I have been abusing Archons against Z every chance for weeks, but never came up with a build to get them early as I treated them just like going a storm build, which is different because all the research you need for storms you don't need for archons.

The only 2 units I have seen that can even deal with an archon-centric force are roaches and ultras, and even then archons can handle roaches decently.

AlexXx

United States58 Posts

October 18 2010 03:19 GMT

#43

I wouldnt suggest ultras vs archons, check out this replay :D

Archons just have SO much dmg. Brood Lords work pretty well if cliff microed well.

Vasili

Australia125 Posts

October 18 2010 05:55 GMT

#44

If you scout a fast expo (hatch be4 pool) you can cut a gateway to early expand and you should be ok.. I like the effort you put into the build. Archons are my favourite unit but I never really have the solid plan to go straight for them. I would love to try this out sometime. I think you might be throwing down too many gateways before your expo though. Especially if the zerg goes heavy econ.

GaussWaffle

United States211 Posts

October 18 2010 06:27 GMT

#45

nooooo, don't use the best unit vs. zerg, that's cheating!!!!!

I want to see more variants in toss builds : )

Do you toss in sentries in this build, simply for guardian shield vs. mutas, or is it really just zealot/archon with bare bones stalkers to slightly scare early muta counts

HeyJude

United States157 Posts

October 18 2010 06:40 GMT

#46

I really like this build. I've been doing the DT variant of it(zealot opening->DT harass(sometimes wins

to archons, works amazing in 2v2 RT.

vsportsguy

United States118 Posts

October 18 2010 07:07 GMT

#47

Very nice build. I've yet to see an a single archon in any game I've ever played. I see templars from time to time, but nobody seems to want to warp them. It seems like this build absolutely crushes non ranged zerg units. I prefer to play ling/infestor against toss so this would counter that pretty well. Its refreshing to see some templar play, it mixes the game up.

Minimi][

Germany43 Posts

October 18 2010 07:41 GMT

#48

try going this route of a forge first FE into a +2 weapon up timing push with chargelot and two archons, u still have to watch out for roach all ins

because ur current build is hard countered by any sort of acceptible scouting into roaches

tetramaster

Canada253 Posts

October 18 2010 07:42 GMT

#49

The only issue I have with Templar play is that it's so....weak against roaches, and it's a pain to deal with mutalisks with templar due to how easily templar get picked off by a big ball o' mutalisks due to their speed (of the templar and the mutalisks)

Roaches, with their low cost and high HP amount, and pretty good damage (16+2 per up) just chew through zealots so damn quickly when they get into a large ball. With even more health than a marauder, and doing way more damage, it makes going zealot/templar dangerous, and you really aren't going to be having too much gas if you're doing templar play.

Stalker/templar is not going to work out since speedlings surround SO fast, that unless you've got enough zealots with charge to stop them getting a good surround, you're toast.

Douillos

France3195 Posts

October 18 2010 08:22 GMT

#50

YYYYAAAYYY the return of the zealot archon pushhhhhhhhhhh
(BW nostalgia inside :p)

DreamSailor

Canada433 Posts

October 18 2010 08:37 GMT

#51

On October 18 2010 16:42 tetramaster wrote:
The only issue I have with Templar play is that it's so....weak against roaches, and it's a pain to deal with mutalisks with templar due to how easily templar get picked off by a big ball o' mutalisks due to their speed (of the templar and the mutalisks)

Roaches, with their low cost and high HP amount, and pretty good damage (16+2 per up) just chew through zealots so damn quickly when they get into a large ball. With even more health than a marauder, and doing way more damage, it makes going zealot/templar dangerous, and you really aren't going to be having too much gas if you're doing templar play.

Stalker/templar is not going to work out since speedlings surround SO fast, that unless you've got enough zealots with charge to stop them getting a good surround, you're toast.

I'm very seriously considering opening Robo in all my matchups now a days, Immortals are just so powerful against roaches. Getting a few immortals out then switching to Zealot/Templar is a decent play.

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

October 18 2010 11:22 GMT

#52

I just don't understand why so many ppl here are saying "roach, roach, roach" - lol OF COURSE you don't go zealots and tech to archons against roaches, even the OP suggested abandoning the build if zerg really commits to roaches

that's like saying "well, one gate robo could be bad vs mass-zealots"; duh....if zerg commits to a constant stream of roaches you obviously produce as many stalkers as your warpgates can handle and try to squeeze in a robo for immortals;

Douillos

France3195 Posts

October 19 2010 08:28 GMT

#53

On October 18 2010 20:22 sleepingdog wrote:
I just don't understand why so many ppl here are saying "roach, roach, roach" - lol OF COURSE you don't go zealots and tech to archons against roaches, even the OP suggested abandoning the build if zerg really commits to roaches

that's like saying "well, one gate robo could be bad vs mass-zealots"; duh....if zerg commits to a constant stream of roaches you obviously produce as many stalkers as your warpgates can handle and try to squeeze in a robo for immortals;

Yea this is the prefect anti muta ling IMO if pressure is properly kept on Z front. If you dont keep it properly though, mutas will rape your probes and lings will backstab you.

Slayer91

Ireland23335 Posts

October 19 2010 08:33 GMT

#54

The problem with this build is its basically a blind counter to muta/ling. Sure you can react to fast roaches, but going roaches off a FE is VERY common to defend against protoss 1 base, and they're good units anyway. The last time someone went lotarchon (obviously he couldn't scout with no robo or hallucinate) i literally had like 16 speed roaches (and lots of drones off 2 base) and i met him in the middle and he just gg'd immediately.

Theres no way you can expect to scout roaches after a FE since he'll probably get them after some lings and 1-2 spine crawler and plenty of drones.

Someone mentioned stalker/templar, but roaches with speed beat both of those units very cost effectively.

As far as I can see, you basically need robo to beat roaches. I don't understand why all protoss just don't get robo these days. It's not really that bad against muta/ling 1 stalker beats 1 muta and guardian shield makes it worse, + you should have upgrade advantage. Having a couple colossus makes it much easier to deal with lings as well, especially with forcefields thrown in.

Monsoon

United States14 Posts

October 29 2010 20:41 GMT

#55

Hi all, thanks for using my build!

Since the roach patch, the meta game has switch to many roach heavy builds. That has resulted in me not doing this build blind so much any more (though it is still nice). But have no fear! I stand firmly by Archons versus mutaling!

I've been doing quite a bit of fast expand first, then once I see they are going mutaling, I will tech to Archons.

Here is a replay of me going 15 Nexus on Shakuras Plateau, pushing with standard gateway units, then teching to Archons to finish the game:

Kiarip

United States1835 Posts

October 29 2010 20:43 GMT

#56

I've been considering voidray/archon/zealot vs zerg, thoughts?

AER0K

United States24 Posts

December 16 2010 02:38 GMT

#57

I think this work is brilliant... hand in hand w/ a FE though..
or some sort of 2Gate aggressive pressure moving into an FE.

Wakizashi

Finland6 Posts

December 20 2010 08:20 GMT

#58

Yup this is a pretty nifty strat i have to say but getting charge early is just too expensive I just cant squeese out 200 gas ;F instead I go +1 atk right of the bat which helps shitloads and when I get my 3rd and 4th gas I get the charge.

xDAYMANx

United States29 Posts

December 21 2010 06:28 GMT

#59

nice post. I actually have been playing around with a build like this recently and find that if you do a 2gate open, the early pressure forces zerg back a bit with lings/spines. I then go for quick DTs, again putting pressure on them to build overseers/spores. Expo up while DTs harass, and retreat.

Then just pump out zlot +atk +charge, and take those dts you used for harass, defense and get the archons going. Couple sentry for FF, shield is good too.

ToastieNL

Netherlands845 Posts

December 21 2010 06:56 GMT

#60

DT Archon = 250/250
HT Archon = 100/300

Right?

So a tad later in the game, using this with DTs is a bit better as you'll get harassment options and have more gas to use actual High Templar. Should watch out for cutting to many Zealots tho!