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[G] PvZ – Fast Archon Zealot Pressure
Purpose
I am about a 1200 Diamond player. I was having difficulties playing against mutaling as Protoss. When a Zerg player would go heavy roach or hydra, I would have no problems, but mutaling harass really put me under pressure. This build was developed primarily to combat mutaling. However, it also allows for a easy expansion and transitions out of it.
Background General Strategy
The key to defeating mutaling is to keep pressure on their front. Muta’s are great at harass, but very vulnerable to direct confrontations. You must make them fight your army, and you do this by attacking. The problem I encountered was the need for a very good balance with your gateway units. If you have too many zealots, your army gets crushed by the muta’s; too many stalkers and the lings overwhelm you. It is also easier for the Zerg player to switch the balance of his army to take advantage of your composition then it is for you to do the same.
+ Show Spoiler +Enter the Archon: The much derided Archon has one major advantage. It is neither weak to lings or muta’s. A single Archon (100/300) can kill three mutas (300/300), and with either upgraded weapons or shields can beat four. It also has one shots zerglings, has splash damage, and can absorb a lot of damage. With a couple zealots blocking for it, Archons will roll over any amount (within reason of course) of zerglings.
The idea of this build is to put pressure on the zerg at their expo before they can harass you with mutas and also before they can really start getting returns on that expo. You also will have enough minerals to expand with your first push.
The initial push will be a three gate push with about 5 zealots and an archon, supported by a stalker or two. It should happen about the same time zerg’s spire is completed.
Basic Build Order
The following is the basic build. Obviously timings will change somewhat due to real game conditions:
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon -> Scout
13 Gateway
14 Gas
15 Pylon
18 Zealot -> From this point forward make an additional zealot followed by 2 stalkers, then only zealots until the Archon is made.
20 Cyber
21 Gas
24 Warpgate Tech
24 Gateway
25 Twilight Council
26 Gateway
30 Templar Archives
Weaknesses
Roaches!
+ Show Spoiler +Roaches are by far the biggest threat to this build in the early game. An early roach rush can be especially dangerous. If you see roaches, I recommend delaying or abandoning this build completely and get stalkers. However, if you see roaches, you know that mutaling is not on the table immediately.
Very Fast Expand
+ Show Spoiler +If a zerg goes hatch before pool, they may have too much stuff when your push come. If you see them hatch before pool, throw down a second gate sooner and do some harass with zealots and other gateway units. Even though your archons will be delayed, their economy and build will also be delayed. You just can’t let them expo unchallenged. However, as this build timing is mainly gas driven, if you use mainly zealots in your early pressure your Archon timing will not be radically altered.
Ling Rush
+ Show Spoiler +Every Protoss needs to be aware of 10 pool or earlier pressure. If you scout early lings, defend in your favorite way. Either a second gate, chrono’ed zealots out of the first gate, or a forge and cannons will work. As with the very fast expand, since none of these options require gas, your overall timing will not be hurt much. Zealots will compose the bulk of your army, so building more, sooner doesn’t hurt. Also, +1 weapons or +1 shields are very nice for the Archons, so getting an early forge will allow you to get those upgrades sooner.
Mid Game Infestor/Hyrda
+ Show Spoiler +If you have chosen to stay in this build even though they aren’t going mutaling, you must be aware of the devastating potention of fugal growth + hydras. Hydra’s can stay out of range of your Archons and focus them down freely. This isn’t a worry on your initial push though. If they go early infestors, they won’t have enough Hyrdas at that time to take advantage of your snared units.
Brain Dead Archons
+ Show Spoiler +I don’t know if it is because two Templars are fighting for control or what, but let’s face it, Archons aren’t the brightest crayon in the Protoss box. They will stop and shoot a floating Overlord, extractor, larva, etc. You must stay on top of them on your push, or your army will leave them behind. This is especially true of your zealots. Archons are also difficult to mirco. With their short range, mutas can dance in and out of range. A stalker or two in support makes this more difficult for zerg to do.
One great thing about Archons though, is that they fully take advantage of the Protoss gimmick of shield. If their shields are getting low, disengage (preferably with your whole army if you can), and let the shields charge. This occurs very quickly, much more quickly than zerg’s health. Once you are full, go back and finish the job. With a well-placed pylon, you can also reinforce during this time.
Transitions
Continued Mutaling
+ Show Spoiler +If the zerg continues to try to play mutaling there is no reason to transition. As the scale increases, the odds shift more and more in favor of zealot/Archon. Make sure you continue to get upgrades, especially the shield upgrades. Shield upgrades will drastically reduce the mutas’ splash damage.
Roach/Hydra
+ Show Spoiler +This build is by far weakest to Roach/Hydra. While Archons will easily kill Hydras, the Roaches sitting in front get in the way of both the zealots and the Archons, and tank far too much damage. Fortunately (and obviously), if they are going Roach/Hydra they are NOT going mutaling. I think most protoss players are comfortable against Roach/Hyrda, and you can use your favorite build at this point.
The transition to High Templar play is simple here (research storm), but it optional. You also have easy access to Blink. Upon seeing roaches you could also plan to lay down a Robotics Facility. This gives you Immortals to deal with the immediate threat and lets you transition to colossi later if you choose. Remember, at the heart of this build it is 3-Gate pressure and expand. 3-Gate expand is very flexible for Protoss. Gas isn’t that much of an issue; as you were planning on pumping out Archons at the cost of 300 a pop. Making stalkers, Immortals, or Colossi is cheap by comparison, even with the extra buildings.
Mass Hydras
+ Show Spoiler +This build will also work well against mass Hydras. However, Infesters will ruin your day instantly at this point. If you continue with Zealot/Archon make sure you get upgrades, especially shields and + 1 weapons. A +1 weapons will allow Archons to two shot Hydras. Obviously the transitions listed above for Roach/Hydra are viable here.
Replays
The replays do not always do justice to the strategy. There is a reason I am only a 1200 diamond player; my macro slips often during the push, and my micro can be quite awful. When watching, even if I don't expand with my push, notice that the money is available to do so. There are also more replays I will be adding in the future.
With that ugly disclaimer out of the way, here are the replays:
The Victories
+ Show Spoiler +Mutaling after a 7 pool. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156607.jpg) One base Mutaling ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156377.jpg) Added more Stalkers to my army after encountering Roaches. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156604.jpg) Another victory by adding Stalkers against Roaches ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156380.jpg) Against Pure Hydra ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156603.jpg) First push fails, but still beats ling/hyrda/muta ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156602.jpg)
The Defeats
+ Show Spoiler +Loss to Roaches ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156608.jpg) Loss to FE Mutaling. I let the FE go unharassed for too long. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156606.jpg)
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As a 1600+ Zerg player, I firmly believe that Archons are the most underused unit in the Protoss arsenal these days.
They tank like ultras, and dish out damage like nukes... without the AoE, of course.
From my end, I've yet to figure out how to really handle them, so I guess that's some sort of an endorsement, OP. =p
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Hellofa first post. Nicely done. However, this is very snipy build.
Consider this:
At first scout, you can see 1. FE 2.ling rush 3. baneling or roaches 4. fast lair
FE translates into 2,3, or 4 so lets consider those three. This build is only good for option 4. It will however keep you alive against ling rush.
Then, if he went lair, the zerg still has 2 choices: hydras or mutals.
So, this build cannot be used preemtively because theres you literally cannot predict if zerg going mutals(of course, depends on the map/player preference). I would much rather use a build where I fast expand so that I can support a templar army if the need be.
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why not go for one or two base zealot/templar mix to begin with, then just turn into archons when ready? depending on what you scout you could go zealots with high templar or even dark templar maybe since they both make archons. i feel like a swarm of zerglins or whatever will be weaker against zealot tanks with storms going down and then archons hitting them. also i think dts are underused as well, although if zerg has a lair its easy to get overseer. 45 damage cloaked units that can go into archons sounds worth testing imo.
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Zealot/Templar takes longer to kick into effect because you need to research Storm (and the Amulet to make them more effective by a long shot).
This feels like a 4 gate that was changed around to fit in Archons. Shouldn't it be a transition rather than a rush for Archons instead?
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Well... at least you got the fundamental army comp correct.
You cannot go templar on 1 base. You simply don't have enough gas to justify spending 150/100 then 150/200 just to get the archives. Then it's 300 gas for a single archon. Too much too early.
There any many routes to zealot/archon, but fundamentally the builds all should look something like this:
-FE (forge, 1 gate, whatever)
-1 gate into fast twilight
-add 3 gates + archives OR shrine
-push on 2 archons + mass zealot
Something around that usually works. DT shrine gives you a chance to do harass and even cripple zerg before you go in for the killing blow. They're also cheaper gas-wise by a bit than HT archons. Templar Archives gets you access to storm though, which of course cuts through everything really nicely and is basically required vs zerg past a point.
Basically, my standard PvZ army consists of archon/zealot/immortal/templar now. I get some stalkers as support but I really like that archon/zealot/immortal mix and templar are key to beating banelings and hydra, so you really want them too.
As for DT vs HT. I don't like DT unless zerg goes for a very fast 3rd, since DT is a good way to punish them being spread out. A zerg who gets some heavy army before taking a 3rd is a lot harder to harass, and also has more units earlier so you need storm faster.
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Honest question, but wouldn't a phoenix + zealot composition be favorable vs Muta/ling? And is easier to tech to? Gonna watch vid later though, cus it's interesting ^_^
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Good strat. I am going to try it. But i think it might work a bit better with DT's (less gas) and some harrass / defence options (snipe overseer while defending).
Also nice follow up for end game --> get a mothership and vortex his army + your archons. (except if he has banelings ofcourse).
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On October 11 2010 15:03 Floophead_III wrote:
As for DT vs HT. I don't like DT unless zerg goes for a very fast 3rd, since DT is a good way to punish them being spread out. A zerg who gets some heavy army before taking a 3rd is a lot harder to harass, and also has more units earlier so you need storm faster.
actually I'm playing around with early DT for archons when zerg bunkers his 2nd with many spines (which is 99% muta-play), take my third quickly, defend with stalkers, harass with DTs and go stalker/archon...HTs very delayed - reason: if you make archons out of DTs you save 50 gas, which is HUGE; dark shrine is only 50 gas more expensive than archives and for archives to be worth it you need storm research...and pretty much amulet research too;
so after your first two DTs merged to an archon this has already payed off gas-wise; not only that, but DTs force your opponent to spend quite some gas on overseers too;
in fact, I wanna do some testing today how much mutas you need to take on two archons
last but not least: stalkers/archons do "ok" also vs zerg tier 3 units - often your attack will occur at a point when your oponent tries to switch to ultralisks; archons are no hard counter, but an archon/stalker-force does still pretty good vs ultras if you don't run in with stalkers first stupidly; I've never understood why archons are listed as "weak" vs ultras on liquipedia; they do bonus damage vs ultras and don't receive bonus-damage from their attack since they are non armored (if I'm not mistaken)
I also agree that archons are underused vs zerg - especially vs muta-lisk-heavy zergs; interestingly, many matches evolve around stalker/HT and once the protoss has run out of mana and merges his HTs to archons he does even slightly "better" because archons cannot be sniped out and are awsome tanks too
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This is a strat that I have been doing for a while in 2s you'd have to be pretty bold to do it in 1v1
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Nice strat. I saw that you get zealot legs in most of your replays. Why is that?
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I would really assume that DT's would be the way to go with htis build if you're not going to use storm. DT's seem like they will get you some decent milage, especially if you can use them to snipe zerg tech like his spire
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Im with Eesha, why not go pheonix? they do extra damage to light, if you make a early stargate you can easily scout the spire and harass. If a spire is scouted warpin a second stargate and keep map controll, refusing the zergs overlords to scout. He needs spore crawlers wich cripple his economy. upgraded zealots should be more than enough for the ling, and because of your pheonixes you know when he switches tech. hell with air controll like that you could go collossi/zealot without to much worries.
However if zerg FE before pool phenixes will be to late pressure perhaps and zergs economy will be to good.
If protoss FE into pheonixes maybe scouting will be to late? in that case maybe research hallucination for scouting phenixes.
Maybe hallucinated pheonix to scout is good for the archon build...albeit way to gas heavy for 1 base....
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I'm around 1300 Diamond Zerg player and have faced this a few times.
It has major issues with fast expands (14 hatch is what I do) as you pointed out. One of the bigger issues though is that zealot pressure on the fast expand leads to roaches (which you also have issues with). Two more problems you have not mentioned are spine crawlers (which pick off archons nicely) and roach burrow (and burrow move) because you have no detection.
Remember that fast roaches outrun your zealots and spire timing is about the same as roach speed + burrow (and burrowed move is right around the corner).
The DT idea is a good one as DTs force a bunch of costly reactions and put zerg on the back foot and you really want to avoid Zerg being aggressive with roaches.
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I found archons to be insanely good vs zerg as well. The one problem you will have is with a Z that switches to a roach heavy army instead of muta/ling/ultra.
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time to start using it...
zergs just mass lings with a couple mutas now. so annoying =\
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On October 11 2010 13:08 Monsoon wrote:
[G] PvZ – Fast Archon Zealot Pressure
Mid Game Infestor/Hyrda
[spoiler]If you have chosen to stay in this build even though they aren’t going mutaling, you must be aware of the devastating potention of fugal growth + hydras. Hydra’s can stay out of range of your Archons and focus them down freely. This isn’t a worry on your initial push though. If they go early infestors, they won’t have enough Hyrdas at that time to take advantage of your snared units
If they end up going for inf/hydra, HT's are actually a great place to be. Feedback destroys infestors and storm + chargelots rapes hydras.
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On October 11 2010 15:03 Eesha wrote:
Honest question, but wouldn't a phoenix + zealot composition be favorable vs Muta/ling? And is easier to tech to? Gonna watch vid later though, cus it's interesting ^_^
As the OP said the problem toss has against muta ling is that it is a composition nightmare. Zealots aren't really good vs lings in the early game so not having enough of them will lead to a lose and not having enough AA will lead to mutas eating your zealots. The problem with going phoenix is that you have to
A. build the right number of both units.
B. hope they're going mutas or you convert to phoenix harass.
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Thank you guys for the replies. I will try to answer some of the questions that have been asked in this post.
Why not Dark Templars?
This is something I've considered. The early harass is very tempting. However, the reason why I didn't go this route is that they make for more expensive Archons (250/250) vs (100/300). I like having the extra minerals for zealots or an expansion. It also frees minerals for a forge or other upgrades. Also, Storm is just an upgrade away by going HT's. I will need to play around with DT's though, because it is a nice variation that gets you to the same place.
Nice strat. I saw that you get zealot legs in most of your replays. Why is that?
I find that zealot legs helps keep your Archon alive. They get in front of the Archon fast against lings, spine crawlers, and even roaches. With how hard the Archon is to micro, this helps. However, it is pricey, and costs the same as +1 shields. I am not sure which helps more at this point, but the legs do help you transition into a normal chargelot/HT build.
Im with Eesha, why not go pheonix?
Phoenix play is very effective. It just wasn't what I as going for here. Having options is nice!
You cannot go templar on 1 base. You simply don't have enough gas to justify spending 150/100 then 150/200 just to get the archives. Then it's 300 gas for a single archon. Too much too early.
I am always very uncomfortable FE'ing against Zerg. This push gives me the freedom to expand without worry. It also keeps the gas and minerals well balanced. By using gateway only on a similar push, you have to include sentries simply because your mineral usage far outstrips the gas usage. While sentries are nice, they aren't required. You are money broke, but not gas broke. The gas is definitely available for the initial push. After you expand, gas isn't an issue.
At first scout, you can see 1. FE 2.ling rush 3. baneling or roaches 4. fast lair
FE translates into 2,3, or 4 so lets consider those three. This build is only good for option 4. It will however keep you alive against ling rush.
Yes, the Zerg has plenty of options. However, I like to use Day9's concept of "Forcing" when thinking about this build. If your oppenent goes Mutaling, you should win outright. Then you have to worry about dealing with the other options. It handles lings without any issue. Banelings are dangerous to your Zealots, but your Archons can absorb 15 Baneling hits. Even pure hydras fall pretty hard against Zealot Archon (see replay versus Hydra). The only one of these that is the threat is Roaches. Don't lose to Roaches and you are okay. But as a Protoss play, I am very happy if I am facing Roaches.
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What can i say Monsoon i really like this build gonna try it out and see how it works.
Thank a lot 
Hope i dont get too much Roach/Hydra rushed.
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EPT
