|
On September 06 2011 01:50 Tuplex wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 22:30 KenDM wrote:
EDIT:
I edited this post because I'm now out of rage mode (blush).
1 - The build: The food count for producing structures and units: If it says refinery on 13, does that mean refinery should be up BEFORE 13? Or start building refinery AT 13 food?
Secondly: I build my 2nd depot BEFORE 16 food because I'm desperate to get my wall up. How much consequences does this have?
2 - Adaptation: I lost to mutalisk a couple of times today with this 3Rax build. Any tips on how to defend? Stop marauder and produce full-time marines? Extra Rax? Or a reactor on an existing Rax? My Thors in all these games got owned by a magic box :S Any tips on how to adjust this build to certain dangerous situations would be helpfull.
1 - It means start building your refinery when you have 13 food. If you start your 2nd depot before 16, then it will delay your Orbital Command and/or first marine. Honestly, there's not a lot to worry about before 16 food, I don't think you need to start that second depot so early. 2 - If your attack at 6:40 doesn't succeed, and you suspect mutalisks are coming, then you could expand and put up an engineering bay, add a few more barracks, and go for heavy marines with turrets. You'll need that engineering bay anyway to upgrade your infantry, so this is an efficient way to do it. Question for Adrenaline Seed - do you recommend rallying reinforcements to your army when you push at 6:40? Or keep them in the base?
Thanks, and an interesting question. To add, I tried both ways, and for me I'm not sure what's best. If the first push is successful and you have an army left, rallying reinforcements to that army might give you more strength at the next push. I guess if your first push gets taken out, or gets crippled severely, it doesn't make sense to have scattered reinforcements rally up there anymore.
@ Seed: I'm starting to lose my faith in following this build blindly. Look at this replay, I think I got everything spot on right?
Replay is processing, I'll link you later. Drop.SC is tripping.
|
On September 06 2011 01:50 Tuplex wrote:
Question for Adrenaline Seed - do you recommend rallying reinforcements to your army when you push at 6:40? Or keep them in the base?
You don't need to rally. Your push is going to win against anything that does not counter it, and if your up against a counter you should prolly go home.
|
Dear all,
Apologizes to Master Adrenaline Seed. Now that I'm able to do the build in a correct way and able to expand if needed here are my results :
In 1 week :
21 games won
4 games lost
Nothing more to add I think.
GL
A1eks
|
I am still struggling with this build. I wind up with 4 marauders and 1-3 marines at exactly 6:40 in my opponent's natural. The rest of my troops are on the way. I find that, more often than not, I am up against a force of the same size or larger. I hit 50 food at 6:40 or 6:41 usually. What am I missing? Am I supposed to wait for backup? Am I still too slow?
Edit: I could be wrong here but it seems like I am not "poking" right. I tried taking out a unit or two and not committing until some reinforcements arrive; this seems to be working better.
|
I got the impression that we move out at 6:40, where I normally have 6 marauders and 4 marines. Should we be arriving at the opponent's front door at 6:40 instead?
|
On September 07 2011 04:55 A1eks wrote:
Dear all,
Apologizes to Master Adrenaline Seed. Now that I'm able to do the build in a correct way and able to expand if needed here are my results :
In 1 week :
21 games won
4 games lost
Nothing more to add I think.
GL
A1eks
I guess I had the same development as you have A1eks. But I'm beginning to stagnate, mostly because of trying to trust the build too much and it gets stale for me. It's win or lose the first push, maybe or maybe not have a good enough backup army depending on your opponents macro. More often than not, my games usually run into mid and even late game. In other words, they don't really end in the early game as often as I had expected. Meaning I need a build suited for that style of play.
@AdrenalineSeed: What do you think about the 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build?
|
On July 23 2011 07:19 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
what should I do?
You have many good suggestions. but I think preceding all this the most important thing to start out with is a keyboard that has an A key that has minimal resistance.
|
|
|
first of all, a big thanks for this great guide! i'm fairly new to sc2 and rts games in general and after a little getting used to the game i immediately started going by your guide and i really like it so far.
i also have a few questions:
1) in your replay you don't send out a scouting scv and you reach 50+ food at exactly 6:40, is this even possible when sending out a scouting scv (especially on 4-player maps)? without scouting i can replicate your BO in the given time, but with scouting (after first SD finishes) it doesn't seem to be possible, i usually reach 50+ food (~52) between 6:50 and 7:00.
2) i really like to wall up my ramp with 2 SDs and the first rax (+addon) to be safer against cheeses like 6pool etc. and to deny late (16+) scouting, but unfortunately on a lot of spawning positions this exposes the techlab of my rax at the front of my wall and thereby gives my opponent the opportunity to snipe it and massively delay stim, which is disastrous for the build. would it maybe be better to use a slightly different 3rax variant with reactor first and techlabs on the 2nd and 3rd rax? it is also possible to build the raxes 2 and 3 much earlier (around 16/17 and around 19-20) so that stim and the 2nd upgrade are still done at around 7:00. this isn't my own idea btw, i borrowed it from Kaeru's (high EU masters) Terran beginner guide that uses such a reactor-first 3rax variant. what are your thoughts on this?
3) concerning the 2nd upgrade: i think shells is favorable vs protoss and combat shields vs terran, but i'm not sure what to choose vs zerg.
4) how do i transition out of this build vs protoss if the stim push doesn't outright win the game? i build a CC during the push and an engineering bay, a factory (reactor), a starport (swap onto factory's reactor) and an additional (naked) rax, i then go for MMM (+vikings if P has colossi) and later add ghosts, but what do i do with my factory? should i just put a techlab on and make tanks if i have spare min/gas or aren't tanks worth it against protoss and i shouldn't produce from it at all (which would free up gas for sooner ghosts)?
that would be all, once again a big thank you for making this awesome guide! 
|
@cdd: My 2 cents...
1) I'm not as good as A. Seed is, but I have been able to reach 50+ food with scouting, but I scout after the first barracks. I haven't tried it your way, but I don't think the build is so lean on minerals that you couldn't pull it off with one less SCV.
2) I wall off too, but I've only had my tech lab sniped in maybe 1 game out of 100? I don't really see it as a big risk. In any case, this is not a perfect build for every occasion, but the important thing is that for lower levels, you can do very well if you execute it properly. On the games where you lose, try to figure out where you went wrong. For me, it's usually because I didn't scout something (cloaked banshee rush) or didn't react properly AFTER my initial push (ie, not bunkering up if Protoss is still on one base). It's a learning tool and not a be-all end-all. But I still open 100% of my games with this.
3) You're probably right, but you would have to delay starting shields, otherwise I don't think you can hit 50 supply at 6:40. There is barely enough resources to fit in shells as soon as the 2nd tech lab finishes.
4) The factory makes a good scout Or you can use it to build an add-on for a second starport if you suspect lots of collosi, or want a raven. I'd save the gas for ghosts, personally.
|
On September 07 2011 08:17 Lazy8s wrote:
I am still struggling with this build. I wind up with 4 marauders and 1-3 marines at exactly 6:40 in my opponent's natural. The rest of my troops are on the way. I find that, more often than not, I am up against a force of the same size or larger. I hit 50 food at 6:40 or 6:41 usually. What am I missing? Am I supposed to wait for backup? Am I still too slow?
Edit: I could be wrong here but it seems like I am not "poking" right. I tried taking out a unit or two and not committing until some reinforcements arrive; this seems to be working better.
On September 07 2011 12:40 Tuplex wrote:
I got the impression that we move out at 6:40, where I normally have 6 marauders and 4 marines. Should we be arriving at the opponent's front door at 6:40 instead?
Don't push out until 6:40, you should arrive around 7:20 - 7:40.
|
On September 08 2011 00:42 cdd wrote:
first of all, a big thanks for this great guide! i'm fairly new to sc2 and rts games in general and after a little getting used to the game i immediately started going by your guide and i really like it so far.
i also have a few questions:
1) in your replay you don't send out a scouting scv and you reach 50+ food at exactly 6:40, is this even possible when sending out a scouting scv (especially on 4-player maps)? without scouting i can replicate your BO in the given time, but with scouting (after first SD finishes) it doesn't seem to be possible, i usually reach 50+ food (~52) between 6:50 and 7:00.
Someone confirmed this is still possible within a few seconds in an earlier reply.
On September 08 2011 00:42 cdd wrote:2) i really like to wall up my ramp with 2 SDs and the first rax (+addon) to be safer against cheeses like 6pool etc. and to deny late (16+) scouting, but unfortunately on a lot of spawning positions this exposes the techlab of my rax at the front of my wall and thereby gives my opponent the opportunity to snipe it and massively delay stim, which is disastrous for the build. would it maybe be better to use a slightly different 3rax variant with reactor first and techlabs on the 2nd and 3rd rax? it is also possible to build the raxes 2 and 3 much earlier (around 16/17 and around 19-20) so that stim and the 2nd upgrade are still done at around 7:00. this isn't my own idea btw, i borrowed it from Kaeru's (high EU masters) Terran beginner guide that uses such a reactor-first 3rax variant. what are your thoughts on this?
Zerg can't really snipe it with anything except a bane bust. I suppose if you want to go reactor first you should only make 2 rax. I was experimenting and was able to reach 52 food (still marauder heavy) at 6:30 with a 2 rax build. Shells come out a bit late but still in time for the push.
On September 08 2011 00:42 cdd wrote:
3) concerning the 2nd upgrade: i think shells is favorable vs protoss and combat shields vs terran, but i'm not sure what to choose vs zerg.
Shells is the only thing that finishes in time.
On September 08 2011 00:42 cdd wrote:
4) how do i transition out of this build vs protoss if the stim push doesn't outright win the game? i build a CC during the push and an engineering bay, a factory (reactor), a starport (swap onto factory's reactor) and an additional (naked) rax, i then go for MMM (+vikings if P has colossi) and later add ghosts, but what do i do with my factory? should i just put a techlab on and make tanks if i have spare min/gas or aren't tanks worth it against protoss and i shouldn't produce from it at all (which would free up gas for sooner ghosts)?
Do anything you would like after the push, all that matters is that you successfully met all your goals up to that point. Don't try to make a solid ladder build out of it. Once you are finished with the training start working with more advanced builds.
Vs Toss however a +1 followup with reactor starport is always safest. Ghost is risky but can pay off huge.
On September 07 2011 21:56 KenDM wrote:
@AdrenalineSeed: What do you think about the 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build?
Vs Toss on close positions or open natural (Xel Naga for example) It is a great build. I put the 3rd bunker at my natural and scout hard for proxy pylons. If natural is safe, fast expand vs toss is best.
|
Dear Adrenaline Seed, I'm really in a pickle right now. The 3Rax build really is the safest build out there, but for me it's not durable enough. I never make it out of the early game if I get hit hard enough, but with multiple bases I can put up a defense long enough to correct my mistakes. So I'm in this other thread where everybody sees the 3Rax build as an all in, and advises to do a 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build. So I'm split right now. They do say that pro's usually go for a fast expand and they even cut corners to get that second expand up. I'm sure I'll have a fall back when I'll try out the other builds, but it's a really attractive build.
Thread in question:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251694¤tpage=22#422
Just to make things clear: I'm not trying to start an unhealthy discussion or a war, I'm just confused and I need as much confirmation as I can get, mainly because I don't have mass amounts of time to game anymore.
|
|
|
On September 08 2011 20:47 KenDM wrote:Dear Adrenaline Seed, I'm really in a pickle right now. The 3Rax build really is the safest build out there, but for me it's not durable enough. I never make it out of the early game if I get hit hard enough, but with multiple bases I can put up a defense long enough to correct my mistakes. So I'm in this other thread where everybody sees the 3Rax build as an all in, and advises to do a 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build. So I'm split right now. They do say that pro's usually go for a fast expand and they even cut corners to get that second expand up. I'm sure I'll have a fall back when I'll try out the other builds, but it's a really attractive build. Thread in question: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251694¤tpage=22#422Just to make things clear: I'm not trying to start an unhealthy discussion or a war, I'm just confused and I need as much confirmation as I can get, mainly because I don't have mass amounts of time to game anymore.
3 Racks is a terrible build for high level play. Diamond +
They call it an "All-In" because your are not getting any tech or upgrades and not expanding for the first 7 minutes. Anyone who hopes to win with a mid game strategy would never open like that.
There are a few modifications used by pros such as Marine King Prime, but mostly I would not recommend using it. 2Rax FE is good vs Toss yes. Don't try to make a solid high level play build out of 3 racks though.
|
You were very close, this is really good overall. It was just 2 mistakes in unit production (kind of long mistakes too). You were not producing out of your rax from 4:00 - 4:20 and you had plenty of income to afford it. Same thing at 6:00 - 6:20.
|
I main Zerg, but I'm switching to Terran and this looks like a great way to start. In a broad way, I'd say the best way to do something like this as a Zerg would be 11 pool 18 hatch into a Spanishiwa (Ice Fisher) style.
10 Extractor Trick
11 Spawning Pool
10 Overlord
@100% > Queen (1) + Zerglings (2) (4)
18 Hatchery (2)
18 Overlord (2)
20 Spine Crawler (1-5), as opponent's army size increases
40 (32 Drones) Extractor (1) (2) (3) (4)
As Gas allows:
@100 gas, Lair + Evolution chambers (1) (2)
With your initial set of zerglings, one goes to the watchtower, the other to the bottom of his ramp. Make sure you're scouting with the ramp ling every 30-60 seconds. If it dies, run your other ling up to the ramp immediately and produce another pair that you send to the watchtower.
Your initial overlord should be parked outside his base to scout for tech. You want to aim for the center of his base, as most folks won't hide their tech on the edges for fear of overlord spotting. A great way to make sure your ovie gets a look instead of getting shot down is to make a small attack with 10 or so lings. That'll keep the focus at the wall. You want to be in his base at about 35 food, so you might have to start your overlord moving from the edge of his base as early as 30 food.
CONSTANTLY produce queens until lair tech is out. You need ONE creep tumor connecting the main and natural expo. WIth transfuse, queens are amazing defensive units paired with spine crawlers. Make sure you have 1 queen in the main injecting, 1 at the natural injecting, and all the rest at the front with the spines (or, if you suspect a hellion / zergling runby) blocking your ramp. You can use evo chambers to help fill the gaps and give less surface area at the front of the spines for melee attackers.
I could go on about the transitions from Ice Fisher all day, but there's already plenty of replays and whatnot over at
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ice_Fisher
and
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017
|
A lot of folks are missing the point here. This is training for LOW ranking players who need to learn how to properly do a build order and keep everything under control at once. It's not for winning all your games.
I would suggest that when you push at 6:40, the only thing you rally/send for reinforcement (unless you know you're about to win) is whatever units you were slightly behind on getting to 50/51 supply. After that 50/51 supply worth of units is heading to the opponent's base, build an expansion in your base and expand.
When you get to the opponent's base with your 50supply force, you need to check and see what he has. Save a scan for assaulting the ramp/scanning. If he already has an expansion down, burn it down with stim and contain if possible. If he pushes you with an even sized force or a bigger force that you can't defeat, go back home and macro up. You are now OUT OF THE REALM OF THIS PRACTICE BUILD. What you do next is up to you. All the standard rules of starcraft apply. Scout, counter, expand etc...
This build will win a lot of matches through silver and even against golds. It's like AS said, if you get to the base and he doesn't have the right counter, you can usually win right there. Otherwise you need to get ready for the macro game.
|
As a bronze leaguer I really am enjoying this challenge. I won TONS of games via laddering with this and now I am playing gold leaguers. Even though I don't hit the timing at 6:40 all the time, it is helping dramatically.
Playing this has helped me get my internal timing for a build down, and I want to work on it to the Phase 2/3 parts to ramp up my game immensely.
P.S. Yabot works wonders with this coach build, especially if you quit if ANYTHING isn't producing for more than a few seconds. Helps a lot for the pattern to build too.
|
Masters terran.
Despite many players' misgivings about the 3-rax build, it is actually a reasonable build to learn and execute at low-levels because it teaches solid macro. I've even thought about suggesting it to struggling players.
In addition, P2 and P3 are very very good exercises. I'm masters but I'm pretty sure that I won't be able to do them (at least not until I practice it). However, this is what pro-gamers do all the time, so they are a very valuable learning tool.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
