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On November 15 2011 23:34 rawler wrote:
Against mass Thors, is it worth buying templars soley for feedback? It can take half the health off a thor but if it dies it is pretty expensive just for 1 or 2 casts... =-\
Tried immortalsa gainst mass thor but they didn't do as good as I hoped... you need double robo pumping constant chrono to match their production =-\ Harder for Toss, we don't have mules!
So are you up against only thors? My first advice is, don't let him get too many or it will be a pain to deal with. If you can't deny him that however, I think the optimal unit composition would be zealot immortal colossus. What you want to do is to not fight him head on. He will be really slow so you can abuse that immobility, get blink and cliff walk your colossus etc. Air can be pretty decent if he doesn't have them in large numbers yet. Voidrays but mainly carriers.
On November 16 2011 00:10 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 07:03 Latedi wrote:On November 15 2011 06:39 ant885 wrote:
In PvZ, is a gas first build indicative of anything but speedling aggression/map control (assuming natural is taken @ standardish time)?
I typically 1 gate FE and when I see gas first I usually spend all my chronos on sentries before warpgate finishes. Is this an unnecessary response (or perhaps under reaction, i.e. I should 3gate expand or something)? Well 14 gas 14 pool and 14 pool 14 gas are both standard builds, so don't think to much about it. What you want to scout is if the zerg harvests more than 100 gas before pulling the drones off. There's no need to chronoboost the gateway that much if you are planning on 3gate expanding. Lately I've been playing really paranoid any time I see those early gas builds. First, there is just no reason for a zerg to get ling speed that early other than to be able to kill your probe (but what is it exactly that he does not want you to see??). Second, early gas is suboptimal in terms of going for a good econ macro play. Thus I think that while he could be playing standard, there is a very high chance of him going for some kind of all-in, either on hatch tech (roach/ling or bane/ling) or a fast lair (nydus, drop, etc). It could also mean fast mutas or fast infestors or fast hydras. So basically you have to be prepared for everything. Usually my response is to automatically add another cannon or two when I see early gas (I almost always FFE). Tech fast while trying to scout as well as you can (which is really hard).
Well having a quick ling speed is good for two things. First it makes you safe against any kind of protoss aggression. Second it denies scouting. The denial of scouting doesn't really mean he wants to hide anything but rather you will have to play it safe and scout him with other means such as observers or hallucinated phoenixes.
A second early gas however, I see no use for at all. He could be going for some kind of 1hatch muta but I doubt it. expanding and hiding it is often way better. I think your opponent's build is not optimal and therefore you can mostly ignore this. Play safe and watch for nyduses, scout him with hallucination as soon as possible. If you forge FE it might indeed be a good idea to get another cannon at the front. You should also prepare pylons near your mineral lines in case of him going mutas. Just don't let them eat into your build, make them as necessary. You don't really want to tech either. You want units and scouting, my suggestion would be rush for WG and a few gateways like normal and get hallucination right after. You should also send out a probe if you can before speed is done. If he doesn't have many lings feel free to chronoboost maybe 1-2 zealots and try to scout him with them. Then when WG finishes start making a normal stalker sentry army, this should keep your front safe and the stalkers can take out any mutas.
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After you FFE against a zerg, what are some good times to hallucinate scout them to see what tech they are going? And in general when should I be scouting against them? I usually try to keep a probe scout at the tower as long as I can and then zealot scout later to check for a roach/ling all in. But I don't have the times yet on when to check for a third, check for lair, check for spire etc.
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On November 16 2011 12:30 flipstorm wrote:
After you FFE against a zerg, what are some good times to hallucinate scout them to see what tech they are going? And in general when should I be scouting against them? I usually try to keep a probe scout at the tower as long as I can and then zealot scout later to check for a roach/ling all in. But I don't have the times yet on when to check for a third, check for lair, check for spire etc.
Check whenever you don't know what's going on.
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Just a question regarding a common scenario in the current state of PvZ. Metalopolis: FFE into a gateway composition -> Zerg reponds by teching to Mutas on two bases and massing Muta/Ling. So now you're in that classic two-base situation where you defend with Stalkers and cannons and tech to Storm.
My question is this: Is it ever possible for Protoss to take a third from this scenario? I really dislike the feel of turtling to a maxed army and then trying to win the base-race, but I've never figured out a way to secure the third with enough firepower to get a walloff and cannons up while leaving enough stuff behind to defend my already established bases. Is there a technique that allows this, or is massing up and moving out on two bases the only way out of this position?
Also, could Zergs please stop doing this? It's seriously not fun to defend and it's got me doing silly 6 gate all-ins again instead of trying for longer games  .
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United States8476 Posts
On November 16 2011 17:38 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Just a question regarding a common scenario in the current state of PvZ. Metalopolis: FFE into a gateway composition -> Zerg reponds by teching to Mutas on two bases and massing Muta/Ling. So now you're in that classic two-base situation where you defend with Stalkers and cannons and tech to Storm. My question is this: Is it ever possible for Protoss to take a third from this scenario? I really dislike the feel of turtling to a maxed army and then trying to win the base-race, but I've never figured out a way to secure the third with enough firepower to get a walloff and cannons up while leaving enough stuff behind to defend my already established bases. Is there a technique that allows this, or is massing up and moving out on two bases the only way out of this position? Also, could Zergs please stop doing this? It's seriously not fun to defend and it's got me doing silly 6 gate all-ins again instead of trying for longer games .
I would suggest submitting a replay or all you're going to get is general advice. The best advice I can give you in this general situation is that you should be aware that zerg is on 2 base. Especially on a map like metal where a 3rd is extremely easy/safe to take, zerg must have a reason for staying on 2 base. If you can deduce he's on 2 base vs FFE, you can effectively narrow down his strategies to 2 base muta, infestor, or some type of allin(baneling/ling drop, ling drop, ling hydra drop, some type of bust, nydus worm) With this information you can skew your strategy to defending these instead of worrying about say macro roach play.
Other than that, I'm just going to give you the standard blink stalker/cannon/templar answer into 3 base.
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On November 16 2011 17:44 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 17:38 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Just a question regarding a common scenario in the current state of PvZ. Metalopolis: FFE into a gateway composition -> Zerg reponds by teching to Mutas on two bases and massing Muta/Ling. So now you're in that classic two-base situation where you defend with Stalkers and cannons and tech to Storm. My question is this: Is it ever possible for Protoss to take a third from this scenario? I really dislike the feel of turtling to a maxed army and then trying to win the base-race, but I've never figured out a way to secure the third with enough firepower to get a walloff and cannons up while leaving enough stuff behind to defend my already established bases. Is there a technique that allows this, or is massing up and moving out on two bases the only way out of this position? Also, could Zergs please stop doing this? It's seriously not fun to defend and it's got me doing silly 6 gate all-ins again instead of trying for longer games . I would suggest submitting a replay or all you're going to get is general advice. The best advice I can give you in this general situation is that you should be aware that zerg is on 2 base. Especially on a map like metal where a 3rd is extremely easy/safe to take, zerg must have a reason for staying on 2 base. If you can deduce he's on 2 base vs FFE, you can effectively narrow down his strategies to 2 base muta, infestor, or some type of allin(baneling/ling drop, ling drop, ling hydra drop, some type of bust, nydus worm) With this information you can skew your strategy to defending these instead of worrying about say macro roach play. Other than that, I'm just going to give you the standard blink stalker/cannon/templar answer into 3 base.
Yeah, I'm actually looking for very general scenario-based advice rather than help with a specific game. The reason I generally lose against this is actually that my multitasking and positioning are really bad and so the Muta harass is more cost effective than it should be. I've just had taking a third in this scenario as a goal (while working on my more serious problem of correctly positioning and controlling my units), am having trouble doing it and was wondering if there is actually a safe way to expand again while your opponent is doing mass Muta harass.
In such a situation, do you take the third as Storm finishes and just leave a couple of HTs and Stalkers to hold your main and nat while using your army to defend the third while it builds? Or what is the appropriate timing to attempt to take a third?
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United States8476 Posts
On November 16 2011 18:47 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 17:44 NrGmonk wrote:On November 16 2011 17:38 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Just a question regarding a common scenario in the current state of PvZ. Metalopolis: FFE into a gateway composition -> Zerg reponds by teching to Mutas on two bases and massing Muta/Ling. So now you're in that classic two-base situation where you defend with Stalkers and cannons and tech to Storm. My question is this: Is it ever possible for Protoss to take a third from this scenario? I really dislike the feel of turtling to a maxed army and then trying to win the base-race, but I've never figured out a way to secure the third with enough firepower to get a walloff and cannons up while leaving enough stuff behind to defend my already established bases. Is there a technique that allows this, or is massing up and moving out on two bases the only way out of this position? Also, could Zergs please stop doing this? It's seriously not fun to defend and it's got me doing silly 6 gate all-ins again instead of trying for longer games . I would suggest submitting a replay or all you're going to get is general advice. The best advice I can give you in this general situation is that you should be aware that zerg is on 2 base. Especially on a map like metal where a 3rd is extremely easy/safe to take, zerg must have a reason for staying on 2 base. If you can deduce he's on 2 base vs FFE, you can effectively narrow down his strategies to 2 base muta, infestor, or some type of allin(baneling/ling drop, ling drop, ling hydra drop, some type of bust, nydus worm) With this information you can skew your strategy to defending these instead of worrying about say macro roach play. Other than that, I'm just going to give you the standard blink stalker/cannon/templar answer into 3 base. Yeah, I'm actually looking for very general scenario-based advice rather than help with a specific game. The reason I generally lose against this is actually that my multitasking and positioning are really bad and so the Muta harass is more cost effective than it should be. I've just had taking a third in this scenario as a goal (while working on my more serious problem of correctly positioning and controlling my units), am having trouble doing it and was wondering if there is actually a safe way to expand again while your opponent is doing mass Muta harass. In such a situation, do you take the third as Storm finishes and just leave a couple of HTs and Stalkers to hold your main and nat while using your army to defend the third while it builds? Or what is the appropriate timing to attempt to take a third?
Really depends from game to game and that's why I was asking for a replay.
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holyshit i just lost to a small amount of marines+stim (~21) with 7 medivacs...
i had 10 zealots, 4 stalkers 2 immortals and 3 sentries..
some1 pls tell me wads wrong..
i was more pissed losing this than to 6 pool...
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On November 16 2011 12:30 flipstorm wrote:
After you FFE against a zerg, what are some good times to hallucinate scout them to see what tech they are going? And in general when should I be scouting against them? I usually try to keep a probe scout at the tower as long as I can and then zealot scout later to check for a roach/ling all in. But I don't have the times yet on when to check for a third, check for lair, check for spire etc.
With an FFE, get 4 gas going ASAP. You will need it for +1 attack, lots of sentries, AND hallucinatrion as soon as WG finishes. You will need to have sentries ready to hallucinate as SOON as it is done. You need to find out if he is going Muts, Roaches, Hydras, etc at this point in order to prepare. Afterwards, use it every couple minutes--- find out where his army is, what he's doing, where he's expanding, etc. The more you use it, the better... get lots of sentries so you can afford to use it.
Oh.. and a fun thing to do. March to a tower with your army and 3 hallucinated Collosi if he is going Hydras or roaches. He'll panick and start building corruptors. Tech high templars instead & waste all his money =P
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On November 16 2011 19:07 SGilna wrote:
holyshit i just lost to a small amount of marines+stim (~21) with 7 medivacs...
i had 10 zealots, 4 stalkers 2 immortals and 3 sentries..
some1 pls tell me wads wrong..
i was more pissed losing this than to 6 pool...
Post a replay.... sounds like immortlas were your problem; they are expensive and cost a lot of money. Also, you had too few stalkers--- stalkers are the best weapon against marines. Did you use guardian shield? Did you engage him in an area you could FF him correctly since you were so zealot heavy?
7 Medivacs is VERY expensive. You could have compensated with an equal amount of damaging items of your own. More sentries & more stalkers to start--- cut him in half and pick him apart. Inevitably, collosi and/or HT would end any thread marines pose.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 16 2011 19:08 rawler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 12:30 flipstorm wrote:
After you FFE against a zerg, what are some good times to hallucinate scout them to see what tech they are going? And in general when should I be scouting against them? I usually try to keep a probe scout at the tower as long as I can and then zealot scout later to check for a roach/ling all in. But I don't have the times yet on when to check for a third, check for lair, check for spire etc. With an FFE, get 4 gas going ASAP. You will need it for +1 attack, lots of sentries, AND hallucinatrion as soon as WG finishes. You will need to have sentries ready to hallucinate as SOON as it is done. You need to find out if he is going Muts, Roaches, Hydras, etc at this point in order to prepare. Afterwards, use it every couple minutes--- find out where his army is, what he's doing, where he's expanding, etc. The more you use it, the better... get lots of sentries so you can afford to use it.
No, you don't always want to get 4 gas asap.
Oh.. and a fun thing to do. March to a tower with your army and 3 hallucinated Collosi if he is going Hydras or roaches. He'll panick and start building corruptors. Tech high templars instead & waste all his money =P
Irrelevant to the thread -_-.
When you FFE vs zerg, you should be checking for a third with your probe. If you get hallucination, hallucinate often for his base count/tech buildings/unit count/current composition. There's no real timings you have to hit.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 16 2011 19:10 rawler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 19:07 SGilna wrote:
holyshit i just lost to a small amount of marines+stim (~21) with 7 medivacs...
i had 10 zealots, 4 stalkers 2 immortals and 3 sentries..
some1 pls tell me wads wrong..
i was more pissed losing this than to 6 pool...
Post a replay.... sounds like immortlas were your problem; they are expensive and cost a lot of money. Also, you had too few stalkers--- stalkers are the best weapon against marines. Did you use guardian shield? Did you engage him in an area you could FF him correctly since you were so zealot heavy? 7 Medivacs is VERY expensive. You could have compensated with an equal amount of damaging items of your own. More sentries & more stalkers to start--- cut him in half and pick him apart. Inevitably, collosi and/or HT would end any thread marines pose.
Immortals are very common in PvT early game and a lack of stalkers probably wasn't the problem either. He's right that you need to post a replay first though.
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On November 16 2011 19:08 rawler wrote:
With an FFE, get 4 gas going ASAP
Not true. There are all kinds of 6 gate +1/ 7 gate kind of timings where you don't want the extra gas.
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On November 16 2011 19:25 Beltiosi wrote:Not true. There are all kinds of 6 gate +1/ 7 gate kind of timings where you don't want the extra gas.
Yeah, I like going 2 gas then add on a robo and 2 extra gates (I open with the 2 gate +1 zealot pressure, so up to 4 gates) then the next 2 gas as my robo is halfway done
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On November 16 2011 19:07 SGilna wrote:
holyshit i just lost to a small amount of marines+stim (~21) with 7 medivacs...
i had 10 zealots, 4 stalkers 2 immortals and 3 sentries..
some1 pls tell me wads wrong..
i was more pissed losing this than to 6 pool...
assuming you don't have charge and didn't forcefield, the Terran would be able to kite you all day with minimal losses...
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NrGmonk wrote:
Immortals are very common in PvT early game and a lack of stalkers probably wasn't the problem either. He's right that you need to post a replay first though.
You truly believe that it was a good idea to have multiple immortals against stimmed marines with no mauraders around??? The sole purpose PvT has immortals is for mauraders... against marines, they are abysmal--- are you suggesting Protoss players should build them blindly without scouting their opponents unit composition? There is no armored damage bonus against marines, and the marines fast attack chews through the hardened shields in seconds, especially with stim. It takes 3 shots to kill ONE marine @ 20 damage a hit vs non armored. I would NEVER build an immortal unless my stalker poke saw mauraders, siege tanks, or thors.
As for not needing stalkers, stimmed marines will kite and destroy zealots, and stalkers prevent kiting by punishing them with shots as they kite. Also, stalkers armor withstands marine fire better than the light zealot does. Lastly, Stalkers speed and range allows them to kite marines. For this reason & others, most choose stalkers for marines and zealots for mauraders, and adjust the gateway composition appropriately considering the number of each. Some opt to go very zealot heavy but only in combination with ample sentries for forcefield/guardian shield and/or charge to minimize kiting. If you go this route, you need clutch FF use as a skilled Terran player is difficult to catch with FF while kiting. Always poke around with your first zealot/stalker to observer their unit composition.
NrGmonk wrote:
When you FFE vs zerg, you should be checking for a third with your probe. If you get hallucination, hallucinate often for his base count/tech buildings/unit count/current composition. There's no real timings you have to hit.
Not true either--- you want to scout Zerg aproximately 8-10 min to see what their lair tech choice was--- Hydras or Mutalisks.
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United States8476 Posts
Honestly do you really want to argue with me when you're a gold Protoss?
On November 16 2011 20:41 rawler wrote:Show nested quote +
NrGmonk wrote:
Immortals are very common in PvT early game and a lack of stalkers probably wasn't the problem either. He's right that you need to post a replay first though.
You truly believe that it was a good idea to have multiple immortals against stimmed marines with no mauraders around??? Early immortals are good if they have mauraders, but not against marines at ALL. There is no armored damage bonus and their small fast attacks chew through the shields. I would never build an immortal unless my stalker poke saw mauraders.... Stimmed marines will kite and destroy zealots, and stalkers prevent kiting by punishing them with shots as they kite. Also, stalkers armor withstands marine fire better than the light zealot. Lastly, Stalkers speed and range allows them to kite marines. For this reason & others, most choose stalkers for marines and zealots for mauraders, and adjust the gateway composition appropriately considering the amount of each. Some opt to go very zealot heavy but only in combination with sentries for forcefield/guardian shield and/or charge to minimize kiting. Always poke around with your first zealot/stalker to observer their unit composition.
You can't just give such general advice without a replay. How do you know he only saw marines? Immortals are actually pretty fine versus marines early game too. For example, in a recent game in the GSL, Puzzle went 2 immortals, stalkers, and sentries versus a mass marine opening.
Show nested quote +
NrGmonk wrote:
When you FFE vs zerg, you should be checking for a third with your probe. If you get hallucination, hallucinate often for his base count/tech buildings/unit count/current composition. There's no real timings you have to hit.
Not true either--- you want to scout Zerg aproximately 8-10 min to see what their lair tech choice was--- Hydras or Mutalisks.
This comment just shows your lack of experience.
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Yeah... immortals are pretty good against marines early game...
Arguing with a blue man? Nice.
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alright here is my replay..
http://drop.sc/59663
with sentries of cuz i did on my gs and ff....but come to think of it my ff isn't really well placed..
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lol ok NrGmonk... after reading that, I see there truly is no need to discuss this with you anymore.
Everyone--- the new pro marine counter is to immediately build 2 immortals & skip stalkers. Oh, and if you play against Zerg, you will surely lose if you scout theri lair tech. Do NOT scout lair tech!! it is a terrible idea.
User was banned for this post.
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EPT
