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On September 21 2011 06:29 zickoray wrote:
haha id like to offer my services to help out i am the lvl of the people who will need this program and i think i could be a big help seeing how my pvt is quite good
so add me to the list please
cLvzickoray.848
Zick, I can play a few games at this hour or a couple hours earlier most nights. Feel like training with a silver terran? I haven't played against toss in ages. Specifically, I would like to find out if this build is viable against them, particularly if a 4gate is on the way.
Lemme know if thats cool and I'll add you. If you're diamond, shame on you for trying to hustle us lowly silvers 
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On September 21 2011 07:08 Autofire2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 06:17 Adrenaline Seed wrote:On September 21 2011 04:59 Autofire2 wrote:
Thanks. Also, your thoughts on the new patch? Biggest thought. What in the world I am going to do for the extra 5 seconds my racks is building. Yeah I just tried it. It feels...horrible. How can blizz introduce a change which so thoroughly messes up the smoothness of the ONLY standard opener terran has? That is to say, the 10supply 12rax 13ref 15OC. So does this mean that the optimal time to move out is now 6:55? or is this timing attack now not workable at all?
Actually it doesn't fit with the gas first factory right at 100 gas after racks either. So it is an unhappy day for Terran. A 5 second wait that early in the game does not equate to only being 5 seconds behind in your build, so somehow things are going to need to be slightly readjusted.
I am certainly not scouting until after my racks starts so I can afford it as soon as possible.
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Let me know if you figure it out. Finally got back on the ladder today, and although it was a lot worse execution than against my friend (ladder nerves after many months away i guess) I stomped through sheer numbers in the end, taking out his expo and putting mine down. I got promoted to Gold  hopefully i belong there or this'll be realllly frustrating...
But cheers Seed! I dedicate this victory to you.
PS. Please let me know as soon as you have the build timing reworked because I'm pumped to perfect it now....the benchmark REALLY helped my macro more than the vague "yeah, make more SCVs and dudes because your macro sucks" criticism us low level players usually get.
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I have yet to get home and try to figure out this build with the new barracks build time timing (and I was so happy to have perfected phase 2 last night!), but I'm only worried about how it would affect the timing of the OC. Obviously, when the second and third barracks finish up is going to be delayed, but when I do the build super crisply, I'm often at 52 or 53 food at 6:40, so I'm going to bet (hope) that it still won't be a problem to get to 50 food.
Regarding the OC timing though, before the patch, my 15th SCV was always finishing a few seconds before the barracks finished, so there were already a few seconds where my CC was idle. So now given that my barracks will take 5 seconds longer, I'm guessing there will be like 8 seconds where the CC is idle before I can start the OC.
So what I'm planning to do is build a 16th SCV and start my OC as soon as it's done. My barracks will finish when that 16th SCV is about halfway done, and I can move right along with my marine > tech lab > marauder.
When I hit the timings well, there aren't a lot of excess minerals, but I don't expect that it's so tight that delaying the OC/Mules will affect the build much.
But, I will definitely find out tonight.
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Thanks Xanythz. keep us posted? I'm really wondering this myself.
Also, to Seed or anyone else who knows: I'm getting a sense of the build TvP and TvT, but what about TvZ? Won't this let them drone like monsters and destroy me? Marauder heavy armies crumble to zerglings as it is...(EDIT) and aren't pure bio armies rubbish against zerg anyway? Or am I getting ahead of myself (I tried doing complex builds as silver and got knocked about pretty bad) and this will work fine through Platinum?
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I just got done playing around with this for a bit and the build is still definitely viable within the 6:40 second timeframe. Here is a link to a replay in which I hit 50 food, have stim done, and about 20 seconds left on concussive shell at 6:40.
http://www.mediafire.com/?s9dm8zo9h4e6aa8
The build definitely feels tighter than before. In the replay version, I built my second depot at the same time I started my OC. I tried other versions in which I built the second depot before and after my OC, but I like how everything lined up in this replay the best.
EDIT: In my original post, I said I build my second depot right after my OC. That actually wasn't the case and now I can't remember what happened in which version I tried. I still like this replay the best though out of the ones I tried. I edited the post to match what's in the replay.
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So I played around with the build a bit more and feel I have it pretty smoothed out. I am milliseconds late on an SCV or Marauder here and there, but feel really good doing the build. I said before that the build feels a lot tighter now that barracks take 65 seconds to build, so I am posting my exact build order with a new replay and some notes to maybe help others hit the timings. It would be great if A Seed or others could comment if I am off base here so I don't lead others down the wrong path.
Anyway, here is the exact BO.
+ Show Spoiler +10-Supply Depot(1)
12-Barracks(2)
13-Refinery(3)
16-Marine
17-Orbital Command(4)
17-Supply Depot
17-Tech Lab
20-Marauder (repeat)
20-Barracks
21-Stim (5)
24-Supply Depot
27-Barracks(6)
28-Supply Depot
28-Reactor
32-Supply Depot
35-Tech Lab
38-Double Marine (repeat)
38-Supply Depot
39-Marauder (repeat)
43-Concussive Shell
46-Supply Depot
Here is a link to the new replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?uu7u1ped619ltal
And here are some notes and hints on hitting all the timings.
Note 1
+ Show Spoiler +Rally your 9th SCV to where you want to build that 1st depot (should be close to your CC) to make sure he's there right when you have 100 minerals.
Note 2
+ Show Spoiler +I send my SCV around 125 minerals to make sure I start the barracks on time.
Note 3
+ Show Spoiler +I send my SCV around 60 minerals to make sure I start the refinery on time. I also queue up my 15th and 16th SCV so that I can focus on putting two more SCVs in gas right as the refinery finishes. Forgetting to put SCVs in gas will inevitably make your Stim late.
Note 4
+ Show Spoiler +Pay close attention to when the 16th SCV finishes; you need to start your OC and 2nd supply depot as soon as it does. I find that sending an SCV to where I am going to build that depot, but not actually building it, right before that 16th SCV finishes, allows me to start that 2nd depot right after the OC starts.
Note 5
+ Show Spoiler +Now that it takes 5 seconds longer for your barracks to finish, it's SUPER IMPORTANT to start Stim right when you get 100min/100 gas. In the replay, I start Stim at 3:50, which means that with a 170 second build time, it finishes right as I need to move out. There is like no room for error with Stim. (Note: I actually had the money for Stim at 3:49, so at least for me, I had 1 second of wiggle room).
Note 6
+ Show Spoiler +I queue my third marauder right before building my 3rd barracks to make sure there isn't a gap in Marauder production. I know queueing in general is bad, but I don't think there's really anything else to do with those minerals at this point.
Don't forget to rally SCVs back to minerals. Try to stay on top of your MULEs too. Money is a bit tight. All the other tips from the OP still apply.
I also updated the YABOT build order I had put on sc2builds.com. It can be found at http://www.sc2builds.com/build-info.aspx?id=2171 if that's helpful to anyone.
EDIT: In the original version of this post, I wrote that you start your first marine on 17. The marine really needs to start on 16, which brings your food count to 17. My mistake, and this is corrected in the BO above.
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Thanks a ton man. Very detailed post. I will try it out, and I hope ASeed confirms this is the way to roll.
My earlier question though: does this work against Zerg?
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Thank you Adrenaline Seed! I read this learning post a few months ago and only lightly adhered to its principles. Yesterday I took it upon myself to put a sticky note on my monitor with the build order and after 4 games (no losses!)
I was promoted!!!
I'm going to keep practicing my timing, works against all races, and I do believe a YABOT with time goals will improve even further.
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Great exercise for training. Most builds I find stop around 20 supply leaving me raking in minerals I can't spend. The length of this build has already seriously helped my discipline with macro and I just started training today. I'm still struggling to hit the 50 supply by 6:40. This build is crazy tight but I love how I can feel it pushing my abilities. The first time I did the build I was 30 seconds behind getting to 50 supply and felt I was at the edge of my capabilities. After a few times practicing I'm still behind by 10-15 seconds getting to 50 supply but I no longer feel so rushed and on the edge of collapse just trying to keep up with the build. A great exercise indeed. Just what I needed.
Don't know who's read the thread about Spending Quotient
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266019
It's basically a way of measuring macro using info from the score screen. If you do this build right it puts you in the upper 80's or lower 90's. That's Idra level macro for the first 7 minutes of the game.
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Thanks for looking into this Xanthyz. I approve. I have done some experimentation myself and found that with and without a 16th scv you can meet the 6:40 mark with 7 marauders and 5 marines. Exactly the same as original build.
I don't like the feel of the new rax build time though, it bothers me in all my ladder builds. Anyways I did some kicking around with this build and decided it should not be changed since it still meets the needs of the training program. I did however find an interesting alternative.
With this experimental build you replace 3 marauders with 5 marines by 6:40, however you get 12 marines and 6 marauders before 7 mins because of the production cycle timing. So a 7 minute push out is more optimal (also since upgrades are delayed). This is a huge DPS difference vs light units and could be more lethal for players a bit more comfortable with marine micro. I have no desire to use any 3rax vs high diamond/masters but if someone in gold or plat is interested in trying it out here it is.
I never said it was an easy build either
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13378
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Thanks A Seed. I realized after spending all night working out the timings for a 16th SCV before OC, that I didn't spend nearly as much time trying out the 16th SCV after OC. I'm glad to hear it doesn't affect the build either way, but feel like that has larger implications for any build that uses the "standard" OC opening, so it's something I'll play with in the future when I finally learn some new builds.
And I'm glad this isn't an easy build. Learning this build to near perfection has made me realize things that I had heard were "good" things and knew I should do them if I could, but didn't understand why they were good. Like I had heard that some pros put their starting SCVs on the far minerals to give them a slight edge. While I understood that having a slightly shorter return trip might give a few extra minerals, I never understood why it was important until I tried it and realized that doing it gave me just enough extra minerals to always have 50 to start my 8th SCV just before the 7th finished.
@kmeanster (and a general comment for this build): Working out this build for the new patch, I realized that I find it a lot easier to think of this build in terms of relative timings instead of supply count timing. For example, when putting down my second barracks, I try to put it down as soon as I get 150 minerals after starting my first marauder instead of basing it purely off 20 food. 20 food is just when that timing hits. Another example, I know to start concussive shells right when my second tech lab finishes, and it just so happens that's at 43 food. The reason I think that's easier is because it serves as sort of a mnemonic device to remember what I need to do next. It syncs what I need to do next with what I'm doing now. My suggestion, as you continue trying to hit the 6:40 mark, is to work out little reminders for when to start your next building/upgrade based on what you just did. Then use the build posted as kind of a benchmark. However, I'm no pro, so take from that what you will. But hopefully some of the things that helped me out will help you too.
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Cheers to both of you! Lot of great info here.
But can anyone answer my earlier question regarding zerg? As in, on Gold will this work against zerg opponents without letting them drone up superhard, especially given that marauders are weak to zerglings? Obviously if they're one basing I'm just going to sit in my base but other than that...
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Autofire2, I can't speak from experience here (yet), but based on the OP, I'm going to say yes, it will work.
How to use 3 Racks on Silver - Gold Ladder
Push at 6:40 with 50+ food.
Try not to use more than one Stim, make it count.
vs Zerg keep your Mauraders in front (this is good vs banes, lings, and crawlers)
vs Terran send one marine up ramp to check for siege/bunker or double bunker.
vs Protoss pre-stim up ramp then attack (this is careless in diamond play but should get most units past FF before they notice)
I guess even though Marauders are weak vs. lings, they will tank the damage from the lings while the marines deal the real damage.
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@Xanthyz: Thanks for taking the time to work it out and share! What community spirit.
One observation, something I picked off Day9, is that you don't need the Stim right when you're moving out. You basically need it only somewhere near his base. I sometimes move out before stim (playing by ear, more or less to have stim around mid-map or Xel'Naga towers if we meet halfway), but sometimes there are some units down my ramp, in which case I'd probably go back up and wait for stim or more units. Stim would be bad because it would take the 10 HP off al of my units, while only a portion of his units would be taking damage and possibly dying from my stim attack; on the other hand, merely waiting for more stuff could be good, then either filing down the ramp and fanning out (attack-move click at the appropriate distance behind the enemy units to get concave), or trying to split and flank them to make sure nothing survives, then going to his base and killing him with the rest. Preferably fast since he will know what's coming and could get lucky with base defences.
On September 22 2011 14:31 Autofire2 wrote:
Cheers to both of you! Lot of great info here.
But can anyone answer my earlier question regarding zerg? As in, on Gold will this work against zerg opponents without letting them drone up superhard, especially given that marauders are weak to zerglings? Obviously if they're one basing I'm just going to sit in my base but other than that...
The problem with bio against zerg, from a gold player's perspective, is that zerglings will pwn anything that doesn't kite them and especially marauders (except when you have concussive and a lot of marauders), while banelings will kill marines easily, as I suppose few gold Terrans can split effectively (hotkeying marines to several smaller groups before engagement could be a substitute to mouse-splitting them in the heat of action, although it would take a couple of seconds; but this is a useful skill to have). I suppose much depends on your kiting abilities and the use of stim. The key would be to learn to judge the numbers of the zerglings approximately vs the need to stim or not (or whether it will pay to stim all of your guys for a smaller group of zerglings to avoid your units dying but suffer a -10 HP on all of them). This would be an intuitive thing, taking time to develop and generally being an educated guess.
And I dread going out bio against zerg. I'm so used to hellion-thor in this matchup that it's going to be hard to abandon this in favour of a more demanding and less favouring build. But at least I will have fewer deaths against roach rush even if my TvZ win %% will likely take a hit.
@Adrenaline Seed:
If you don't mind, I'd have a couple of questions regarding this build since I'm about to commit to it for a while due to my inability to defend an early expo consistently (which sucks from the perspective of a former Warcraft 2 Battle.net Edition player used to "dualing", i.e. two-basing or two-halling from the very start). I've decided to pick the 7:00 build because I suspect a good marine count is more important than a good marauder count (except a 5:00 concussive push or something like that) and I'm pretty sure the 20 seconds of delay will be worth the gain.
So, firstly, how do you defend against early aggression, since I see you don't wall in and I suppose walling in could hurt the timings. There's a lot of early aggression going in gold, hence my question. I suppose anything can be defended, except the build will go somewhat messy, except I worry about the marine-only all-in. Those guys can have plenty of marines by even 5:00.
Secondly, depending on the situation, we may end up with a number of units that have suffered some damage, or even a lot of damage, but not died, in addition to stim damage (or from defending the base before stim finishes). One could just keep replacing the units but one could tech to medivacs. What would you suggest? Also, would you suggest trying to get cute with elevators (for newer players: using one or two medivacs to load units before a cliff and unload them after that cliff, for example to attack from behind) and mineral line harass while busting the front or should one, at the gold level (or silver, or bronze, or plat etc.) concentrate all his attention on not botching the frontal attack on the ramp?
Some info for bronze and maybe silver players about early pushing with pure bio (unsupported infantry). Someone from higher leages please confirm if this is useful and worth bothering:
Busting the front of his base: you can scan the ramp just before attacking to gain/improve your vision, which is especially useful if the opponent is a terran with some early siege tanks which this push should be able to defeat because those tanks will be low in number and their cost will harm his infantry production and upgrades, including probably no stim for him, in fact, if you strike quickly, he may even not have researched siege tech (and early siege tech means fewer tanks than if you research siege tech later). By the way, even when he does have tanks sieged up, it's likely better to pre-stim (first scan then stim, all from hotkeys, e.g. 5 for OC, S for scan, 1 for your infantry group, T for stim—million times quicker than clicking through all of it) than to wait for your own tanks, by which time he will have many more tanks, including siege tech, and you will have only a few in addition to wasting your infantry advantage. But if he somehow manages to have three tanks sieged on the cliff of his base and a decent marine count, which some people are capable of doing, then you'd better not try to bust it unless you really know what you're doing (unless you feel comfortable losing a couple of games to gain a sense of how many tanks you can bust with your typical amount of infantry while pushing, which is useful knowledge... but you'd better gain it in practice matches with your friends). Personally, I love busting sieged tanks (it probably scares the opponent when you do things like that) but I sometimes die when I neglect well-positioned enemy tanks while killing infantry. Scanning the ramp could be useful against Protoss too, especially with stalkers and especially considering the -1 vision up the ramp with the lastest patch that became effective yesterday. My personal trick: sometimes I order my infantry to move in the cliff/ramp corner (not the ramp itself) while scanning and stimming. A lower league opponent may be surprised by my not even bothering with the ramp, making him lose units before he gets an idea what to do (any melee units will have a longer distance to travel and less ability to surround, as opposed to blocking your way when his ranged units are outranging yours) and before my scan runs out (important), after which it's easier to push up the decimated ramp (especially if his units either die in large numbers or escape far away, leaving you free to kill the wall and/or any buildings neighbouring the ramp or cliff). Against Protoss you can kill sentries as priority targets in order to avoid force-fields. Forcefields are bad not because they block his ramp but much more so because they split your army in half (even a newbie Protoss can mess up a newbie Terran a great deal with even a poorly placed, semi-random FF). If you get split like that by an FF, you must "hug" the forcefield or multiple forcefields closely from both sides to minimise range differences between your units (those farther behind may be out of range) or use micro to delay engagement until forcefield runs out, which is doable. Just make sure your units aren't walking instead of firing back. Against Terran, you can scan-bust some bunker positions this way or quickly kill his wall to get into his base easily (especially considering that losing two depots will almost certainly get him supply-blocked, and killing the addon on his wall rax is well worth it, especially if it's a reactor or a working tech lab (see animation to know whether he's researching something, you could be lucky to prevent his own stim). Essential when pushing against a Protoss: kill his pylons as priority. Not only does this get him supply-blocked but you can shut down his production. Bronze or silver Protoss players are likely to have a single, not well positioned pylon, powering up some essential buildings, if only two gateways (which is already worth shutting at the beginning of a battle), at the same time. Or more than one photon cannon when they turtle. Against more than one photon cannon you just attack the pylon. Or even two pylons if there are two pylons (just make sure you're in range to kill the pylons). Against a single photon cannon it's your call (I think the pylon is still a better target). Against zerg, kill his overlords with marines whenever you get a chance (unless too many of his units are attack you or his drones are running away or all your marines have died and you need to kill a spire or something), as that hurts his supply a lot, forces him to use larvae on overlords, limits the numbers of lings or anything he can spawn even if he has a lot of larvae waiting. Against any race, if you're withdrawing but still have some seconds left (you shouldn't be withdrawing from a push just because you can't kill when he still can't hit you back), kill his supply before or while retreating (and remember to finish off any badly damaged buildings especially if they're important buildings and/or you don't see any supply buildings/ovvies close enough to you). Or kill some buildings that are required for teching up (I rarely see anybody purposefully killing supply in SC2 but it was done in Warcraft 3 and a lot of my pushes relied on ignoring the army while killing supply or tech buildings first). Remember to make your reinforcements. You can rally them to his base (preferably set the rallying point at some distance to avoid getting intercepted) or you can rally the units in your base to defend in case he's already on his way to your base (which happens) or decides to go and kill you or was going for an air or drop push (which happens), depending on your preference. But remember to keep producing while you're fighting. When you don't absolutely need to be microing, press/hold the rax hotkey and D or A (marauder and marine respectively) for a while to make sure you're producing. I've lost some games like an idiot because of not reinforcing (or creating a second army back in base), as silly as this sounds.
Sorry for the huge cluster of text. Hope it's useful to someone.
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On September 22 2011 14:31 Autofire2 wrote:
Cheers to both of you! Lot of great info here.
But can anyone answer my earlier question regarding zerg? As in, on Gold will this work against zerg opponents without letting them drone up superhard, especially given that marauders are weak to zerglings? Obviously if they're one basing I'm just going to sit in my base but other than that...
This is an example of a counter to the 3rax build. A quality TvZ build involves early pressure to fast tech.
On September 22 2011 20:29 NewbieOne wrote:
@Adrenaline Seed:
If you don't mind, I'd have a couple of questions regarding this build since I'm about to commit to it for a while due to my inability to defend an early expo consistently (which sucks from the perspective of a former Warcraft 2 Battle.net Edition player used to "dualing", i.e. two-basing or two-halling from the very start). I've decided to pick the 7:00 build because I suspect a good marine count is more important than a good marauder count (except a 5:00 concussive push or something like that) and I'm pretty sure the 20 seconds of delay will be worth the gain.
So, firstly, how do you defend against early aggression, since I see you don't wall in and I suppose walling in could hurt the timings. There's a lot of early aggression going in gold, hence my question. I suppose anything can be defended, except the build will go somewhat messy, except I worry about the marine-only all-in. Those guys can have plenty of marines by even 5:00.
Secondly, depending on the situation, we may end up with a number of units that have suffered some damage, or even a lot of damage, but not died, in addition to stim damage (or from defending the base before stim finishes). One could just keep replacing the units but one could tech to medivacs. What would you suggest? Also, would you suggest trying to get cute with elevators (for newer players: using one or two medivacs to load units before a cliff and unload them after that cliff, for example to attack from behind) and mineral line harass while busting the front or should one, at the gold level (or silver, or bronze, or plat etc.) concentrate all his attention on not botching the frontal attack on the ramp?
Let me know how it works out.
You should not have to worry about early pressure as your getting a lot of units as fast as possible. You need bunkers on your ramp when your going for fast tech, like cloaked banshee. Use ramp to your advantage, if they go marine all in pull all the way back to your CC and pull all your scvs in front of your army then attack, keep units coming out of racks attacking right away, use scv stop/attack micro to get the most out of their health. As soon as you know your ahead get scvs out of there.
You will find that if you try to tech to medivac and get enough energy to heal all your units it takes too long, giving your opponent plenty of time to expand and tech. The build is all about winning at the ramp, you need to do massive damage in your very first attack.
I will post up a replay of the 2rax expand TvP build as well next time I do it, many have asked about that. I am surprised more people don't complain about sentries, the most annoying counter to this build, the 2 rax is a great counter, deny expo and expand yourself.
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On September 22 2011 20:29 NewbieOne wrote:@Xanthyz: Thanks for taking the time to work it out and share! What community spirit. One observation, something I picked off Day9, is that you don't need the Stim right when you're moving out. You basically need it only somewhere near his base.
Very true. The reason I was stressing over making sure stim was done before I moved out at 6:40 is because the OP said stim should be done by 6:40 . So maybe in reality, it doesn't matter if stim is done right when you move out, but for this exercise, it is important imo.
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Loving the concept, and I'm definitely going to try some of this out myself.
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Wouldn't it be helpful to have a chat channel for getting help with phase 3? Or just discussion about this stuff in general.
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EPT
