35 and throw up extra gateways. Do not take the gas at your natural. You just need to get as many units out as possible (and constantly chrono your robo). You can pull all the workers at your natural also. In general, you really need to get a count on their barracks by the 7 minute mark and adapt from there. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 22 2011 05:10 blacklist_member wrote: In PvP how do i stop a korean 4 gate where he goes mass zealot? Try to get stalkers out to kill the probe and kite the zealots, send 4 probes to kill any pylons warping in and if you want to, get cannons. On December 22 2011 05:22 Froadac wrote: 3 gate expand should be really safe against an early mm attack Don't tell someone to change build just because that persons can't use it yet :p On December 22 2011 05:46 hzflank wrote: It depends on the type of MM ball. The most common is a 2 rax with a reactor on the first rax, after the first marine. Top players hold this with a 1 gate expand, but I struggle. I tend to 2 gate expand if I see 1 gas and get my robo after the expansion. I get 4 sentries early then add mostly zealot with just a couple of stalkers. Most grandmaster players would 1 gate then robo then expand if they see gas, as it allows them to scout a possible 1 base play faster. They use an immortal to help defend the first push. If it is a 3 rax then it should not hit until he gets stim, but it will hit hard. You just need lots of zealots and some immortals, with a dash of stalkers and sentries. You need to use forcefields to stop him kiting your zealots. There is also a 20 worker 1 base 5 rax MM attack that will hit around 8:30. You really need to identify this fast to stop it. Cut workers at 35 and throw up extra gateways. Do not take the gas at your natural. You just need to get as many units out as possible (and constantly chrono your robo). You can pull all the workers at your natural also. In general, you really need to get a count on their barracks by the 7 minute mark and adapt from there. I just want to note that going robo before the additional 2 gates is risky against builds like hellion drop or fake 1-1-1 (bunker) 2raxes, there are probably other builds too. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
On December 22 2011 05:17 sikender1 wrote: Is there any specific build order against MM ball? Because every time i 1 gate FE it usually fails. 1 gate FE has no problem against 2 rax pressure. My own question: When I FFE against zerg, how to counter roach all in? - 1 base all-in, hatch cancel: add cannon and stalker? - 2 base all-in: add cannon, and try to get a stargate up? I'm just trying to figure out the most efficient way, i.e. how many gates / stalker or sentry, etc.? Can anyone help? | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 22 2011 09:51 Quochobao wrote: 1 gate FE has no problem against 2 rax pressure. My own question: When I FFE against zerg, how to counter roach all in? - 1 base all-in, hatch cancel: add cannon and stalker? - 2 base all-in: add cannon, and try to get a stargate up? I'm just trying to figure out the most efficient way, i.e. how many gates / stalker or sentry, etc.? Can anyone help? Cannons, forcefields and if possible, a solid wall. If you roaches can poke at your nexus or other parts of the wall you might need stalkers to harass them. If you feel like you can get a stargate up in time, for example like MC's fast voidrays, then that's a possibility which allows you to pressure the zerg once you have defended the attack. Even if he makes more queens and you can't do any direct damage you can deny the third. | ||
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
On December 22 2011 10:08 Latedi wrote: Cannons, forcefields and if possible, a solid wall. If you roaches can poke at your nexus or other parts of the wall you might need stalkers to harass them. If you feel like you can get a stargate up in time, for example like MC's fast voidrays, then that's a possibility which allows you to pressure the zerg once you have defended the attack. Even if he makes more queens and you can't do any direct damage you can deny the third. I don't think force field is enough on maps like Shattered Temple and Metalopolis. There are too many angles for roaches to shoot from, no? That's why I often go stalker instead of sentry so that he can't focus down my cannon for free... | ||
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Lemonayd
United States745 Posts
Research told me that fast expanding is the best way to deal with the terran all ins so you can afford the robo tech and a fair ammount of gateway units. You can see me attempt that in the second game to no avail. Any feedback would be amazing. I've been struggling to improve ever since hitting diamond. It's really hard for me to see my flaws. It seems my losses are more based on the choices of builds in actions in game rather than mechanics like it was going from bronze until diamond. http://drop.sc/77995 http://drop.sc/77994 | ||
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Josep
United States9 Posts
1. The consensus seems to be that once the cannon is up at the natural choke (but before the walloff is complete), Protoss is safe from a zergling runby, even with lings on the field (or even sitting right outside Protoss' natural). Watching the pro games, there can be a hole in the wall, no probe near the wall (which could then throw down a blocking building -- in fact, their mineral count doesn't even allow for a gateway often), and no zerg attack in sight. It's like the zerg knows that Protoss can hold the lings if they ten lings and ran them into the base past the cannon, so zerg doesn't make the extra lings or attack. That's great at the pro level, but that doesn't help me feel safe when doing an FFE and zerg could randomly decide to sacrifice their economy and rush me with lings. 2. Against roaches, the consensus seems to be 1-2 initial cannons augmented as the game goes on by sentries, additional cannons and/or good simcity holds roaches from early pressure/all-ins. But I have trouble figuring out what my goals are with the sentries / cannon placement / simcity. The pros are crazy good with force fields, but I'm generally puzzling over "How near to my wall do my cannons need to be? Am I trying to trap the roaches near my cannons so my cannons can kill them, or away from my wall so they quit killing it? How concerned should I be about being baited into using force field energy that I may need later if they keep pressuring with roaches?" Thanks * - Most of the guides / comments I've found deal with the question enough to address 'what do you need to build to be safe', but not much seems to address 'how do you use what you've built to be safe'. | ||
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-YoricK-
United States476 Posts
I decided to let my cyber finish, I pulled guys off gas, dropped another gateway and then started chronoing zealots. Even with decent probe micro, I just can't hold efficiently, as he is building probes behind the attack and he has such a zealot advantage that I can't engage without probes. I decided to go for a stalker, but its pretty useless as 1 stalker takes forever to kite zealots and he just sends a couple zealots to my mineral line. Not sure what to do, it seems like such a coinflip that I lose to. If I scout him first, I have enough time to build another gateway/forge and chrono out zealots or build a cannon but when I scout that late I can't hold. I don't think I have ever held a proxy 2 gate in this situation. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
On December 22 2011 20:26 -YoricK- wrote: How do you hold a proxy 2 gate when you scout the other player last when opening standard, i.e. 13 gate, 14 assim, 17 cyber etc. Had a game on metalopolis where he proxied his 2 gates where I would take my third. I usually scout close air first and he was cross, so by the time I got to his base the situation is cyber half done, 1 gateway up building a zealot, and he is about to roll into my base with his first 2 zealots. What should I do? I decided to let my cyber finish, I pulled guys off gas, dropped another gateway and then started chronoing zealots. Even with decent probe micro, I just can't hold efficiently, as he is building probes behind the attack and he has such a zealot advantage that I can't engage without probes. I decided to go for a stalker, but its pretty useless as 1 stalker takes forever to kite zealots and he just sends a couple zealots to my mineral line. Not sure what to do, it seems like such a coinflip that I lose to. If I scout him first, I have enough time to build another gateway/forge and chrono out zealots or build a cannon but when I scout that late I can't hold. I don't think I have ever held a proxy 2 gate in this situation. On maps like metal, shattered, or shakuras, you scout proxy locations first if you gate scout, or go directly to opponent base if you pylon scout. Same on 2 player maps. On 4 player maps, if they want to proxy they have to do it in the middle of the map, and you should be able to hold it even if you scout last (but it's harder). If you scout it early enough, ou answer with another gate and pulling guys off gas. Which is what you did, but I'm guessing you put the second gate too late. If you scout it later, you answer by putting a forge, pulling probes while cannon is warping in, which is probably what you should have done. | ||
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MooSlapper
United States113 Posts
Is it a good idea to always pump out collosi? I was under the impression that you transition out of them at some point... My theory is either one or the other: 1.) THese pros are not playing well and doing the wrong thing here... OR 2.) They build Collosi to force vikings/corruptors, while still getting enough splash damage in before they die to consider their deaths "worthy". High Templar enough will never be enough to deal with mid/late game armies so collosi are needed whether counters are on board or not. IF #2 is indeed the case---- shouldn't you be at LEAST be pumping out a lot of stalkers to defend ur collosi's from vikings/corruptors? | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 22 2011 16:25 Josep wrote: For PvZ, is there a discussion about how* to deal with (1) zergling, and (2) roach pressure when using an FFE? I have seen lots of guides on how to FFE, but there seems to be some secret knowledge about why it is safe at certain points that I don't get. Specifically: 1. The consensus seems to be that once the cannon is up at the natural choke (but before the walloff is complete), Protoss is safe from a zergling runby, even with lings on the field (or even sitting right outside Protoss' natural). Watching the pro games, there can be a hole in the wall, no probe near the wall (which could then throw down a blocking building -- in fact, their mineral count doesn't even allow for a gateway often), and no zerg attack in sight. It's like the zerg knows that Protoss can hold the lings if they ten lings and ran them into the base past the cannon, so zerg doesn't make the extra lings or attack. That's great at the pro level, but that doesn't help me feel safe when doing an FFE and zerg could randomly decide to sacrifice their economy and rush me with lings. 2. Against roaches, the consensus seems to be 1-2 initial cannons augmented as the game goes on by sentries, additional cannons and/or good simcity holds roaches from early pressure/all-ins. But I have trouble figuring out what my goals are with the sentries / cannon placement / simcity. The pros are crazy good with force fields, but I'm generally puzzling over "How near to my wall do my cannons need to be? Am I trying to trap the roaches near my cannons so my cannons can kill them, or away from my wall so they quit killing it? How concerned should I be about being baited into using force field energy that I may need later if they keep pressuring with roaches?" Thanks * - Most of the guides / comments I've found deal with the question enough to address 'what do you need to build to be safe', but not much seems to address 'how do you use what you've built to be safe'. These are really good questions. For #1, you have to realize that pros take risks all the time and in fact ling runbys are a lot more common than they should be. A big factor is that the zerg is taking a huge risk by making 10 lings and relying on the protoss not to wall off or somehow not scout the incoming lings. A zerg also takes a risk running by with even 4 lings, because then he won't have lings to scout for hidden proxy pylons. 2. You cannon placement differs a lot between the map and the situation. For example, cannon placement on dual sight and termius re will be completely different, so it's hard to give general advice. I will say that it's important for cannons to cover each other and every building included in your wall. With forcefields in this situation, always forcefield units out, never in. Prevent lings from hitting your outside buildings and from running by. Forcefield roaches out of range of your cannons. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On December 22 2011 11:42 Quochobao wrote: I don't think force field is enough on maps like Shattered Temple and Metalopolis. There are too many angles for roaches to shoot from, no? That's why I often go stalker instead of sentry so that he can't focus down my cannon for free... Without any forcefields he's just gonna walk straight into your mineral line. Also, make more cannons. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On December 21 2011 23:52 JonnyLaw wrote: I disagree in the early game on most maps. It is difficult to get enough sentries in the early stages of the game out of a one gate expand without dying to any non-bio build. Even if you have enough sentries in the early game to prevent bio pushes, this means your forcefields have to be well placed. Stalkers fare decently well vs small amounts of bio without medivacs. Ensure you always have a zealot or two to tank initial shots while the stalkers kite forward to deal damage. I ran a small test to ilustrate my thoughts: 1) 10 stalkers + 2 zealots (1450 mins 500 gas) constantly under gs from 1 sentry (which did not participate in battle in any other way) againts 14 marines + 5 marauders (1200 mins 125 gas, have stim no shield) = 4 marauders survive. MM used stim, no micro on both sides, open ground. Resources lost: P: 1950, T: 825 2) 8 zealots+3 sentries+2 immortals (which equals in cost to 10 stalkers 2 zealots) against same mm force = 4 zealots+3sentries+2 immortals survive. Stim on mm, gs on sentries, no micro on both sides (no ffs or kiting), open ground. Resources lost: P: 400, T: 1325 3) 5 immortals+2 zealots constantly under gs from 1 sentry (which did not participate in battle in any other way) againts same mm force = 3 immortals survive. Stim, no micro, marauders were placed behind. Resources lost: P: 900, T: 1325 | ||
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Troublesome
United Kingdom522 Posts
(FFEing) | ||
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Archontas
United States319 Posts
On December 23 2011 01:46 Troublesome wrote: How can you possibly not lose to six pool on a four player map when you scout their correct position last? (FFEing) If you don't scout them in the first or second position, you have to throw down your 2nd pylon against your Nexus. You'll be scouting the last location right around when the lings pop - if they are 6 or 7 pooling, your first cannon goes down in your mineral line instead of the wall-off. You'll lose the pylon and forge but your probes will be safe, and you continue into a normal build from there. | ||
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