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On November 12 2011 23:21 Latedi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 15:24 Pasghetti wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hope this wasn't already posted, basicly OgsMC goes over the 1 Gate Expand build, He also answers some questions and goes over little micro tricks. I think it has it's own thread or something but even so it fits very well in with this thread. And about hero's multitasking it's pretty easy actually. Make warp prisms once you are on three bases and start warping in zealots where the zerg army is not. Sniping tech and/or bases this was is really easy. I can do it and I have like 80 apm 
Can you PM me or post the link to the thread of that video?
Searched for a while and there's nothing.
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On November 14 2011 15:04 Shaok wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 23:21 Latedi wrote:On November 12 2011 15:24 Pasghetti wrote:+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4kwPnC_2zo&feature=related Hope this wasn't already posted, basicly OgsMC goes over the 1 Gate Expand build, He also answers some questions and goes over little micro tricks. I think it has it's own thread or something but even so it fits very well in with this thread. And about hero's multitasking it's pretty easy actually. Make warp prisms once you are on three bases and start warping in zealots where the zerg army is not. Sniping tech and/or bases this was is really easy. I can do it and I have like 80 apm Can you PM me or post the link to the thread of that video? Searched for a while and there's nothing.
Hmm it was probably this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=260700
But this is one is shorter and I can't see it so maybe not : / Sorry I don't know.
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thankyou for the responses 
in a way I almost always hated more than cheese the people who play so greedy earlygame they almost force you to have to all-in them, glad to know i can still play macro vs 14cc
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On November 14 2011 16:56 ThePianoDentist wrote:thankyou for the responses in a way I almost always hated more than cheese the people who play so greedy earlygame they almost force you to have to all-in them, glad to know i can still play macro vs 14cc
People often overreact, I can't see the need for a player to all in ever. If your opponent is too greedy you just put on some pressure, if you scout it that is, and get greedy yourself. Against 14cc however I understand if you can't pressure it as your buildorder doesn't allow that. Just a thought :p
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How do you scout a terran after he 1rax FE's and you 1g expand.
Firstly I'm mid masters and the biggest problem I have vs 1rax fe is scouting the terran followup. Sometimes he can lay down fast tech and abuse my lack of tech in the midgame. He can lay down 4 naked barracks and do a mass marine followup, or a stim timing of some sort. It feels like guesswork, some games I get a fast robo into collosi and it pays off because it beats X build, but its rock paper scissors, I havn't figured out a way to safely scout his followup whereas he can simply scan.
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In this game I die to a simple Terran push.
What did I do wrong to get so smashed and how do I fix it?
http://drop.sc/58962
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United States7483 Posts
On November 14 2011 17:23 headbus wrote:
How do you scout a terran after he 1rax FE's and you 1g expand.
Firstly I'm mid masters and the biggest problem I have vs 1rax fe is scouting the terran followup. Sometimes he can lay down fast tech and abuse my lack of tech in the midgame. He can lay down 4 naked barracks and do a mass marine followup, or a stim timing of some sort. It feels like guesswork, some games I get a fast robo into collosi and it pays off because it beats X build, but its rock paper scissors, I havn't figured out a way to safely scout his followup whereas he can simply scan.
Either research hallucination and use some sentry energy, or build a robo facility sooner and get an observer. You need that scouting information, so a build that doesn't incorporate either of those two things needs to have a way to force your opponent to tip his hand: like powerful pressure. If you don't want to get very aggressive with your army and risk losing due to a bad engagement (you can't really retreat vs. concussive shell marauders if terran forces the engagement), you need that robo or hallucination.
I suppose there is another option: play a style that can't be beaten badly regardless of what terran does (I like to do zealot archon, because regardless of what build terran goes with and what units they make, I can easily hold off long enough to tech switch if I need to. I still get the robo though in case of cloak banshees).
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United States8476 Posts
On November 14 2011 17:32 Jaeger wrote:In this game I die to a simple Terran push. What did I do wrong to get so smashed and how do I fix it? http://drop.sc/58962
Was pretty simple. You need some type of AoE at that point in the game. There's no way around that.
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United States8476 Posts
On November 14 2011 17:43 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 17:23 headbus wrote:
How do you scout a terran after he 1rax FE's and you 1g expand.
Firstly I'm mid masters and the biggest problem I have vs 1rax fe is scouting the terran followup. Sometimes he can lay down fast tech and abuse my lack of tech in the midgame. He can lay down 4 naked barracks and do a mass marine followup, or a stim timing of some sort. It feels like guesswork, some games I get a fast robo into collosi and it pays off because it beats X build, but its rock paper scissors, I havn't figured out a way to safely scout his followup whereas he can simply scan. Either research hallucination and use some sentry energy, or build a robo facility sooner and get an observer. You need that scouting information, so a build that doesn't incorporate either of those two things needs to have a way to force your opponent to tip his hand: like powerful pressure. If you don't want to get very aggressive with your army and risk losing due to a bad engagement (you can't really retreat vs. concussive shell marauders if terran forces the engagement), you need that robo or hallucination. I suppose there is another option: play a style that can't be beaten badly regardless of what terran does (I like to do zealot archon, because regardless of what build terran goes with and what units they make, I can easily hold off long enough to tech switch if I need to. I still get the robo though in case of cloak banshees).
You can also poke his front with stalkers. Versus good players, you won't get too much information. However, sometimes, the existence of maurders/tanks/turret, marine count, and bunker count can tell you a lot.
Vs 4 naked rax, it's unscoutable vs a good player. You just have to account for it in your build, as in getting at least 3 gates before tech.
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On November 14 2011 17:23 headbus wrote:
How do you scout a terran after he 1rax FE's and you 1g expand.
Firstly I'm mid masters and the biggest problem I have vs 1rax fe is scouting the terran followup. Sometimes he can lay down fast tech and abuse my lack of tech in the midgame. He can lay down 4 naked barracks and do a mass marine followup, or a stim timing of some sort. It feels like guesswork, some games I get a fast robo into collosi and it pays off because it beats X build, but its rock paper scissors, I havn't figured out a way to safely scout his followup whereas he can simply scan.
Basically every 1gate expand build gets at least 2 stalkers early on. Use these to sit outside of terran's base if he hasn't shown maruaders and they give you early warning and let you kite the 4-5 naked rax mass marine pushes. Stalkers in the middle of the map weaken this push severely. If terran gets to walk 16 marines to your base for free then you're probably going to take damage and risk getting bunkered.
Common followups to 1gate expand against a Terran FE can be placed basically into 2 categories.
- Robo
- Warpgate timing attack
Almost every follow up including builds like chargelot archon or 2 base storm get a fast robo. People go gate robo nexus, gate nexus robo, or most commonly gate nexus gate gate robo. If you want to be defensive and scout you usually get 2 fast observers and make units out of 3 warpgates. You scout the terran's tech/production/expansions with one of the observers and scout his army movements with the other. If you want to be aggressive and scout you can do white-ra style warp prism zealot harass in the main while poking the front with stalkers on 4gates. Some protoss players are starting to go for almost constant observer production against terran on some maps. For instance MC in one game on crossfire and parting in the GSL in the current season.
Warpgate timings after a 1gate fe vary a bit. There's the 3/4gate pure stalker pressure which is fairly weak but comes very early and 5/6/7 gate timings which come later can be basically any zealot stalker and/or sentry composition. The basic idea being you restrict his options and force him to reveal his composition because if he's playing too oddball or trying to hide something expensive you'll just kill him. MLG Orlando was basically full of being as greedy as possible after scouting Terran expansion builds and then killing them with warpgate timings. Warpgate timings often have very small windows where they can win the game or at least do a good amount of damage and if those windows close they'll usually do nothing at all.
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On November 14 2011 17:53 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 17:43 Whitewing wrote:On November 14 2011 17:23 headbus wrote:
How do you scout a terran after he 1rax FE's and you 1g expand.
Firstly I'm mid masters and the biggest problem I have vs 1rax fe is scouting the terran followup. Sometimes he can lay down fast tech and abuse my lack of tech in the midgame. He can lay down 4 naked barracks and do a mass marine followup, or a stim timing of some sort. It feels like guesswork, some games I get a fast robo into collosi and it pays off because it beats X build, but its rock paper scissors, I havn't figured out a way to safely scout his followup whereas he can simply scan. Either research hallucination and use some sentry energy, or build a robo facility sooner and get an observer. You need that scouting information, so a build that doesn't incorporate either of those two things needs to have a way to force your opponent to tip his hand: like powerful pressure. If you don't want to get very aggressive with your army and risk losing due to a bad engagement (you can't really retreat vs. concussive shell marauders if terran forces the engagement), you need that robo or hallucination. I suppose there is another option: play a style that can't be beaten badly regardless of what terran does (I like to do zealot archon, because regardless of what build terran goes with and what units they make, I can easily hold off long enough to tech switch if I need to. I still get the robo though in case of cloak banshees). You can also poke his front with stalkers. Versus good players, you won't get too much information. However, sometimes, the existence of maurders/tanks/turret, marine count, and bunker count can tell you a lot. Vs 4 naked rax, it's unscoutable vs a good player. You just have to account for it in your build, as in getting at least 3 gates before tech.
Yeah pretty much this. Personally I keep stalkers in front of their bunkers to see if they are going to pressure. Hopefully this shows a marauder or something. Either way I get a robo and chronoboost an observer first thing I do to see what they are up to. Medivac timings or ghost timings require a few minor changes in my build.
Also you can do the trick Alicia showed a few months back, but you have to do it before he gets to many units. The trick I'm talking about is sending a unit up his ramp/into his natural to take damage while a probe sneaks by. And if he doesn't have many units you shouldn't lose the units or maybe not even take hull damage.
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Hello TL,
I have a few questions about Protoss unit compositions & sentry use when fighting an MM army.
Once oyu get lots of sentries, are you supposed to switch away from zealots to some extent to in favor of stalkers? The reason I ask--- I find it to be counter productive to be splitting armies with lots of zealots in my armies. After the front chunk dies, my zealots are stuck, and while they are killing the front chunk, they are fodder for the marines behind the forcefields.
That being said, I am a bit confused on the proper roll of sentries in FF when fighting MM w/ a zealot stalker mix. When I am stalker heavy, I can simply split the army apart like I do when fighting roaches/hydras, and back up to take advantage of range. With zealots/stalkers, I pretty much just get 3 sentries or so for guardian shield and a few FF's to prevent retreating and a few pivotal terrain adjustmentrs as I see necessary, but other than that no real decisive FF strategy since splitting the army seems to hurt my zealots.
So--- Should I not be using FF like I would PvZ, due to the reason above, and continue just using it the way I have been using it? Sould my goal with offensive FFs when using a mix of zealot/stalker be to prevent kiting, or to use defensively on my own ramps? Do I want to migrate away from zealots & focus more on stalkers at some point to make my FF's more effective, like when collosi, immortal, HT are in the picture? I find zealots to be very useful against MM and doubt I'd want to forgo their use, but perhaps stalkers wouldn't suck so bad if I had tons of FF to help me out.
Appreciate all the help!
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On November 14 2011 18:12 rawler wrote:
Hello TL,
I have a few questions about Protoss unit compositions & sentry use when fighting an MM army.
Once oyu get lots of sentries, are you supposed to switch away from zealots to some extent to in favor of stalkers? The reason I ask--- I find it to be counter productive to be splitting armies with lots of zealots in my armies. After the front chunk dies, my zealots are stuck, and while they are killing the front chunk, they are fodder for the marines behind the forcefields.
That being said, I am a bit confused on the proper roll of sentries in FF when fighting MM w/ a zealot stalker mix. When I am stalker heavy, I can simply split the army apart like I do when fighting roaches/hydras, and back up to take advantage of range. With zealots/stalkers, I pretty much just get 3 sentries or so for guardian shield and a few FF's to prevent retreating and a few pivotal terrain adjustmentrs as I see necessary, but other than that no real decisive FF strategy since splitting the army seems to hurt my zealots.
So--- Should I not be using FF like I would PvZ, due to the reason above, and continue just using it the way I have been using it? Sould my goal with offensive FFs when using a mix of zealot/stalker be to prevent kiting, or to use defensively on my own ramps? Do I want to migrate away from zealots & focus more on stalkers at some point to make my FF's more effective, like when collosi, immortal, HT are in the picture? I find zealots to be very useful against MM and doubt I'd want to forgo their use, but perhaps stalkers wouldn't suck so bad if I had tons of FF to help me out.
Appreciate all the help!
That depends very much on the build you are doing. Some builds use stalkers to prevent drops for example while a zealot archon army will not have many stalkers. I think you can adapt your forcefields to if or howmuch of the terran army you can take out. Just note that you cannot skip zealots completely or marauder will ruin your day, so always keep some of them around. With charge kiting becomes less of a problem as well. Uuh I hope that explains it, tell me if it doesn't.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 14 2011 18:12 rawler wrote:
Hello TL,
I have a few questions about Protoss unit compositions & sentry use when fighting an MM army.
Once oyu get lots of sentries, are you supposed to switch away from zealots to some extent to in favor of stalkers? The reason I ask--- I find it to be counter productive to be splitting armies with lots of zealots in my armies. After the front chunk dies, my zealots are stuck, and while they are killing the front chunk, they are fodder for the marines behind the forcefields.
That being said, I am a bit confused on the proper roll of sentries in FF when fighting MM w/ a zealot stalker mix. When I am stalker heavy, I can simply split the army apart like I do when fighting roaches/hydras, and back up to take advantage of range. With zealots/stalkers, I pretty much just get 3 sentries or so for guardian shield and a few FF's to prevent retreating and a few pivotal terrain adjustmentrs as I see necessary, but other than that no real decisive FF strategy since splitting the army seems to hurt my zealots.
So--- Should I not be using FF like I would PvZ, due to the reason above, and continue just using it the way I have been using it? Sould my goal with offensive FFs when using a mix of zealot/stalker be to prevent kiting, or to use defensively on my own ramps? Do I want to migrate away from zealots & focus more on stalkers at some point to make my FF's more effective, like when collosi, immortal, HT are in the picture? I find zealots to be very useful against MM and doubt I'd want to forgo their use, but perhaps stalkers wouldn't suck so bad if I had tons of FF to help me out.
Appreciate all the help!
6-8 sentries should signify your ability to hold the front/natural area with zeal/sentry while your fewer count stalkers inside the main repel drops while you are reaching the tech of choice (double forge -> zeal/archon OR collo or something else). In terms of "do I use more stalkers because the ff's complicate my zeals?" No. Use the FF's to not "divide" the terran army like you would a zerg but rather to counter the kiting ability of stimmed mmm. Mixing in too many stalkers is usually a huge mistake as they simply melt to marauders. I use stalkers for anti air when going collo but usually my gateway army is 3 to 1 zeal to stalker with a good 4-8 sentry base and 2+ archons off of double forge.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 14 2011 17:23 headbus wrote:
How do you scout a terran after he 1rax FE's and you 1g expand.
Firstly I'm mid masters and the biggest problem I have vs 1rax fe is scouting the terran followup. Sometimes he can lay down fast tech and abuse my lack of tech in the midgame. He can lay down 4 naked barracks and do a mass marine followup, or a stim timing of some sort. It feels like guesswork, some games I get a fast robo into collosi and it pays off because it beats X build, but its rock paper scissors, I havn't figured out a way to safely scout his followup whereas he can simply scan.
1st stalker is key. I even chrono the stalker. Get to the front of his natural/base or w/e and feel it out. If there is a bunch of marines up the ramp it is safer to assume 1 rax FE (same as bunker). Can this be something else? Yes. That said, we play the number game you are MORE likely to be facing a expand build and even if they are cheesing you often times your best bet is to 1 gate expand anyways. If the map permits (larger) or you see no tech at all (which can mean cloak banshee, fast tank etc) get a fast robo. If you SNIFF a marauder delay the robo as you can reasonably assume no cloak shit is coming your way so instead get the faster double forge or 3 gates for a more robust opening. The robo only allows us to scout but if you get good enough info then you can delay that.
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InCOntrol - thx for the response! I've watched numerous replays of yours; your a great player and i've learned from watching you.
Anyway--- if you could help me, or anyone else-- I would really appreciate it. Just lost a PvT game terribly and I am honestly noty sure what I did wrong?
http://www.sc2replays.eu/s/!h4tnh
M
acro was doing well most the game, had earlier exp (did have 1 critical supply block early but made up for it later). I scouted a very maurader heavy build so I went very zealot heavy, with a few backup stalkers and collosi. In my experience, stimmed mauraders chew through stalkers, so I figured more zealots would be helpful. Right? I had +1 armor and him no upgrades, and I had charge & 1 immortal who i later discovered barely got a shot off.. I grabbed a 3rd base and started checking HT's but didn't get to realize the benefits of the 3rd base and templar tech because I engaged beforehand.
Basically, our relatively equal sized armies--- mine was annihilated, his was left standing almost fully in tact. Can someone please help me figure out what I did wrong? Here are some of my theories of waht went wrong, but I am sure not what the correct approach this his extremely high maurader count (but still enough marines to kill immortals) army.
Possibilities of my defeat: More stalkers to kill vikings and hit deep within army while zealots tank, more sentries & use FF (for some weird reason I totally did not use this), better positioning (had collosi up front--he attacked before I could get in position right), wait to attack until my third base produced better tech, dual forges & better chrono boost? 3-4 immortals instead of collosis?
Does this sound like the right way to handle this scenario in the future? Can anyone help me figure out why I lost so terribly? I fear immortals against mauraders because marines always accompany them and stimmed marines focus fireing can destroy immortals in seconds, unlike the collosi which can sit behind with range.
Thanks for your help!
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Another quick question about pylon placement -- If against P or T, you pretty much want to place it as close as possible to ur Nexus, right? That way you have maximum mining time for pylon build + subsequent buildings?
My real reason for asking this question was for Zerg, however. I used to always place my pylon at the corner of the top of my ramp when facing Z or random. However, I notice I am not always able to block off my ramp to 1 zealot space like this. Is there a general rule for pylon placement or does it differ every map drastically? Do you guys study each map or something to figure it all out? I see some put the pylon back far enough so it covers all bildings in front, and you put gateway & cyb together with a 1 space gap. Does this work on most maps? My problem with this is that i can't always get Cyb up fast enough to stop Zergling rush.
Thanks for ur help!
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On November 14 2011 23:25 rawler wrote:
Another quick question about pylon placement -- If against P or T, you pretty much want to place it as close as possible to ur Nexus, right? That way you have maximum mining time for pylon build + subsequent buildings?
My real reason for asking this question was for Zerg, however. I used to always place my pylon at the corner of the top of my ramp when facing Z or random. However, I notice I am not always able to block off my ramp to 1 zealot space like this. Is there a general rule for pylon placement or does it differ every map drastically? Do you guys study each map or something to figure it all out? I see some put the pylon back far enough so it covers all bildings in front, and you put gateway & cyb together with a 1 space gap. Does this work on most maps? My problem with this is that i can't always get Cyb up fast enough to stop Zergling rush.
Thanks for ur help!
Pylon in the back with 2 3x3 buildings in front is best. You will need to more or less know each map as there are some variations of doing this. If you scout a early pool (i.e. 6-8pool), I would suggest you drop another gateway or forge instead of trying to get a cybercore. Your first gateway won't finish in time to get the cybercore up if it's an early pool. I would also suggest immediately after building a second pylon to power your front in case zerglings do get in and try and take out your powering pylon. Pull probes to block ramp until zealot gets out and you should be fine. If you've got a forge, you can always fully wall off as well with a 3rd building. However, I do generally like to leave a gap in case my scouting probe dies, I want to know if the zerg player is expanding or going for a heavy roach follow up push.
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In PvP, if I know I'm behind on the colossus-race, should I just go down a different tech patch (zealot-archon?) or should I just try my best to catch up and force a good engagement? Can mass immortal from 2 robos handle 6-7 colossi when the opponent comes at me with his big push?
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On November 15 2011 05:54 tuukster wrote:
In PvP, if I know I'm behind on the colossus-race, should I just go down a different tech patch (zealot-archon?) or should I just try my best to catch up and force a good engagement? Can mass immortal from 2 robos handle 6-7 colossi when the opponent comes at me with his big push?
It depends on your current available tech and economy. If you're convinced the other guy is going nuts with colossi and is just massing them, then you can get Void Rays and melt his army. Or you could abuse blink mobility, flank with chargelot/archon, use warp prism harass.
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EPT
