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On November 16 2011 21:17 rawler wrote:
lol ok NrGmonk... after reading that, I see there truly is no need to discuss this with you anymore.
Everyone--- the new pro marine counter is to immediately build 2 immortals & skip stalkers. Oh, and if you play against Zerg, you will surely lose if you scout theri lair tech. Do NOT scout lair tech!! it is a terrible idea.
You actually realize that it doesnt really matter if the zerg is on lair tech or not...
The real thing you want to know when you scout is if he got a 3rd base early on, if hes going roach or mutas. Most zerg player wont go "Hydra", if they go that way, its because they have a timing push in mind... Either Drop or Hydra-ling timing.
Immortal are actually decent vs marine composition but the real thing you want with immortal is to be able to attack the bunkers if he retreat to them. Immortal are always good to have around before teching collosus, that way you can survive a lot easier to MM timing push Marine-tank timing push or punish a greedy terran (Like if he double expo and bunker up)
NrGMonk is actually right in almost everything he said...
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United States8477 Posts
On November 16 2011 21:14 SGilna wrote:alright here is my replay.. http://drop.sc/59663with sentries of cuz i did on my gs and ff....but come to think of it my ff isn't really well placed..
Your biggest problem that game was a lack of map presence/scouting. Until your observer gets to his base, you have absolutely no idea what he is doing. You need some type of scouting either a probe or a poking stalker. There would have been a ton of builds that could have done you in. In particular, you need to be very aware of how many bases he's on. If he's on 1 base for that long, you really need to go to 4-5 gates to defend any allin.
You didn't react to the scouting information that you got. After scouting 3 rax and a reactor'd starport with a very late cc, you make 2 forges and a twilight and a robo bay. Your very early twilight doesn't even upgrade anything. Based on this scouting information, you should be aware of 2 possibilities: either multipronged drops or a frontal attack. Keeping that in mind, you should place your units in a position to defend those drops while at the same time macroing off of 4-5 gates and a robo.
Your forcefields were way off and you should have gotten more than 3 sentries at that stage in the game. Generally, you want to shoot for 4-6 for a macro game. If you had good forcefields, you would have won that battle quite easily.
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I'm a silver league protoss and looking to get better, can anyone here watch my replay and tell me where I'm going wrong and what I can improve on - like my macro and micro, but at the same time what I'm good at and can stop working on as much?
Replay: http://drop.sc/59798 (Tal'darim 15 nexus)
Cheers
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On November 17 2011 03:44 nytz wrote:I'm a silver league protoss and looking to get better, can anyone here watch my replay and tell me where I'm going wrong and what I can improve on - like my macro and micro, but at the same time what I'm good at and can stop working on as much? Replay: http://drop.sc/59798 (Tal'darim 15 nexus) Cheers
Well, there's always things to be working on, and from this replay it's hard to tell because your opponent is sooo bad, but here are some notes I made from your play:
The good:
1) Expansion timing -- learning when and how to expand is the difference between silver and gold, in my opinion.
2) Upgrades -- I love the double ups on big macro maps (like this one) vs T
3) Army composition -- early you focus on gateway units and immortals, then as your macro ramps up you add collosus and HT. That's the standard, probably best unit comp vs T.
4) Pylons -- so refreshing to see decent pylon production in the lower leagues. Your pylon production is as good for gold and even lower platinum. Keep it up!
The bad:
1) Probe production -- look at the replay from the point that your natural nexus finishes. Select both your main and your natural nexi and just look at the bottom panel showing what's building. You should basically never not be producing a probe until you have both bases fully saturated (~50 probes total). Try working on keeping probe production as smooth as possible!
2) Observer scouting -- this can be quite hard, but once you get into the habit, it will revolutionize your gameplay. You get the robo and the observer (great!), but you fly it over and you can see from your player cam that you look at it 3 times. You use it to check his army comp and his natural. You don't scout his whole base to see that he has been making banshees. If he had attacked you with them instead of sitting them in the middle of the map doing nothing, you would be in trouble because they had cloak and that observer was your only one you made all game.
3) Army scouting -- poke with your army around the map to check for expansions, army composition, etc for times when you don't have an observer (before robo, after you flew it into his turrets), if you can't afford the robo build time for another obs, etc
Scouting will help you know sooo much: Am I safe to expand? (see a command center --> yes! See his army moving out --> no!), What kind of army composition do I need against his composition?, Can I kill him now?, Am I ahead or behind on bases?
With more probes, you'll max out faster and be safer against enemy attacks if he ever decides to move farther than his natural. With better scouting you'll be able to use your money in the exact way you should be using it to have a better composition to combat your enemy's.
GL!
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Hey guys, I am a top 8 Gold Protoss, trying to get into Platinum at the moment, and need some help for PvZ
The main build I like to do is a 3gate sentry expand with a fast +1 into a 7 Gate all-in with blink stalkers.
This mainly worked for most gold league Zergs who dont get an early third, but last time I was matched up with a Platinum Zerg who went for a really fast third.
I didn't apply any pressure at all for most of the game, up until I was going to do my push. I pushed at around 13:00 with many stalkers, zealots and sentries. I took out almost all of his roaches and just about when I was going to push into his natural I saw around 12 Hydras and more roaches come which just destroyed my force.. That was pretty much gg since then with him just massing hydra and waiting outside my base with creep spread all over the place. Some questions I have about my play is..
-I didn't get a robo at all until my all-in failed, the last but of scouting information I had was him taking his third
-I went for a wierd 2 forge double upgrade during and after my push, was this stupid?
-Should I be applying pressure more earlier?
-Is a 7 gate viable if the Zerg takes an early third?
Sorry, this might be too big of a question for "simple questions and answers" but If someone could help, or maybe suggest a better timing attack that would be great.
Thanks
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On November 17 2011 09:55 Symph wrote:
Hey guys, I am a top 8 Gold Protoss, trying to get into Platinum at the moment, and need some help for PvZ
The main build I like to do is a 3gate sentry expand with a fast +1 into a 7 Gate all-in with blink stalkers.
This mainly worked for most gold league Zergs who dont get an early third, but last time I was matched up with a Platinum Zerg who went for a really fast third.
I didn't apply any pressure at all for most of the game, up until I was going to do my push. I pushed at around 13:00 with many stalkers, zealots and sentries. I took out almost all of his roaches and just about when I was going to push into his natural I saw around 12 Hydras and more roaches come which just destroyed my force.. That was pretty much gg since then with him just massing hydra and waiting outside my base with creep spread all over the place. Some questions I have about my play is..
-I didn't get a robo at all until my all-in failed, the last but of scouting information I had was him taking his third
-I went for a wierd 2 forge double upgrade during and after my push, was this stupid?
-Should I be applying pressure more earlier?
-Is a 7 gate viable if the Zerg takes an early third?
Sorry, this might be too big of a question for "simple questions and answers" but If someone could help, or maybe suggest a better timing attack that would be great.
Thanks
1. You don't really need more scouting. If he takes a fast third you know he's gonna defend with roach ling probably.
2. One forge is enough. Try to hit timings so you are not upgrading when you are attacking.
3. Yeah I think earlier pressure would be better, like a 6gate. 13:00 is very late into the game and the zerg is most likely way too saturated, that's why this strategy is very all-in.
4. 7gate blink with +1 or +2 is a pretty good build against fast thirds. However you would be better off if you did it with a forge expand. This way your attack comes much faster as your ecoonomy kicks in more quickly.
I really like the first timing in this guide http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253932 (the second one being a little too all-in for my taste). I don't think it's that easy to execute but it's solid.
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Hey guys,
I have encountered a very specific situation that I tried to deal with numerous times as it is a very common strategy for Terrans at the moment.
The basic information:
Matchup: PvT
Map: Metalopolis
Spawn Location: Close by air
Terran Build: Essentiallly a 1/1/1 but varies in number of barracks/starports/factories.
The problem:
The problem is a strong timing push by the Terran with Tanks/Marines/Banshee/Medivac. Due to the spawn location the Terran moves out and is at my base (low ground by the watchtower) within seconds, he spots with Banshees and Medivacs and has tanks in Siege mode at the low ground. Obviously, the next step is elevator play with the marines (and sometimes Marauders).
When I scout the 1/1/1 opening I usually go for a 3gate Robo play with an early expansion. I will usually have 2 to 3 immortals out and a decent gateway army. Due to the positioning however and the short distance between the T ramp and my high ground never seem to be able to find a good position to counter that all-in kind of push. Attacking from the low ground is usually the most successful way for me to deal with it but that leaves the main vulnerable to elevator play and in general the number of T forces seems to be overwhelming.
Has anyone encountered a similar situation and could you tell me how to best deal with it?
Thanks in advance!
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On November 17 2011 10:24 JOJOsc2news wrote:
Hey guys,
I have encountered a very specific situation that I tried to deal with numerous times as it is a very common strategy for Terrans at the moment.
The basic information:
Matchup: PvT
Map: Metalopolis
Spawn Location: Close by air
Terran Build: Essentiallly a 1/1/1 but varies in number of barracks/starports/factories.
The problem:
The problem is a strong timing push by the Terran with Tanks/Marines/Banshee/Medivac. Due to the spawn location the Terran moves out and is at my base (low ground by the watchtower) within seconds, he spots with Banshees and Medivacs and has tanks in Siege mode at the low ground. Obviously, the next step is elevator play with the marines (and sometimes Marauders).
When I scout the 1/1/1 opening I usually go for a 3gate Robo play with an early expansion. I will usually have 2 to 3 immortals out and a decent gateway army. Due to the positioning however and the short distance between the T ramp and my high ground never seem to be able to find a good position to counter that all-in kind of push. Attacking from the low ground is usually the most successful way for me to deal with it but that leaves the main vulnerable to elevator play and in general the number of T forces seems to be overwhelming.
Has anyone encountered a similar situation and could you tell me how to best deal with it?
Thanks in advance!
If you're opening 3-gate robo, you're going to be behind.
Metalopolis is tricky to do any kind of fast expand though, because the natural is so wide open.
Because IMO Terran is favored on that map.. just veto it.
It's too hard to deal with extremely close air with a wide open natural on that map.
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If you're opening 3-gate robo, you're going to be behind.
Metalopolis is tricky to do any kind of fast expand though, because the natural is so wide open.
Because IMO Terran is favored on that map.. just veto it.
It's too hard to deal with extremely close air with a wide open natural on that map.
That's exactly what I did. :/
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You should also veto XNC, because 1-1-1s on XNC... lol.
And then a third map of your choice.
Preferably Shattered, or Abyssal Caverns.
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I actually like XNC in PvT. I think a 1/1/1 is easier to hold off on XNC because you have much more time to see it coming and T reinforcements take a bit longer to get to your base.
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My second veto goes to Tal'Darim by the way because 4gate v 4gate in PvP might be a quick win but it is extremely boring I think.
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I played a game against zerg yesterday (I'm on lunch break in work atm so can't provide a replay I'm afraid) and lost to mass muta/ling. Straight macros loss. It happens, and I know what to build to counter it I just messed up. So I'm not asking "how to counter mutas".
What I've got is a unit composition question:
Is it better to go pure Archon or are phoenixes worthwhile if you can get them? Assuming you have the option to do so having already gotten a stargate and some initial Phoenixes (obviously reactive Phoenix is a terrible idea).
Basically I'd FFEd into stargate for a bit of harrass, up to six gates. Had a bunch of Phoenixes out and when I saw he was going for a ton of mutas I dropped twilight and templar archives and started to push out Archon/Zealot and upgrades. However I still had some excess so I ended up dropping an extra stargate and starting double-chronoing out Phoenixes when I had spare gas.
In the "climactic" battle (i.e. when I was forced to just all-in with what I had after he wiped out my entire natural mineral line with thirty mutas) I absolutely melted all of his lings but only get just under half his mutas or thereabouts (he'd managed to pin me to two bases while he was on four and had about forty or fifty mutas by the end). Ended up with a ton of zealots left over but no anti-air. The Phoenixes made some good kills but I just didn't have enough to kill the huge flock.
So basically, is Phoenix worth it in this case or is it better to save for more High Templar for Archons and Storm? Are Phoenix a worthwhile supplement to a Zealot/Archon/HT mix against a Ling/Muta army? Or would it have been better to put down a bunch of extra gateways and push out as many HTs and Archons as possible? I almost certainly would have lost this game eventually regardless of what I built (because he'd have just been able to remax and wipe me out after that fight) but I'm curious whether pushing out Phoenixes as part of my unit composition was sub-optimal.
Edit: Also, I did a quick forum search but came up with nothing. Is there any guide to a solid two-base Zealot/Archon build off of FFE detailed anywhere? The closest I came to was this fast Archon/Zealot pressure build but I'd rather expand early than one-base pressure.
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No. Phoenixes are terrible against mutas.
Even if you go pre-emptive stargate and phoenixes, they can save up for 8-10 mutas, and just a-move. Unless you CONSTANTLY micro your phoenixes, they just die to mutas.
I actually think the Liquipedia page should be edited... Phoenixes < Mutas
You're better off getting a faster blink or a better composition with more templar.
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United States8477 Posts
On November 17 2011 20:25 Lightspeaker wrote:I played a game against zerg yesterday (I'm on lunch break in work atm so can't provide a replay I'm afraid) and lost to mass muta/ling. Straight macros loss. It happens, and I know what to build to counter it I just messed up. So I'm not asking "how to counter mutas". What I've got is a unit composition question: Is it better to go pure Archon or are phoenixes worthwhile if you can get them? Assuming you have the option to do so having already gotten a stargate and some initial Phoenixes (obviously reactive Phoenix is a terrible idea). Basically I'd FFEd into stargate for a bit of harrass, up to six gates. Had a bunch of Phoenixes out and when I saw he was going for a ton of mutas I dropped twilight and templar archives and started to push out Archon/Zealot and upgrades. However I still had some excess so I ended up dropping an extra stargate and starting double-chronoing out Phoenixes when I had spare gas. In the "climactic" battle (i.e. when I was forced to just all-in with what I had after he wiped out my entire natural mineral line with thirty mutas) I absolutely melted all of his lings but only get just under half his mutas or thereabouts (he'd managed to pin me to two bases while he was on four and had about forty or fifty mutas by the end). Ended up with a ton of zealots left over but no anti-air. The Phoenixes made some good kills but I just didn't have enough to kill the huge flock. So basically, is Phoenix worth it in this case or is it better to save for more High Templar for Archons and Storm? Are Phoenix a worthwhile supplement to a Zealot/Archon/HT mix against a Ling/Muta army? Or would it have been better to put down a bunch of extra gateways and push out as many HTs and Archons as possible? I almost certainly would have lost this game eventually regardless of what I built (because he'd have just been able to remax and wipe me out after that fight) but I'm curious whether pushing out Phoenixes as part of my unit composition was sub-optimal. Edit: Also, I did a quick forum search but came up with nothing. Is there any guide to a solid two-base Zealot/Archon build off of FFE detailed anywhere? The closest I came to was this fast Archon/Zealot pressure build but I'd rather expand early than one-base pressure.
Phoenix are not a good choice unless you can totally shut down his first muta with your phoenix. That is, you probably want 2 stargates up and a few pheonix out before you scout the spire. They are not a very good supplement to your main army in that you'd prefer archons/templar. If you clump them up with your main army, you're getting rid of the mobility advantage of the phoenix.
In addition, focus on templar instead of archons, because if you don't get storm, your opponent can just counterattack your bases when you try to attack. The templar along with cannons act as zoning against mutas.
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So, I am in Diamond on the US servers should I start caring about a game plan? Or can I still continue to focus on building stuff well and using it well?
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United States8477 Posts
On November 18 2011 05:12 prom1se wrote:
So, I am in Diamond on the US servers should I start caring about a game plan? Or can I still continue to focus on building stuff well and using it well?
Getting to diamond without a game plan is pretty impressive. But yea, it's about time to start focusing on a plan. Find one build and grind it for each matchup. While doing the build try to understand what you're doing and why you're doing it. Also, you can figure out the deviations in your build based on what you scout.
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What's the best answer to two gate proxy gate?
If i get to their base and see nothing, what would be the best thing to do assuming that they're doing a 2 proxy gate?
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United States8477 Posts
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What is the best twilight robo opening?
ty
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EPT
