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[G] PvZ – Fast Archon Zealot Pressure
Purpose
I am about a 1200 Diamond player. I was having difficulties playing against mutaling as Protoss. When a Zerg player would go heavy roach or hydra, I would have no problems, but mutaling harass really put me under pressure. This build was developed primarily to combat mutaling. However, it also allows for a easy expansion and transitions out of it.
Background General Strategy
The key to defeating mutaling is to keep pressure on their front. Muta’s are great at harass, but very vulnerable to direct confrontations. You must make them fight your army, and you do this by attacking. The problem I encountered was the need for a very good balance with your gateway units. If you have too many zealots, your army gets crushed by the muta’s; too many stalkers and the lings overwhelm you. It is also easier for the Zerg player to switch the balance of his army to take advantage of your composition then it is for you to do the same.
+ Show Spoiler +Enter the Archon: The much derided Archon has one major advantage. It is neither weak to lings or muta’s. A single Archon (100/300) can kill three mutas (300/300), and with either upgraded weapons or shields can beat four. It also has one shots zerglings, has splash damage, and can absorb a lot of damage. With a couple zealots blocking for it, Archons will roll over any amount (within reason of course) of zerglings.
The idea of this build is to put pressure on the zerg at their expo before they can harass you with mutas and also before they can really start getting returns on that expo. You also will have enough minerals to expand with your first push.
The initial push will be a three gate push with about 5 zealots and an archon, supported by a stalker or two. It should happen about the same time zerg’s spire is completed.
Basic Build Order
The following is the basic build. Obviously timings will change somewhat due to real game conditions:
+ Show Spoiler +9 Pylon -> Scout
13 Gateway
14 Gas
15 Pylon
18 Zealot -> From this point forward make an additional zealot followed by 2 stalkers, then only zealots until the Archon is made.
20 Cyber
21 Gas
24 Warpgate Tech
24 Gateway
25 Twilight Council
26 Gateway
30 Templar Archives
Weaknesses
Roaches!
+ Show Spoiler +Roaches are by far the biggest threat to this build in the early game. An early roach rush can be especially dangerous. If you see roaches, I recommend delaying or abandoning this build completely and get stalkers. However, if you see roaches, you know that mutaling is not on the table immediately.
Very Fast Expand
+ Show Spoiler +If a zerg goes hatch before pool, they may have too much stuff when your push come. If you see them hatch before pool, throw down a second gate sooner and do some harass with zealots and other gateway units. Even though your archons will be delayed, their economy and build will also be delayed. You just can’t let them expo unchallenged. However, as this build timing is mainly gas driven, if you use mainly zealots in your early pressure your Archon timing will not be radically altered.
Ling Rush
+ Show Spoiler +Every Protoss needs to be aware of 10 pool or earlier pressure. If you scout early lings, defend in your favorite way. Either a second gate, chrono’ed zealots out of the first gate, or a forge and cannons will work. As with the very fast expand, since none of these options require gas, your overall timing will not be hurt much. Zealots will compose the bulk of your army, so building more, sooner doesn’t hurt. Also, +1 weapons or +1 shields are very nice for the Archons, so getting an early forge will allow you to get those upgrades sooner.
Mid Game Infestor/Hyrda
+ Show Spoiler +If you have chosen to stay in this build even though they aren’t going mutaling, you must be aware of the devastating potention of fugal growth + hydras. Hydra’s can stay out of range of your Archons and focus them down freely. This isn’t a worry on your initial push though. If they go early infestors, they won’t have enough Hyrdas at that time to take advantage of your snared units.
Brain Dead Archons
+ Show Spoiler +I don’t know if it is because two Templars are fighting for control or what, but let’s face it, Archons aren’t the brightest crayon in the Protoss box. They will stop and shoot a floating Overlord, extractor, larva, etc. You must stay on top of them on your push, or your army will leave them behind. This is especially true of your zealots. Archons are also difficult to mirco. With their short range, mutas can dance in and out of range. A stalker or two in support makes this more difficult for zerg to do.
One great thing about Archons though, is that they fully take advantage of the Protoss gimmick of shield. If their shields are getting low, disengage (preferably with your whole army if you can), and let the shields charge. This occurs very quickly, much more quickly than zerg’s health. Once you are full, go back and finish the job. With a well-placed pylon, you can also reinforce during this time.
Transitions
Continued Mutaling
+ Show Spoiler +If the zerg continues to try to play mutaling there is no reason to transition. As the scale increases, the odds shift more and more in favor of zealot/Archon. Make sure you continue to get upgrades, especially the shield upgrades. Shield upgrades will drastically reduce the mutas’ splash damage.
Roach/Hydra
+ Show Spoiler +This build is by far weakest to Roach/Hydra. While Archons will easily kill Hydras, the Roaches sitting in front get in the way of both the zealots and the Archons, and tank far too much damage. Fortunately (and obviously), if they are going Roach/Hydra they are NOT going mutaling. I think most protoss players are comfortable against Roach/Hyrda, and you can use your favorite build at this point.
The transition to High Templar play is simple here (research storm), but it optional. You also have easy access to Blink. Upon seeing roaches you could also plan to lay down a Robotics Facility. This gives you Immortals to deal with the immediate threat and lets you transition to colossi later if you choose. Remember, at the heart of this build it is 3-Gate pressure and expand. 3-Gate expand is very flexible for Protoss. Gas isn’t that much of an issue; as you were planning on pumping out Archons at the cost of 300 a pop. Making stalkers, Immortals, or Colossi is cheap by comparison, even with the extra buildings.
Mass Hydras
+ Show Spoiler +This build will also work well against mass Hydras. However, Infesters will ruin your day instantly at this point. If you continue with Zealot/Archon make sure you get upgrades, especially shields and + 1 weapons. A +1 weapons will allow Archons to two shot Hydras. Obviously the transitions listed above for Roach/Hydra are viable here.
Replays
The replays do not always do justice to the strategy. There is a reason I am only a 1200 diamond player; my macro slips often during the push, and my micro can be quite awful. When watching, even if I don't expand with my push, notice that the money is available to do so. There are also more replays I will be adding in the future.
With that ugly disclaimer out of the way, here are the replays:
The Victories
+ Show Spoiler +Mutaling after a 7 pool. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156607.jpg) One base Mutaling ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156377.jpg) Added more Stalkers to my army after encountering Roaches. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156604.jpg) Another victory by adding Stalkers against Roaches ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156380.jpg) Against Pure Hydra ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156603.jpg) First push fails, but still beats ling/hyrda/muta ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156602.jpg)
The Defeats
+ Show Spoiler +Loss to Roaches ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156608.jpg) Loss to FE Mutaling. I let the FE go unharassed for too long. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156606.jpg)
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As a 1600+ Zerg player, I firmly believe that Archons are the most underused unit in the Protoss arsenal these days.
They tank like ultras, and dish out damage like nukes... without the AoE, of course.
From my end, I've yet to figure out how to really handle them, so I guess that's some sort of an endorsement, OP. =p
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Hellofa first post. Nicely done. However, this is very snipy build.
Consider this:
At first scout, you can see 1. FE 2.ling rush 3. baneling or roaches 4. fast lair
FE translates into 2,3, or 4 so lets consider those three. This build is only good for option 4. It will however keep you alive against ling rush.
Then, if he went lair, the zerg still has 2 choices: hydras or mutals.
So, this build cannot be used preemtively because theres you literally cannot predict if zerg going mutals(of course, depends on the map/player preference). I would much rather use a build where I fast expand so that I can support a templar army if the need be.
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why not go for one or two base zealot/templar mix to begin with, then just turn into archons when ready? depending on what you scout you could go zealots with high templar or even dark templar maybe since they both make archons. i feel like a swarm of zerglins or whatever will be weaker against zealot tanks with storms going down and then archons hitting them. also i think dts are underused as well, although if zerg has a lair its easy to get overseer. 45 damage cloaked units that can go into archons sounds worth testing imo.
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Zealot/Templar takes longer to kick into effect because you need to research Storm (and the Amulet to make them more effective by a long shot).
This feels like a 4 gate that was changed around to fit in Archons. Shouldn't it be a transition rather than a rush for Archons instead?
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Well... at least you got the fundamental army comp correct.
You cannot go templar on 1 base. You simply don't have enough gas to justify spending 150/100 then 150/200 just to get the archives. Then it's 300 gas for a single archon. Too much too early.
There any many routes to zealot/archon, but fundamentally the builds all should look something like this:
-FE (forge, 1 gate, whatever)
-1 gate into fast twilight
-add 3 gates + archives OR shrine
-push on 2 archons + mass zealot
Something around that usually works. DT shrine gives you a chance to do harass and even cripple zerg before you go in for the killing blow. They're also cheaper gas-wise by a bit than HT archons. Templar Archives gets you access to storm though, which of course cuts through everything really nicely and is basically required vs zerg past a point.
Basically, my standard PvZ army consists of archon/zealot/immortal/templar now. I get some stalkers as support but I really like that archon/zealot/immortal mix and templar are key to beating banelings and hydra, so you really want them too.
As for DT vs HT. I don't like DT unless zerg goes for a very fast 3rd, since DT is a good way to punish them being spread out. A zerg who gets some heavy army before taking a 3rd is a lot harder to harass, and also has more units earlier so you need storm faster.
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Honest question, but wouldn't a phoenix + zealot composition be favorable vs Muta/ling? And is easier to tech to? Gonna watch vid later though, cus it's interesting ^_^
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Good strat. I am going to try it. But i think it might work a bit better with DT's (less gas) and some harrass / defence options (snipe overseer while defending).
Also nice follow up for end game --> get a mothership and vortex his army + your archons. (except if he has banelings ofcourse).
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On October 11 2010 15:03 Floophead_III wrote:
As for DT vs HT. I don't like DT unless zerg goes for a very fast 3rd, since DT is a good way to punish them being spread out. A zerg who gets some heavy army before taking a 3rd is a lot harder to harass, and also has more units earlier so you need storm faster.
actually I'm playing around with early DT for archons when zerg bunkers his 2nd with many spines (which is 99% muta-play), take my third quickly, defend with stalkers, harass with DTs and go stalker/archon...HTs very delayed - reason: if you make archons out of DTs you save 50 gas, which is HUGE; dark shrine is only 50 gas more expensive than archives and for archives to be worth it you need storm research...and pretty much amulet research too;
so after your first two DTs merged to an archon this has already payed off gas-wise; not only that, but DTs force your opponent to spend quite some gas on overseers too;
in fact, I wanna do some testing today how much mutas you need to take on two archons
last but not least: stalkers/archons do "ok" also vs zerg tier 3 units - often your attack will occur at a point when your oponent tries to switch to ultralisks; archons are no hard counter, but an archon/stalker-force does still pretty good vs ultras if you don't run in with stalkers first stupidly; I've never understood why archons are listed as "weak" vs ultras on liquipedia; they do bonus damage vs ultras and don't receive bonus-damage from their attack since they are non armored (if I'm not mistaken)
I also agree that archons are underused vs zerg - especially vs muta-lisk-heavy zergs; interestingly, many matches evolve around stalker/HT and once the protoss has run out of mana and merges his HTs to archons he does even slightly "better" because archons cannot be sniped out and are awsome tanks too
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This is a strat that I have been doing for a while in 2s you'd have to be pretty bold to do it in 1v1
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Nice strat. I saw that you get zealot legs in most of your replays. Why is that?
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I would really assume that DT's would be the way to go with htis build if you're not going to use storm. DT's seem like they will get you some decent milage, especially if you can use them to snipe zerg tech like his spire
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Im with Eesha, why not go pheonix? they do extra damage to light, if you make a early stargate you can easily scout the spire and harass. If a spire is scouted warpin a second stargate and keep map controll, refusing the zergs overlords to scout. He needs spore crawlers wich cripple his economy. upgraded zealots should be more than enough for the ling, and because of your pheonixes you know when he switches tech. hell with air controll like that you could go collossi/zealot without to much worries.
However if zerg FE before pool phenixes will be to late pressure perhaps and zergs economy will be to good.
If protoss FE into pheonixes maybe scouting will be to late? in that case maybe research hallucination for scouting phenixes.
Maybe hallucinated pheonix to scout is good for the archon build...albeit way to gas heavy for 1 base....
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I'm around 1300 Diamond Zerg player and have faced this a few times.
It has major issues with fast expands (14 hatch is what I do) as you pointed out. One of the bigger issues though is that zealot pressure on the fast expand leads to roaches (which you also have issues with). Two more problems you have not mentioned are spine crawlers (which pick off archons nicely) and roach burrow (and burrow move) because you have no detection.
Remember that fast roaches outrun your zealots and spire timing is about the same as roach speed + burrow (and burrowed move is right around the corner).
The DT idea is a good one as DTs force a bunch of costly reactions and put zerg on the back foot and you really want to avoid Zerg being aggressive with roaches.
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I found archons to be insanely good vs zerg as well. The one problem you will have is with a Z that switches to a roach heavy army instead of muta/ling/ultra.
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time to start using it...
zergs just mass lings with a couple mutas now. so annoying =\
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On October 11 2010 13:08 Monsoon wrote:
[G] PvZ – Fast Archon Zealot Pressure
Mid Game Infestor/Hyrda
[spoiler]If you have chosen to stay in this build even though they aren’t going mutaling, you must be aware of the devastating potention of fugal growth + hydras. Hydra’s can stay out of range of your Archons and focus them down freely. This isn’t a worry on your initial push though. If they go early infestors, they won’t have enough Hyrdas at that time to take advantage of your snared units
If they end up going for inf/hydra, HT's are actually a great place to be. Feedback destroys infestors and storm + chargelots rapes hydras.
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On October 11 2010 15:03 Eesha wrote:
Honest question, but wouldn't a phoenix + zealot composition be favorable vs Muta/ling? And is easier to tech to? Gonna watch vid later though, cus it's interesting ^_^
As the OP said the problem toss has against muta ling is that it is a composition nightmare. Zealots aren't really good vs lings in the early game so not having enough of them will lead to a lose and not having enough AA will lead to mutas eating your zealots. The problem with going phoenix is that you have to
A. build the right number of both units.
B. hope they're going mutas or you convert to phoenix harass.
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Thank you guys for the replies. I will try to answer some of the questions that have been asked in this post.
Why not Dark Templars?
This is something I've considered. The early harass is very tempting. However, the reason why I didn't go this route is that they make for more expensive Archons (250/250) vs (100/300). I like having the extra minerals for zealots or an expansion. It also frees minerals for a forge or other upgrades. Also, Storm is just an upgrade away by going HT's. I will need to play around with DT's though, because it is a nice variation that gets you to the same place.
Nice strat. I saw that you get zealot legs in most of your replays. Why is that?
I find that zealot legs helps keep your Archon alive. They get in front of the Archon fast against lings, spine crawlers, and even roaches. With how hard the Archon is to micro, this helps. However, it is pricey, and costs the same as +1 shields. I am not sure which helps more at this point, but the legs do help you transition into a normal chargelot/HT build.
Im with Eesha, why not go pheonix?
Phoenix play is very effective. It just wasn't what I as going for here. Having options is nice!
You cannot go templar on 1 base. You simply don't have enough gas to justify spending 150/100 then 150/200 just to get the archives. Then it's 300 gas for a single archon. Too much too early.
I am always very uncomfortable FE'ing against Zerg. This push gives me the freedom to expand without worry. It also keeps the gas and minerals well balanced. By using gateway only on a similar push, you have to include sentries simply because your mineral usage far outstrips the gas usage. While sentries are nice, they aren't required. You are money broke, but not gas broke. The gas is definitely available for the initial push. After you expand, gas isn't an issue.
At first scout, you can see 1. FE 2.ling rush 3. baneling or roaches 4. fast lair
FE translates into 2,3, or 4 so lets consider those three. This build is only good for option 4. It will however keep you alive against ling rush.
Yes, the Zerg has plenty of options. However, I like to use Day9's concept of "Forcing" when thinking about this build. If your oppenent goes Mutaling, you should win outright. Then you have to worry about dealing with the other options. It handles lings without any issue. Banelings are dangerous to your Zealots, but your Archons can absorb 15 Baneling hits. Even pure hydras fall pretty hard against Zealot Archon (see replay versus Hydra). The only one of these that is the threat is Roaches. Don't lose to Roaches and you are okay. But as a Protoss play, I am very happy if I am facing Roaches.
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What can i say Monsoon i really like this build gonna try it out and see how it works.
Thank a lot 
Hope i dont get too much Roach/Hydra rushed.
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this only works if your opponent don't got a clue, if he just play some curruptors (against te phoenixes he got the game, because of the masse mutas he will be having, vs archons a zergs muta count will be so crusial that he will crush your archons, I have practiced this build the last 2 months myself, and if he scout it and know the stragegi your templar achrive or dark shine will get crushed by mutas which make s you stuck on stalkers and you will lose the game, but if you go blink stalkers first to try and defend the first couble of muta harras you can actually pull it off.
If your opponent is cought off guard it works well, but again in patch 1.2 this build wont be a variable since the roaches can just kill our fe due to the range incease so why bother perfecting this build anyway.
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On October 12 2010 01:12 PangO wrote:What can i say Monsoon i really like this build gonna try it out and see how it works. Thank a lot Hope i dont get too much Roach/Hydra rushed.
Thank you. Post some replays later if you don't mind. I am curious to watch the community's take on it.
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This seemed a bit sketchy, I watched a few of your replays and noticed you just had so much money banked up most of the time 2000k plus mostly... But then I just tried it. I ended up having ALOT of resources also because of the lack of stalkers and other expensive units. I think I could have had an extra forge as well.
The Archon opening is extremely strong because all the zerg units are Bio! and Archons do a whopping 35 dmg (i think) + splash! and +1 up is 39! thats almost 2 shot to an unupgraded hydra. I found myself having extra minerals laying around and was able to throw down more gates and expo faster than I usually would while still being able to be aggressive and fend off pushes.
My opponent went with the armored roach after seeing Archons and stalkers were just not cutting it so i decided to get sneaky on him and throw up a Dark Shrine and that really won me the game. But the Archon Open was Def solid. This is a 1500+ Diamond player and he is rank 6 in his divison.
Great post OP. Thanks for giving Toss another great path to go!
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-156783.jpg)
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I've attempted something similar to this myself. Certainly not as sophisticated as having a build order. But I've found that after you hold off the initial ling attack early on, you can generally do a small counter attack with just zealots to take the pressure off long enough to get your natural up. That can usually take care of the gas problem. Also, an Archon with +1 weapons can 1-shot a zergling. A handful of Archons can easily survive a zergling/baneling attack on their own as well, depending on the precise number of units of course.
Personally I prefer DTs because 90% of the time I have way more minerals than gas so I can easily afford the extra minerals and prefer the slightly reduced gas cost on Dark Templar while still making plenty of zealots. Also because I'm avoiding HTs because everyone uses them.  Hehe... :D
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I'm not really sure what's the point of this build, TBH. The issues protoss has with mutaling is containment and harass, not direct army confrontations. The right mixture of gateway units is more than enough to handle mutaling in a straight, equal cost battle.
Archons are versatile vs zerg yes, but IMO still not cost effective. The cost of 1 archon (assuming 2 merged HTs) is about the cost of 3 sentries, and sentries are awesome vs mutaling.
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On October 12 2010 01:16 Monsoon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 01:12 PangO wrote:What can i say Monsoon i really like this build gonna try it out and see how it works. Thank a lot Hope i dont get too much Roach/Hydra rushed. Thank you. Post some replays later if you don't mind. I am curious to watch the community's take on it.
Just won 2 games with it lol.
I'll post replays as soon as posible.
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I really like this. I might even consider getting blink since you got the Twilight, its so invaluable when dealing with mutas. Archons are incredible vs lings
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I agree it with this not being a direct muta counter or w/e because usually gateway units can handle that just fine, but I do think it has opened the doors to making Archons a more usable unit. Although I do think they need maybe a small range upgrade...
You have to do some scouting though with this build because if they have early roach, its good game for sure, Roaches dominate this.
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I'm guessing this is inspired on Zanez's thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151798 (this could answer Skyro's question about this build).
It's good to have a clear BO and good replays to check the concept much better.
Could be nice to squeeze a Hallucination research somewhere, to scout and know exactly what he's doing and what changes on your composition you should make. I feel like I'm going blind with archons and I don't like being blind =P.
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On October 12 2010 02:36 AlexXx wrote:Great post OP. Thanks for giving Toss another great path to go!
Thanks for posting that replay Alex. I'm glad you stuck with it after the initial push didn't do much. It works surprisingly well even against that moderate number of roaches. It was once the roaches starting coming out in mass that there were issues. That said, I think every Protoss player is more than happy to play against mass roach.
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I need to try this, mutaling is by far my biggest headache when playing.
I do agree Protoss love playing vs mass roach though... 2 immortals (easy to get since they only need robo) supported by pretty much anything and FFing roaches pretty much kill shitloads of them.
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I don't think this build is weak vs hydra/infestor at all. You're going to be warping in High Templars all the time, and even without kydarian amulet they can pop off a feedback (doesn't require any tech) before merging. Although of course you'll need to micro well, as they have pretty much the same range.
Hmm actually, this might be better response vs mutaling, because if you go with phoenix they can be easily countered by corruptors. Since they already went muta they probably also have a leg-up on air upgrades, which would make corruptors even more tricky. Because mutas are so gas heavy they probably don't have very many banelings. But if they do, you'll need the archons to block the banelings, since they don't have the [Light] tag.
Hmm it might be best to cut some zealots and channel extra minerals into cannons to help defend your pylon outposts and bases. I'm just thinking that while this build might be great at killing the units, the sheer speed and mobility of both mutas and lings are going to make you really vulnerable vs counterattacks. Perhaps open zealot/phoenix early pressure into zealot/archon/templar.
I wouldn't think that roach would be too big a deal vs this combo, because the archons have enough range they can fire from behind zealots, which negates much of the range disadvantage. Burrowed roaches might be a real problem though because they can recharge health much faster than you can recharge shields. In that case you'll obviously need to slam out a robobay just for observers. Maybe you could cover it with offensive cannons but I think they would be a big risk to take.
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Seems very interesting build. Must test when I get to home :D
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Zealot/Archon isn't actually -that- bad vs. Mass Roach if you aren't in a confined space.
Zealots actually fare very well against Roaches (I think a Zealot actually wins in a 1v1 no upgrades) Zealots tank and deal good damage, Archons sit back, and deal good damage + splash.
Doing this build I always favor a very fast +1 weapons, followed by a +2 weapons (You already have the council) getting armor upgrades when going very heavy into Archons simply cuts into your gas, because the Shield is unaffected by armor upgrades.
Charge actually really helps against Speed zerglings, as strange as it sounds.
It really prevents them from getting a surround, because charge intercepts them before they can do it. Against non-speed zealots, the lings get an instant concave around the zealots, shutting off retreats and dealing maximum damage, but with charge it creates an instant wall, preventing, or atleast slowing down, the surround. Speed zerglings are actually really good against zealots because of numbers and the surround, but if you cut off the surround they fare much better.
If you do this build, or a similar one, I would (Atleast against zerg) favor getting 2 HT's out right away, make them an Archon, then research storm and Khaydarin as soon as possible (While excess gas goes into weapons and more templar). Storms burst damage is just so high, and since you're making the High Templar anyways, you may as well do the good old, 1 storm -> Archon. (80 damage vs. Roaches + being whacked at by Zealots and Archons is more effective then you think)
Edit: My variation of the build. It's quite vulnerable to baneling busts (imo) and isn't near as polished as it could be, but I get enough stuff to defend, and to win. I get storm, because storm is just so powerful (Theres no reason -not- to get it against zerg or terran, I think vs. Protoss there are better options then HT tech) Yes, my storms lick in this game, and I can't find my cool PvZ where I do some better storms.
EditX2:
Found the replay, again, mistakes, but goes to show you how getting storm is a huge benefit over an extra archon or two. Also, Zealots and Archons do a crapload of damage at +3 weapons.
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This build pretty much thwarts any zerg attempt to turtle and harass with mutas. I feel going roach/infestor could work quite well since roach outrange archons. I would still add on a spire though. I've seen a pretty powerful play from Idra where he defends early/mid aggression using hydras and once he has enough hydras he gets mutas to compliment and gain map control.
So in this build matchup it seems like you'd swap out the hydras for roach/infestor into mutas. Dunno about late game though... because you would have range upgrades for roach which doesnt really help ultras..
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Archons are actually pretty decent against roaches too. They can tank quite a few shots and they also do very good dps against roaches (35+ per shot depending on upgrades). Earlier during release and also in beta I've used archons to fend off early roach pressure when I rushed HT tech but storm wasn't yet done. Archons and roaches have very similar range as of the current patch and aren't kited that easily.
As long as you can get out an archon by the time the roaches reach your ramp you should be able to hold it off with zealots and an archon fine. In other words, going through with the archon would still work on the bigger maps (ie not Blistering or SoW).
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Archons just totally demolish lings and muta.... its unbelievable!
Apples is a 1500+ (maybe more) diamond and I have NEVER beat him untill i tried this archon play.
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Roach infestor is a huge problem since you will not have either immortals nor sentries.
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I will try this right away. I saw Hydro do something similar long ago, I dunno why I didn't think to use it.
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About the build order:
I strongly encourage you to put a forge for +1 attack somewhere in the build. +1 attack is so damn important if you are using zealot/archon(/stalker).
Zealots 2 shots lings if they don't have 1 armor upgrade. HUGE difference.
Archons 1 shot lings if they DO have 1 armor upgrade (they 2 shot them if its 0-0 archons vs 0-1 lings). HUGE difference.
(regardless of the zerg upgrades a +1 attack upgrade will make your zealot/archon MUCH more effective against lings)
In case you wind up using stalkers against muta's it makes a fairly big difference as well as 0-0 stalkers take 13 shots to kill a muta (because of 1 instant regen from the muta's) whereas 1-0 stalkers take 11 shots exactly killing the muta (121 dmg total accounting for the 1 hp regen).
As the build puts up a fast twilight council anyway the forge can be put to good use non-stop as you can immediately follow up with armor or lvl 2 upgrades (I'd go lvl 2 attack if you are up against lings and see +1 armor, otherwise get armor).
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I agree +1 wep vs zerg is ALWAYS good.
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I have been abusing Archons against Z every chance for weeks, but never came up with a build to get them early as I treated them just like going a storm build, which is different because all the research you need for storms you don't need for archons.
The only 2 units I have seen that can even deal with an archon-centric force are roaches and ultras, and even then archons can handle roaches decently.
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I wouldnt suggest ultras vs archons, check out this replay :D
Archons just have SO much dmg. Brood Lords work pretty well if cliff microed well.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-158619.jpg)
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If you scout a fast expo (hatch be4 pool) you can cut a gateway to early expand and you should be ok.. I like the effort you put into the build. Archons are my favourite unit but I never really have the solid plan to go straight for them. I would love to try this out sometime. I think you might be throwing down too many gateways before your expo though. Especially if the zerg goes heavy econ.
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nooooo, don't use the best unit vs. zerg, that's cheating!!!!!
I want to see more variants in toss builds : )
Do you toss in sentries in this build, simply for guardian shield vs. mutas, or is it really just zealot/archon with bare bones stalkers to slightly scare early muta counts
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I really like this build. I've been doing the DT variant of it(zealot opening->DT harass(sometimes wins  to archons, works amazing in 2v2 RT.
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Very nice build. I've yet to see an a single archon in any game I've ever played. I see templars from time to time, but nobody seems to want to warp them. It seems like this build absolutely crushes non ranged zerg units. I prefer to play ling/infestor against toss so this would counter that pretty well. Its refreshing to see some templar play, it mixes the game up.
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try going this route of a forge first FE into a +2 weapon up timing push with chargelot and two archons, u still have to watch out for roach all ins
because ur current build is hard countered by any sort of acceptible scouting into roaches
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The only issue I have with Templar play is that it's so....weak against roaches, and it's a pain to deal with mutalisks with templar due to how easily templar get picked off by a big ball o' mutalisks due to their speed (of the templar and the mutalisks)
Roaches, with their low cost and high HP amount, and pretty good damage (16+2 per up) just chew through zealots so damn quickly when they get into a large ball. With even more health than a marauder, and doing way more damage, it makes going zealot/templar dangerous, and you really aren't going to be having too much gas if you're doing templar play.
Stalker/templar is not going to work out since speedlings surround SO fast, that unless you've got enough zealots with charge to stop them getting a good surround, you're toast.
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YYYYAAAYYY the return of the zealot archon pushhhhhhhhhhh
(BW nostalgia inside :p)
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On October 18 2010 16:42 tetramaster wrote:
The only issue I have with Templar play is that it's so....weak against roaches, and it's a pain to deal with mutalisks with templar due to how easily templar get picked off by a big ball o' mutalisks due to their speed (of the templar and the mutalisks)
Roaches, with their low cost and high HP amount, and pretty good damage (16+2 per up) just chew through zealots so damn quickly when they get into a large ball. With even more health than a marauder, and doing way more damage, it makes going zealot/templar dangerous, and you really aren't going to be having too much gas if you're doing templar play.
Stalker/templar is not going to work out since speedlings surround SO fast, that unless you've got enough zealots with charge to stop them getting a good surround, you're toast.
I'm very seriously considering opening Robo in all my matchups now a days, Immortals are just so powerful against roaches. Getting a few immortals out then switching to Zealot/Templar is a decent play.
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I just don't understand why so many ppl here are saying "roach, roach, roach" - lol OF COURSE you don't go zealots and tech to archons against roaches, even the OP suggested abandoning the build if zerg really commits to roaches
that's like saying "well, one gate robo could be bad vs mass-zealots"; duh....if zerg commits to a constant stream of roaches you obviously produce as many stalkers as your warpgates can handle and try to squeeze in a robo for immortals;
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On October 18 2010 20:22 sleepingdog wrote:
I just don't understand why so many ppl here are saying "roach, roach, roach" - lol OF COURSE you don't go zealots and tech to archons against roaches, even the OP suggested abandoning the build if zerg really commits to roaches
that's like saying "well, one gate robo could be bad vs mass-zealots"; duh....if zerg commits to a constant stream of roaches you obviously produce as many stalkers as your warpgates can handle and try to squeeze in a robo for immortals;
Yea this is the prefect anti muta ling IMO if pressure is properly kept on Z front. If you dont keep it properly though, mutas will rape your probes and lings will backstab you.
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The problem with this build is its basically a blind counter to muta/ling. Sure you can react to fast roaches, but going roaches off a FE is VERY common to defend against protoss 1 base, and they're good units anyway. The last time someone went lotarchon (obviously he couldn't scout with no robo or hallucinate) i literally had like 16 speed roaches (and lots of drones off 2 base) and i met him in the middle and he just gg'd immediately.
Theres no way you can expect to scout roaches after a FE since he'll probably get them after some lings and 1-2 spine crawler and plenty of drones.
Someone mentioned stalker/templar, but roaches with speed beat both of those units very cost effectively.
As far as I can see, you basically need robo to beat roaches. I don't understand why all protoss just don't get robo these days. It's not really that bad against muta/ling 1 stalker beats 1 muta and guardian shield makes it worse, + you should have upgrade advantage. Having a couple colossus makes it much easier to deal with lings as well, especially with forcefields thrown in.
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Hi all, thanks for using my build!
Since the roach patch, the meta game has switch to many roach heavy builds. That has resulted in me not doing this build blind so much any more (though it is still nice). But have no fear! I stand firmly by Archons versus mutaling!
I've been doing quite a bit of fast expand first, then once I see they are going mutaling, I will tech to Archons.
Here is a replay of me going 15 Nexus on Shakuras Plateau, pushing with standard gateway units, then teching to Archons to finish the game:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-161435.jpg)
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I've been considering voidray/archon/zealot vs zerg, thoughts?
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I think this work is brilliant... hand in hand w/ a FE though..
or some sort of 2Gate aggressive pressure moving into an FE.
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Yup this is a pretty nifty strat i have to say but getting charge early is just too expensive I just cant squeese out 200 gas ;F instead I go +1 atk right of the bat which helps shitloads and when I get my 3rd and 4th gas I get the charge.
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nice post. I actually have been playing around with a build like this recently and find that if you do a 2gate open, the early pressure forces zerg back a bit with lings/spines. I then go for quick DTs, again putting pressure on them to build overseers/spores. Expo up while DTs harass, and retreat.
Then just pump out zlot +atk +charge, and take those dts you used for harass, defense and get the archons going. Couple sentry for FF, shield is good too.
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DT Archon = 250/250
HT Archon = 100/300
Right?
So a tad later in the game, using this with DTs is a bit better as you'll get harassment options and have more gas to use actual High Templar. Should watch out for cutting to many Zealots tho!
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On December 21 2010 15:56 ToastieNL wrote:
DT Archon = 250/250
HT Archon = 100/300
Right?
So a tad later in the game, using this with DTs is a bit better as you'll get harassment options and have more gas to use actual High Templar. Should watch out for cutting to many Zealots tho!
The thing is the dark shrine has 100 second build time opposed to templar archives 50 seconds and to me thats a lot besides in many scenarios especially since we've already opened this tech route we'd be later on getting storm and amulet anyways so its more beneficial for these purposes in my opinion. And nowdays I find myself getting stargates after my initial pressure and expanding but thats more of a matter of prefrence really. Could concider dts but using them for archons aint really my piece of cake.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157250.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157251.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-158412.jpg)
