EPTI typically 1 gate FE and when I see gas first I usually spend all my chronos on sentries before warpgate finishes. Is this an unnecessary response (or perhaps under reaction, i.e. I should 3gate expand or something)?
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ant885
United States52 Posts
I typically 1 gate FE and when I see gas first I usually spend all my chronos on sentries before warpgate finishes. Is this an unnecessary response (or perhaps under reaction, i.e. I should 3gate expand or something)? | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On November 15 2011 06:39 ant885 wrote: In PvZ, is a gas first build indicative of anything but speedling aggression/map control (assuming natural is taken @ standardish time)? I typically 1 gate FE and when I see gas first I usually spend all my chronos on sentries before warpgate finishes. Is this an unnecessary response (or perhaps under reaction, i.e. I should 3gate expand or something)? Well 14 gas 14 pool and 14 pool 14 gas are both standard builds, so don't think to much about it. What you want to scout is if the zerg harvests more than 100 gas before pulling the drones off. There's no need to chronoboost the gateway that much if you are planning on 3gate expanding. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On November 14 2011 21:43 rawler wrote: InCOntrol - thx for the response! I've watched numerous replays of yours; your a great player and i've learned from watching you. Anyway--- if you could help me, or anyone else-- I would really appreciate it. Just lost a PvT game terribly and I am honestly noty sure what I did wrong? http://www.sc2replays.eu/s/!h4tnh M acro was doing well most the game, had earlier exp (did have 1 critical supply block early but made up for it later). I scouted a very maurader heavy build so I went very zealot heavy, with a few backup stalkers and collosi. In my experience, stimmed mauraders chew through stalkers, so I figured more zealots would be helpful. Right? I had +1 armor and him no upgrades, and I had charge & 1 immortal who i later discovered barely got a shot off.. I grabbed a 3rd base and started checking HT's but didn't get to realize the benefits of the 3rd base and templar tech because I engaged beforehand. Basically, our relatively equal sized armies--- mine was annihilated, his was left standing almost fully in tact. Can someone please help me figure out what I did wrong? Here are some of my theories of waht went wrong, but I am sure not what the correct approach this his extremely high maurader count (but still enough marines to kill immortals) army. Possibilities of my defeat: More stalkers to kill vikings and hit deep within army while zealots tank, more sentries & use FF (for some weird reason I totally did not use this), better positioning (had collosi up front--he attacked before I could get in position right), wait to attack until my third base produced better tech, dual forges & better chrono boost? 3-4 immortals instead of collosis? Does this sound like the right way to handle this scenario in the future? Can anyone help me figure out why I lost so terribly? I fear immortals against mauraders because marines always accompany them and stimmed marines focus fireing can destroy immortals in seconds, unlike the collosi which can sit behind with range. Thanks for your help! 1. You were down 20 supply. 2. That immortal you made could have been a colossus instead, only switch to immortal production if it's specific to your build or if he has enough vikings so that making more is a waste. And don't make too many of course. 3. Use guardian shield a little earlier will prevent some damage and EMPs. 4. You should have a way stronger economy at this point in the game, your probe production is inconsistent. 5. You are not making colossi non-stop either. 6. The timing when you attacked his army was really bad, it was right after the templar archives was done abd +1 attack is only halfway done. Try to line your upgrades up to finish at roughly the same time and attack. You did get range at that timing but he had no EMPs so the sentry zealot army should be enough to keep him away from your colossus anyway. Even so range should be done several minutes ago. Get range when you can while constantly making colossi. However the ratio of units you have is fine. What I see is that you need more sentries and colossi. And in general a stronger economy will get you more of all these units. Edit: lol iNcontroL, almost 27k posts. Is there some kind of leaderboard for who got the most posts? That'd be pretty interesting to see. | ||
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Serge89
Belgium38 Posts
In PvT, i usually go for 1 Gate FE(Huk's style) and i got some big difficulties to defend against pressure with the specific compositions: scv's + marauders + rins, even in really small numbers. Like Huk i go for stalkers first but they get crushed by rauders and zelots get kite.Which unit composition do i need to be comfortable with ? In PvZ, i always go for FFE but some maps are not viable for this and i saw some days ago a lesson with MC explaining a very safe build --> 2 Gates FE into Stargate. So, does someone know the specific build order or is there a guide ? Thanks in advance ;-) | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On November 15 2011 07:32 Serge89 wrote: Hi, Master Terran who switched Toss(diamond now^^). In PvT, i usually go for 1 Gate FE(Huk's style) and i got some big difficulties to defend against pressure with the specific compositions: scv's + marauders + rins, even in really small numbers. Like Huk i go for stalkers first but they get crushed by rauders and zelots get kite.Which unit composition do i need to be comfortable with ? In PvZ, i always go for FFE but some maps are not viable for this and i saw some days ago a lesson with MC explaining a very safe build --> 2 Gates FE into Stargate. So, does someone know the specific build order or is there a guide ? Thanks in advance ;-) HuK FE VOD 2 Gate SG FE Hope these help  | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
I just stopped doing it because I would die SO fast to ling roach pressure, or if you lose your sentries, game over. :[ Good news though, FFE and 2gate stargate is awesome... | ||
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rawler
United States156 Posts
I prefer 1 gate FE followed by 2 gates, a forge, and lots of sentries with a little early zealot harass--- of course, FFE is better. Have you been building 2 stargate right off the line after cyb core? I imagne this will make good early harass and void rays with phoenixes for the queens could win the game right there, but what do you do when hydras come out? I guess the good part is you don't have to worry about Muts very much, and corruptors are slow enough to outrun with pheonixes. Do you keep up the phoenixes for harass the whole game despite hydras? In one match of mine, I had 6 phoenixes and they surprisngly were able to kill 4 stray hydras and can help pick up roaches & reduce DPS | ||
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paintfive
785 Posts
FFE for Metal, Xel naga, and Shattered, most of them were copied directly from pro replays so they should be pretty safe. I messed up 12 oclock temple but it should be easy to figure out. | ||
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rawler
United States156 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On November 15 2011 18:02 rawler wrote: PvT - what do you guys think about sending single zealots into marine lines (preferably chargelots) when siege tanks are around, in order to cause splash damage to their own troops? Does the zealot usually just die before it gets there? Is this a worthwhile practice or an inefficient waste of $? Completely situationally dependent. Usually you need them to add DPS and spread damage to the bio. On November 15 2011 16:02 rawler wrote: Mizu--- I hate the 3gate sentry expand. If you go to pressure his base and make one mistake and lose your sentries, game over...Also, your econ is WAY behind Zerg--- by the time you go to pressure, I find them to already be ahead most the time! I prefer 1 gate FE followed by 2 gates, a forge, and lots of sentries with a little early zealot harass--- of course, FFE is better. Have you been building 2 stargate right off the line after cyb core? I imagne this will make good early harass and void rays with phoenixes for the queens could win the game right there, but what do you do when hydras come out? I guess the good part is you don't have to worry about Muts very much, and corruptors are slow enough to outrun with pheonixes. Do you keep up the phoenixes for harass the whole game despite hydras? In one match of mine, I had 6 phoenixes and they surprisngly were able to kill 4 stray hydras and can help pick up roaches & reduce DPS 2gates. gate, core, stargate, gate. I like to harass, force defensive, snipe the third or delay it, kill stray ovies. While doing that, build up 4-5 sentries, expo, and play defensive until maybe 4-5 sentries, 1-2 zealots, 4-5 stalkers, and push and try to snipe the late third. I usually have +1 done by the push too. I stop getting stargate after maybe 2 voids and a phoenix. If they rush to hydras, you'll be able to kill the third. Assuming you have a proxy pylon. Then just turtle a little for the counter attack. You should have a robo and an immortal up by then? Then just transition into colossi and win ^^ | ||
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rawler
United States156 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On November 15 2011 19:40 rawler wrote: Immortal for the Hyrda counter attack? *shivers* -- probably not the best idea! Immortals plus stalkers plus FFs vs roach hydra does pretty ok in a defensive posture. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On November 15 2011 19:28 mizU wrote: Completely situationally dependent. Usually you need them to add DPS and spread damage to the bio. 2gates. gate, core, stargate, gate. I like to harass, force defensive, snipe the third or delay it, kill stray ovies. While doing that, build up 4-5 sentries, expo, and play defensive until maybe 4-5 sentries, 1-2 zealots, 4-5 stalkers, and push and try to snipe the late third. I usually have +1 done by the push too. I stop getting stargate after maybe 2 voids and a phoenix. If they rush to hydras, you'll be able to kill the third. Assuming you have a proxy pylon. Then just turtle a little for the counter attack. You should have a robo and an immortal up by then? Then just transition into colossi and win ^^ So the zerg is taking a third by the time you expand to your natural? O.o That sounds very dangerous if you cant take it out. Do you always shut it down or can the air attack fail? Also yeah better make an immortal while the support bay is building than making nothing. At least if you can afford constant warp gate production. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On November 15 2011 20:28 Latedi wrote: So the zerg is taking a third by the time you expand to your natural? O.o That sounds very dangerous if you cant take it out. Do you always shut it down or can the air attack fail? Also yeah better make an immortal while the support bay is building than making nothing. At least if you can afford constant warp gate production. The natural should be up by then, but if they take a really quick third, you'll be able to kill it almost guaranteed. | ||
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MeLo
Australia192 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On November 15 2011 20:34 MeLo wrote: How do I move out and not lose anything on the counter against Mutaling? Have lots of cannons and 1-2 templar at each base. | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On November 15 2011 20:30 mizU wrote: The natural should be up by then, but if they take a really quick third, you'll be able to kill it almost guaranteed. Sounds nice, I think this might be a good option if the zerg doesn't hatch first and you're not planning on doing a forge FE. The reason I say that is because early stalker pressure is so good when zerg gets no speed. However this build allows you to pressure even then. I'll probably give it a try ^^ | ||
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zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
On November 15 2011 11:04 mizU wrote: Am I the only person that feels like 3-gate sentry expanding is too volatile in PvZ? I just stopped doing it because I would die SO fast to ling roach pressure, or if you lose your sentries, game over. :[ Good news though, FFE and 2gate stargate is awesome... it's usually better to 1 gate FE and then add on two gates at your nat straight afterwards. if you constantly chrono your gateway since building your first sentry, you get 5 sentries and one zealot by the time warpgate is done. you can then warp in stalkers if you smell a ling/roach push coming. then it's down to how well you forcefield. even if you somehow lose your nexus, if you can clean up the ling/roach without losing much you can just go and pressure him right back while rebuilding your nexus. | ||
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rawler
United States156 Posts
Tried immortalsa gainst mass thor but they didn't do as good as I hoped... you need double robo pumping constant chrono to match their production =-\ Harder for Toss, we don't have mules! | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On November 15 2011 07:03 Latedi wrote: Well 14 gas 14 pool and 14 pool 14 gas are both standard builds, so don't think to much about it. What you want to scout is if the zerg harvests more than 100 gas before pulling the drones off. There's no need to chronoboost the gateway that much if you are planning on 3gate expanding. Lately I've been playing really paranoid any time I see those early gas builds. First, there is just no reason for a zerg to get ling speed that early other than to be able to kill your probe (but what is it exactly that he does not want you to see??). Second, early gas is suboptimal in terms of going for a good econ macro play. Thus I think that while he could be playing standard, there is a very high chance of him going for some kind of all-in, either on hatch tech (roach/ling or bane/ling) or a fast lair (nydus, drop, etc). It could also mean fast mutas or fast infestors or fast hydras. So basically you have to be prepared for everything. Usually my response is to automatically add another cannon or two when I see early gas (I almost always FFE). Tech fast while trying to scout as well as you can (which is really hard). | ||
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