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What is it? Specialized Terran training program for Silver – Plat
What does it cost? Nothing, community supported
How does it work? Using the provided replays you practice Phase 1 and Phase 2 until you are proficient, this should not take a lot of time, for some can be done in one night. A practice partner will be needed for Phase 3, please see below for people willing to help, grab a friend, or contact me.
I did not read the entire post but I want to learn what should I do? Read the entire post
I feel this is a promising way to educate mid to low level struggling Terrans in the most efficient way possible.
With that said I would like to add that I am not a professional coach or even a pro player. I am a high diamond Terran and play against masters on ladder almost every game. My ID is Kinetic.661 on the NA server.
Important: Please work on learning the build (Phase #1) and The Watchtower (Phase #2) on your own using the replays for reference. Once you think you have the build and the watchtower down contact either myself or someone from the list below to put all your skills to the test in Phase 3.
If you are having problems understanding anything you can post questions here, catch me on b.net or PM me.
Players willing to help with Phase 3 listed below. If you would like to add your name to the list please post your ID and server.
AM Server
Xanthyz.264
cLvzickoray.848
Merlin.787
Fallians.904
Dice.179
BlueInk.418
Nemasyst.598
Imperfect.459
Ubeta.567
Banchan.483
Kreatur.607
ZaeZ.131
Sightbain.374
BrisklyGrape.397
PinoyfuryZ.411
EU Server
AlekS.933
WraithIV.252
Sokep.758
The story behind this.
+ Show Spoiler +
While doing some friendly (non-professional) coaching I was thinking about the most efficient way to teach a mid to lower level player how to play at high level. Not just how to quickly win more ladder games but how to learn the skills needed to play at a high level once they get promoted.
I came up with a simple architecture for teaching Terran and tested it out. It worked very well, beyond even my expectations.
Now there is no secret here, I am going to cover exactly what the 3 phases are. And only the 3rd phase requires a practice partner.
What others are saying
+ Show Spoiler +
Replies from other members
"This is pure grandmaster."
"This is really what I need right now."
"Really awesome program."
"i LOVE it"
"this training is incredible!!"
"Can't wait to try it on ladders!"
"This is like exactly what I've been looking for"
"I love the work put in here."
"Helps me heaps and Im sure helps others too."
"I've won my last 14 games in a row"
"rank 1:D"
"Rank 1"
The Program
Phase 1. Discipline.
+ Show Spoiler +Let’s make sure you have a simple build order and can perform it well. We start out with a simple and effective build order. 3 Racks. Why? We are not working on micro or cute play right now and we want a build that makes use of only 1 category of unit producing structures; the Barracks. This is also a build that ensures you have a strong meaty and simple army through the start of the game. This allows you to concentrate on what is important, macro and discipline. You should have 50+ food at 6:40 game time with stim done with conc finishing up. In order for this to be possible your build needs to be executed very well. For some this is common knowledge already and others may be surprised to know that you can meet such a short time frame. See the replay at the bottom for reference. From here on out if you miss an SCV production cycle you should start over on all exercises. Other mistakes are acceptable. I am extra strict here because this is the best time to engrain the automaticity of SCV production in your mind. Most will start out with some excessive queuing to deal with this and over a bit of time the queuing is reduced, this is much better than starting from the other end. Here is the build order by food count + Show Spoiler +
10-Supply
12-Rax
13-Refinery
15-Orbital
15-Marine
16-Supply
16-Tech Lab
18-Marauder Repeat When complete
21-Stim
21-Rax
24-Supply
27-Rax
28-Supply
28-Reactor
32-Supply
35-Tech Lab
35-Double Marine Repeat When complete
38-Supply
38-Shells
38-Maurader Repeat When complete
46-Supply
Phase 2. Leaving your comfort zone.
+ Show Spoiler +
After you have done some ladder games with your 3 Racks build and can perform well under pressure it is time for the 2nd and most educational session.
Tip: Watch the replay first from POV! Spend as little time in your base as possible to prepare for Phase 3.
Here you perform the same build as before with a twist. You must move your first marine out to the watch tower. Your camera must stay focused on the marine at the watch tower at all times except the following.
To build something
To drop a mule
To hotkey a new building or add-on
Many players, even experienced, reveal a lot more about their play than expected here. You will be shocked at how much you rely on locality in order to perform your build. The purpose of this exercise is to train your mind to track events in a way that is more efficient for RTS games. You must keep track of your supply, your resources, and what you should be doing based on what you just did (known as brain chains). These are fundamental skills you will need for proper execution of the following. We will also put them to the test in phase 3.
Scouting
Dealing with harass or dealing harass
Attacking / Defending
Working with multiple bases
Phase 3. Exercises and Minimap awareness.
+ Show Spoiler +We start with a scouting exercise. Here you play against a Protoss that makes only a single zelot. You must move an scv to scout and it must stay in your opponents base (Xel Naga) for the entire build (can't go back down the ramp). The zelot will chase it with micro, so it will require constant active control. Remember the marine at the watch tower and your simply adding constant clicking to the exercise. Mechanics get refined here. I also ask after every game a few questions about the Protoss energy usage, gas timing, etc. Note for those volunteering to play the role of Protoss here. + Show Spoiler +
You should micro your Zelot but not excessively, try to account for the current skill level of the player. If this is their first time attempting it only micro half the time. If they are getting very good then try to push their limits by controlling the Zelot almost 100% of the time.
Also vary your build, build pylons outside your base, get them counting pylons, and gas, use your energy differently.
There is one very important concept that has not been covered until now. Minimap awareness. Here you play against a Terran and you move your first marine out to the furthest watchtower. This time you can keep your camera in your base. The Terran opponent will periodically move a group of marines out to attack your watch tower marine. You must run away and keep him alive and immediately return to the watch tower. The Terran opponent will never remain at the watch tower and will always retreat after you run. After the training is complete I recommend practicing the marine at the watch tower (Phase 2) once each time you log in to ladder for awhile. Some players will stick with 3 racks for awhile and then learn some new builds found on these forums. Other will may get bored of 3 racks more quickly. I do recommend playing with 3 racks until you feel your macro and mechanics are solid however the skills learned here will be vital to working with a more complex build. I do not teach builds, there is plenty of information here on the forums. I hope everyone was able to get something out of this post including some Terran coaches. Thank you for reading and GL HF on your SC2 career!
Please post your info if you are willing to help others with Phase 3, thanks!
I am also looking for a Zerg and a Protoss example. If you think you have a good starter build that will work well with the watchtower exercise please provide a replay equivalent to the watchtower replay found here but with your race. This would be greatly appreciated!
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Tips
+ Show Spoiler +-Determine where your buildings will go from the start of the game. This will free your mind. -Optimal queuing is right before a unit finishes, not after. -Quality APM comes from confidence, don't second guess yourself as you execute an action. -Don't forget UPGRADES (Stim / Conc)! Forgetting upgrades in any build will be detrimental. -You should be familiar with the game mechanics and units before attempting this. If you just bought the game; bookmark this and come back in a month. How to use 3 Racks on Silver - Gold LadderPush at 6:40 with 50+ food. Try not to use more than one Stim, make it count. vs Zerg keep your Mauraders in front (this is good vs banes, lings, and crawlers) vs Terran send one marine up ramp to check for siege/bunker or double bunker. vs Protoss pre-stim up ramp then attack (this is careless in diamond play but should get most units past FF before they notice) 3 Racks on Plat LadderPush at 6:40 with 50+ food Stop enough production to put down an expo as you push Deny expo, scout ramp and go home if needed Double the build into 6 Rax or go into tech and have fun Keep in mind it does not matter if you win or lose a match. What matters is if you executed the build and did not miss an scv. This is a Win in my book at this stage! Looking for the next step? Surviving DiamondAlso Why Zombies Win at Starcraft
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Wow, that actually sounds like a really well thought out, efficient program. I'm a plat Terran myself and it sounds really, really good and it sounds like it'd really help.
What hours would you be available for these sessions? I'd like to participate, but I want to make sure our schedules can work out and whatnot.
Regardless, I think I'm going to be incorporating this type of training into solo practice, to the best of my ability. It sounds really effective.
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I am very often logged in after 5:30pm Pacific on weeknights. Also throughout the day / night on most weekends.
I have 2 more slots.
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I added a replay of the 3 Racks build used in the training for those I am not able to work with right now. More replays coming soon.
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I would be very interested in participating in these excercises. I'm currently a plat Protoss, but I'm about a gold Terran.
wolffman.500 message me!
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I added the Marine at the Watchtower replay. Watch replay from POV.
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HenryGale.974 Very interested!
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Emerald. 762 interested in lessons
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MaD.616 awesome idea, great chance to give back to the community
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I'm a zerg player, and i wouldnt be able to make the times posted anyways, but if you could upload a replay of one of your coaching sessions, that would be greatly appreciated. I think that your style of coaching is great and will be very effective, and I would like to incorporate what you are doing into my own practice, but would like to see it in actions first.
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I am willing to act as a practice partner for games and lessons if needed.
Sightbain.374
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On July 24 2011 14:57 Sightbain wrote:
I am willing to act as a practice partner for games and lessons if needed.
Sightbain.374
Thanks!! I added your info to the main post for help. Anyone else available to help with Phase 3 please post.
On July 24 2011 13:36 Karellen wrote:
I'm a zerg player, and i wouldnt be able to make the times posted anyways, but if you could upload a replay of one of your coaching sessions, that would be greatly appreciated. I think that your style of coaching is great and will be very effective, and I would like to incorporate what you are doing into my own practice, but would like to see it in actions first.
I will be posting a replay of Phase 3 soon, I have a few promising players who are already doing very well and hope to get an outstanding example of the scout exercise before posting.
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United States5080 Posts
If you need any practice partners for your coaching, I am a high diamond Protoss. BrisklyGrape.397. Feel free to PM me in-game or here on TL if you need anything 
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Way to accelerate learning for silver to plat
1/ good build - many build out there on TL forum but 1 build is insanely effective and can give all thE silver and plat player an incrediBle winning streak. I'm using 1 right now and so far 20 win streaks,lose 1 due to smart burrow banneling, then win another 10 gAme streak. Before this build, my record is very decent 50/50.
My currenT build involve 3 reapers and 4rax(3teCh 1 reactors), use 3 reapers to destroy mineral line and force other guy to all in , crush that all in with defensive stim marines marauder. Sometimes huge contain into expand.
2/ macro - people fail at this including me. When u mess up 1 thing , you feel uneasy, give othEr guy advantage. Think ahead. Like me. At 9/11, scv to ramp. At 10/11, supply. When move out have 3-4 supply depot build. Queue all unit before move in and attack. You can't macro And micro at the same time( normal ppl , not hardcore or pro) so after u finish micro, go to ur base and macro like a mad men.if u did build 3 or 4 and queue ton of unit before micro, u will have less mineral in banl less macro to do after micro.
Think ahead is the key. Suprise is your worst nightmare. U will be less suprisE once u gain more experience fRom playing many games.
3/eXperiEnce- saDly only gain through meet a creative player that is bad at macro ( mass bansheen voidray, battlecruiser, hidden expand) or pro play
4/ scout- partly belong to expeerience but timing scout is something I don't know down to the core so can't really write anything.
5/ reaction - partly bElong to scout and exp. If zerg see hellion opener, 2 crawler,queen block ramp, all worker to Main,drone like a mad man, put down roach warren. Those are bEst reaction for hellion opener , not making a million of zergling and do a micro war with oTher guy.
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On July 25 2011 10:01 cuoongwhomy wrote:
Way to accelerate learning for silver to plat
1/ good build - many build out there on TL forum but 1 build is insanely effective and can give all thE silver and plat player an incrediBle winning streak. I'm using 1 right now and so far 20 win streaks,lose 1 due to smart burrow banneling, then win another 10 gAme streak. Before this build, my record is very decent 50/50.
My currenT build involve 3 reapers and 4rax(3teCh 1 reactors), use 3 reapers to destroy mineral line and force other guy to all in , crush that all in with defensive stim marines marauder. Sometimes huge contain into expand.
2/ macro - people fail at this including me. When u mess up 1 thing , you feel uneasy, give othEr guy advantage. Think ahead. Like me. At 9/11, scv to ramp. At 10/11, supply. When move out have 3-4 supply depot build. Queue all unit before move in and attack. You can't macro And micro at the same time( normal ppl , not hardcore or pro) so after u finish micro, go to ur base and macro like a mad men.if u did build 3 or 4 and queue ton of unit before micro, u will have less mineral in banl less macro to do after micro.
Think ahead is the key. Suprise is your worst nightmare. U will be less suprisE once u gain more experience fRom playing many games.
3/eXperiEnce- saDly only gain through meet a creative player that is bad at macro ( mass bansheen voidray, battlecruiser, hidden expand) or pro play
4/ scout- partly belong to expeerience but timing scout is something I don't know down to the core so can't really write anything.
5/ reaction - partly bElong to scout and exp. If zerg see hellion opener, 2 crawler,queen block ramp, all worker to Main,drone like a mad man, put down roach warren. Those are bEst reaction for hellion opener , not making a million of zergling and do a micro war with oTher guy.
With all due respect I don't think this is correct. This is how you hit the wall. The wall everyone hit when I showed them 3 Racks and they enjoyed a bunch of wins only to find that they did not know how to play at a higher level. You can micro and macro at the same time and this is how you learn to do so. Thanks for your input though.
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I was gonna say 'this is pure gold,' but to an sc2 player that would sound like an insult.
This is pure grandmaster.
One of the crucial things about this program that a newer player might overlook is the difference between becoming a better player and becoming better at laddering. If you become a better player, you will most likely be better at laddering. But becoming better at ladder doesn't necessarily make you a better player. If you want to be Diamond or Masters, there are much easier and faster ways. But, if you care about about your skill level and not necessarily your ladder ranking, this program is perfect for you.
This program forces the player to quickly improve general mechanics while simultaneously ingraining fundamental skills and concepts that will form an incredible foundation - both mechanical and informational - for the player's starcraft2 future. Many diamond and some low masters player's struggle with things like actively and continuously scouting, macroing and microing at the same time, constant minimap awareness, etc.
This program could easily be altered and extended to create a training program for a player of any skill level, even a grandmaster, and I also believe that the core aspects of the program - practicing a specific build until your macro is extremely tight and all your timings are crisp, actively trying to improve minimap awareness, working on scouting (during all phases of the game), practicing the ability to macro while also actively microing units - an absolutely essential skill, and very closely related to the cognitive skill-set required for gosu multi-prong drop harass and army engagements with multiple formations and flanks.
anyone who practices these exercises diligently and masters them will develop a very solid mechanical foundation and will have the beginnings of what is sometimes called "great multitask" (although it isn't even actually similar to multitasking >.<)
OH, AND Adrenaline Seed, I'MMA LET YOU FINISH,
BUT cuooongwhomy HAD ONE OF THE WORST POSTS...
OF ALL TIMES. OF ALL TIMES.
(seriously, anyone who is new to the game, don't even read that post and if you have already read it, hit yourself hard enough in the head with a blunt object to cause concussive brain trauma so you get short term memory loss and forget that the post even exists)
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On July 25 2011 14:02 somadbro wrote:
I was gonna say 'this is pure gold,' but to an sc2 player that would sound like an insult.
This is pure grandmaster.
One of the crucial things about this program that a newer player might overlook is the difference between becoming a better player and becoming better at laddering. If you become a better player, you will most likely be better at laddering. But becoming better at ladder doesn't necessarily make you a better player. If you want to be Diamond or Masters, there are much easier and faster ways. But, if you care about about your skill level and not necessarily your ladder ranking, this program is perfect for you.
This program forces the player to quickly improve general mechanics while simultaneously ingraining fundamental skills and concepts that will form an incredible foundation - both mechanical and informational - for the player's starcraft2 future. Many diamond and some low masters player's struggle with things like actively and continuously scouting, macroing and microing at the same time, constant minimap awareness, etc.
This program could easily be altered and extended to create a training program for a player of any skill level, even a grandmaster, and I also believe that the core aspects of the program - practicing a specific build until your macro is extremely tight and all your timings are crisp, actively trying to improve minimap awareness, working on scouting (during all phases of the game), practicing the ability to macro while also actively microing units - an absolutely essential skill, and very closely related to the cognitive skill-set required for gosu multi-prong drop harass and army engagements with multiple formations and flanks.
anyone who practices these exercises diligently and masters them will develop a very solid mechanical foundation and will have the beginnings of what is sometimes called "great multitask" (although it isn't even actually similar to multitasking >.<)
Thanks, great overview of the concept. It is much more rewarding to have a diamond or masters title when you can also play like one.
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Great ideas here. I know there is a multitasking trainer already for keeping your scv alive while doing a build. I don't have much knowledge of map making but if someone does it would be awesome to have a map that implements the "keeping marine at watch tower alive when someone periodically attacks it" concept.
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Adrenaline Seed. I am interested in both lessons and helping out with practice. I live in PST time also but I do not get off work until 6. I want to get back to learning fundamentals because I feel like I am lacking them.
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Im interested in both lessons and helping also. I'm home from work @ 4 (eastern time) and have Tuesdays/Weds off. I'll PM you with my accounts.
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I could see where this would come in handy. I’m brand new to RTS games. I’m ranked Gold, but if I’m to be honest I’m probably more of a Platinum Player, but I very rarely ladder, because I’m typically too busy practicing mechanics. I’ve been doing YABOT and similar practicing for probably a year now. I’ve increased my APM from what was 20 to 80-90 and can usually execute my build order to a T. Sometimes I mess up, but not often.
And I can tell you that my weakest areas (probably because of the way I trained) are constantly watching the minimap, poor scouting, my 3rd expansion isn’t early enough, map control and having the ability to always have my camera on the map rather than my base. For whatever reasons I have a very difficult time constantly roaming around the map maintain vision and being able to switch back to the base to build. That transition part and feeling comfortable doing it is where I lack. I think that’s what keeps me from excelling to that diamond level.
I’m absolutely interested in learning the game and being able to analyze what’s going on versus having some preplanned build order that is going to allow me to win 70% of the time, because when you end up in the 30% you don’t know what to do based on what you are seeing.
I’m definitely going to try this…especially phase 2. Thanks for the write up!
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On July 26 2011 02:22 PinoyfuryZ wrote:
Adrenaline Seed. I am interested in both lessons and helping out with practice. I live in PST time also but I do not get off work until 6. I want to get back to learning fundamentals because I feel like I am lacking them.
Great! Post you B.net info if you would like me to add it to the OP.
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I am definitely interested in lessons. I would really like to improve my game play.
TopRamen
Character Code: 279
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If still available, I would appreciate a lesson. Thank you for investing your time in to a free efficent coaching style for us to learn from, before even speaking to you.
Zimmy.107
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This is actually very very helpful. Thank you v much for this. I'm gonna log on and try it out right now.
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This looks quite interesting, although I play protoss. I think I will try do this concept with a 4 gate or 3 gate robo and see if I can't upload some replays for you guys :D. This looks like an exciting project.
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This is really what I need right now. I have added you to my friends and hope that you can help me out! Would like to get started on this asap if that is possible.
Again, what an awesome opportunity, I'm glad there are people like you who like to help others.
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On July 28 2011 01:13 delta9r9r wrote:
This looks quite interesting, although I play protoss. I think I will try do this concept with a 4 gate or 3 gate robo and see if I can't upload some replays for you guys :D. This looks like an exciting project.
Those sound like good builds for a Protoss to use with this exercise. Perhaps a 4 gate to keep things simple. First zelot moves to watchtower? Or a probe after you have populated gas if that does not fit. No pylons at the watchtower!
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I'm interested. Even though my profile says diamond I play random and my terran is gold/plat level.
Superjac
code: 879
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I'm more than willing to help as the protoss player, or practice all this with other players (maybe have practice 1v1's where we both just watch the watchtower type thing and see howe we both do. etc
I'm a high gold player (probably plat level skill) but need serious refining of my mechanics (I still hotkey all my units on one hotkey and put my nexus on 1 :S)
ZaeZ.131
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Very intereting program!
I'd like to participate if possible, I'm a random player and T is by far my worst race.
Auross.127
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On July 28 2011 10:16 ZaeZSC wrote:
I'm a high gold player (probably plat level skill) but need serious refining of my mechanics (I still hotkey all my units on one hotkey and put my nexus on 1 :S)
ZaeZ.131
Multiple army/production control groups is not something I stress on very much. I am not saying it is not helpful when you are at masters level. However for most it can be too much of a distraction. You can perform very well with less hotkeys, download some reps of MMA's TvZ style where he uses 1 for all units (until he gets ghosts) as an example.
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I am a masters toss trying to learn terran and this really helps a lot. I am somewhat tempted to skip phase 1 though >.<
Banchan #483 AM server if anyone wants to give me some help
I am also willing to be a practice partner for phase 3
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On July 29 2011 04:16 Banchan wrote:
I am a masters toss trying to learn terran and this really helps a lot. I am somewhat tempted to skip phase 1 though >.<
Banchan #483 AM server if anyone wants to give me some help
I am also willing to be a practice partner for phase 3
I would suggest if you are masters to use your standard go-to build with Phase 2 and Phase 3 instead of 3rax. Don't be surprised if it's harder than it looks though.
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I can help with the minimap awareness test in phase 3.
Ubeta.567
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On July 29 2011 07:21 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 04:16 Banchan wrote:
I am a masters toss trying to learn terran and this really helps a lot. I am somewhat tempted to skip phase 1 though >.<
Banchan #483 AM server if anyone wants to give me some help
I am also willing to be a practice partner for phase 3 I would suggest if you are masters to use your standard go-to build with Phase 2 and Phase 3 instead of 3rax. Don't be surprised if it's harder than it looks though.
haha I am fully expecting it to be hard (or rather, i already tried once and failed). Protoss doesn't really have rallies or worker management so I need to work on that.
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i can help with phase 3.
Imperfect.459 NA
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On July 29 2011 08:09 Banchan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 07:21 Adrenaline Seed wrote:On July 29 2011 04:16 Banchan wrote:
I am a masters toss trying to learn terran and this really helps a lot. I am somewhat tempted to skip phase 1 though >.<
Banchan #483 AM server if anyone wants to give me some help
I am also willing to be a practice partner for phase 3 I would suggest if you are masters to use your standard go-to build with Phase 2 and Phase 3 instead of 3rax. Don't be surprised if it's harder than it looks though. haha I am fully expecting it to be hard (or rather, i already tried once and failed). Protoss doesn't really have rallies or worker management so I need to work on that.
I am not sure how toss players exactly manage warping in units. But I would guess it is more often clicking near a pylon on the minimap than using camera positions or going all the way back to their base. This might be the best way to do it for practice.
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Disgruntled Zerg here, wanting to become proficient at Terran and play a race that I feel is a little more well-rounded and flexible. I play at a diamond level as Z in 1v1, and probably silver/gold as T. I'm on every other evening or so in the PST timezone.
ATMA.214
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Hm, on phase 1 I've consistently been able to get 50 food with stim finishing exactly at 6:40, but my conc shells are a bit behind where yours where and I'm obviously missing the two food you had. Good enough to move on or should I just continue until I get it identical to the replay?
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It's interesting cause I've been using a similar program on myself with Z. I find the speedling expand build works well for this just because of the oppurtunities to learn precision. I do 15 gas 14 pool 16 OL immediate queen and one ling. Pull off gas @ exactly 100 expand as soon as possible. First stage for me was learning to time the 2nd queen and drone transfers right. Then figure out exactly how long it took me to get perfectly saturated and identify saturation against a very easy AI. Then a chain of gas expenditure, whatever works for you (for me its bane nest, lair, +1, muta at least in the exercise). Second stage is the same exact thing except that first ling has to go to the watchtowers and the camera goes on the ling. Stage three has been the multitasking tester where you do your build while running a probe from a ling. Good guide!
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On August 05 2011 05:32 BarryWhite wrote:
Hm, on phase 1 I've consistently been able to get 50 food with stim finishing exactly at 6:40, but my conc shells are a bit behind where yours where and I'm obviously missing the two food you had. Good enough to move on or should I just continue until I get it identical to the replay?
Def good enough to start trying Phase 2. Sounds like you are putting in good effort though! I start conc as soon as second tech lab is finished. Requires very crisp supply depot timing and careful queuing to afford everything.
On August 05 2011 05:45 BadWolf0 wrote:
It's interesting cause I've been using a similar program on myself with Z. I find the speedling expand build works well for this just because of the oppurtunities to learn precision. I do 15 gas 14 pool 16 OL immediate queen and one ling. Pull off gas @ exactly 100 expand as soon as possible. First stage for me was learning to time the 2nd queen and drone transfers right. Then figure out exactly how long it took me to get perfectly saturated and identify saturation against a very easy AI. Then a chain of gas expenditure, whatever works for you (for me its bane nest, lair, +1, muta at least in the exercise). Second stage is the same exact thing except that first ling has to go to the watchtowers and the camera goes on the ling. Stage three has been the multitasking tester where you do your build while running a probe from a ling. Good guide!
Any chance we can get your best replay of Phase 2 and/or 3 up on here? It would be great to open up the training to more races. If you post them I will add them to the OP.
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RTyYuf. 946 race: random
Interested in learning TvT only. I can macro and multitask at Masters level but my play is very unrefined and I basically make up all my builds. I really need insight on how to handle the TvT matchup because it is my weakest.
Idk if this is the right place to find that kind of help but I would appreciate it nontheless. Thanks.
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How you play TvT is defined a lot of the time by what units you get. If you focus on siege tanks it's all about positioning, knowing when it's safe to unsiege and move forward and where the good tank positions are. If you go for bio with medivacs you have mobility and need to take advantage of it, you need to drop to keep him at his base so he can't be really aggressive with his tanks.
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On August 05 2011 06:49 fighter2_40 wrote:
RTyYuf. 946 race: random
Interested in learning TvT only. I can macro and multitask at Masters level but my play is very unrefined and I basically make up all my builds. I really need insight on how to handle the TvT matchup because it is my weakest.
Idk if this is the right place to find that kind of help but I would appreciate it nontheless. Thanks.
I don't think this is the right place, but if your masters level on mechanics add me up and we can practice. I enjoy TvT strategies, it keeps evolving and seems to remain very strategical no matter the change in units.
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Really awesome program. Been playing some SC2 on and off for a while but unable to really get it going smoothly. This looks like it will give me a great jumpstart.
Currently trying to squeeze out the last few supplies right when stim is finished. Can't seem to get more than 48 supply by the time stim finishes at 6:40. The last few are always ~7 seconds late.
I'll post again later on to give a better view on how it went. Thanks!
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wow the discipline is just awesome
i LOVE it :D
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On August 06 2011 05:18 Ammoth wrote:
Really awesome program. Been playing some SC2 on and off for a while but unable to really get it going smoothly. This looks like it will give me a great jumpstart.
Currently trying to squeeze out the last few supplies right when stim is finished. Can't seem to get more than 48 supply by the time stim finishes at 6:40. The last few are always ~7 seconds late.
I'll post again later on to give a better view on how it went. Thanks!
48 is not bad. You can do 51 though.
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EU server: Sokep 758
Im looking for a partner to do this stuff, we can help each other ¡¡
@ OP: Would be interesting to see a replay doing the 3rax but sending the scout scv and using a scan on the enemy's base, cause that changes the outcome 
Also, u r suposed to hit the enemy's base just when stim finishes, and in your replay that would mean to leave ur base with 4 marauders and 1 marine at 6:00. So either u leave the base with that or u delay the stim right?
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I was #1 silver as zerg season 1 and protoss season 2 (not much of an accomplishment). I decided to play terran season 3. Having never played them before, I instantly ranked silver on my placement game and i am already top 8 beating gold/plat players and i SUCK as terran...this training is incredible!! Even more astounding, I played some zerg/toss and i was better at them, too! Can't believe I got so much better in less than 10 games... My question is, when i finally hit with stim, am I expecting to do damage? Also, I have been following up with tanks but i want to do drop play, can you point me to a strat or player with good replays to watch? I have been watching MMA but he is so much better it is almost pointless to watch LOL.
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help. cant watch the replays!
any obvious reasons? thnx.
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On August 07 2011 09:30 Sokep wrote:EU server: Sokep 758 Im looking for a partner to do this stuff, we can help each other ¡¡ @ OP: Would be interesting to see a replay doing the 3rax but sending the scout scv and using a scan on the enemy's base, cause that changes the outcome Also, u r suposed to hit the enemy's base just when stim finishes, and in your replay that would mean to leave ur base with 4 marauders and 1 marine at 6:00. So either u leave the base with that or u delay the stim right?
Thanks I added an EU section.
You want to move out at 6:40 which means you will be attacking when conc finishes.
Sending a scout still allows you to perform the build the same, there might be a couple millisecond gaps in production due to the loss of one worker. I recommend sending the scout in every ladder match, you should be no more than 5 seconds behind on the build.
You will be coming up on 50 energy as you approach the base, don't mule and you can scan ramp. It is more efficient to mule and use a stim'd marine to check ramp but many new players spend too much time doing this while toss is warping in 4 more units, etc. Every second counts with any opening. Play around with both, experimentation is good when you know how to learn from it.
On August 07 2011 23:05 Lazy8s wrote:
My question is, when i finally hit with stim, am I expecting to do damage? Also, I have been following up with tanks but i want to do drop play, can you point me to a strat or player with good replays to watch? I have been watching MMA but he is so much better it is almost pointless to watch LOL.
Stim does 150% damage I recall. It also damages your units health, so without medivacs you don't want to use it too often. Mostly in order to get into a tactical position or when all your units are engaging for max damage, it pays off in folds if used properly. Press T FTW.
Before learning "drop play" (more than one drop at a time) you will want to get very proficient at mechanics.
On August 08 2011 17:00 jk-terran wrote:
help. cant watch the replays!
any obvious reasons? thnx.
I tested on another computer. No problems. Responded to your PM.
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Nemasyst.598
NA server
I can play Toss and Terran at Master level
I hope I can help some newbiez! :D
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Returning to competitive play after a brief hiatus. Trying to get away from cleverness (and turns of phrase like "The Art of Thor") to just focus on the basics and, as Day[9] puts it, be a better gamer.
BlueInk.418, NA
Looking forward to working with you!
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I actually went back to playing protoss and implemented this way of working with build orders and basic macro. And I have to say it's incredible, I usually outmacro my opponents down in silver like crazy.
Oh and I actually picked one build order for each matcup and tries to practice them all regularly in order to have an easier time on ladder since one build order is hard to get to working in all matchups, so it's a little slower on the timings but I get all the more macro practice with tapping and building probes & pylons.
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On August 10 2011 21:47 Ammoth wrote:
I actually went back to playing protoss and implemented this way of working with build orders and basic macro. And I have to say it's incredible, I usually outmacro my opponents down in silver like crazy.
Oh and I actually picked one build order for each matcup and tries to practice them all regularly in order to have an easier time on ladder since one build order is hard to get to working in all matchups, so it's a little slower on the timings but I get all the more macro practice with tapping and building probes & pylons.
Silver league might be a little early to have multiple builds but it is more advantageous to have a build for each match-up as long as you don't forget the essentials and get too caught up in builds.
People blame a loss on their build more often than the 5 minutes they forgot to build workers.
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Can I join? wTENnONE.842
What iS the build order and when do I expand?
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On August 11 2011 06:56 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 21:47 Ammoth wrote:
I actually went back to playing protoss and implemented this way of working with build orders and basic macro. And I have to say it's incredible, I usually outmacro my opponents down in silver like crazy.
Oh and I actually picked one build order for each matcup and tries to practice them all regularly in order to have an easier time on ladder since one build order is hard to get to working in all matchups, so it's a little slower on the timings but I get all the more macro practice with tapping and building probes & pylons. Silver league might be a little early to have multiple builds but it is more advantageous to have a build for each match-up as long as you don't forget the essentials and get too caught up in builds. People blame a loss on their build more often than the 5 minutes they forgot to build workers.
Ofcourse the builds arn't as flawless as they could be but they are quite similar. 2 gate with a fast robo vs terran and 3 gate sentry expand vs zerg. Vs protoss i usually 4 gate since I really don't know what other openers there are in PvP that works properly.
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On August 11 2011 10:23 wTENnONE wrote:
Can I join? wTENnONE.842
What iS the build order and when do I expand?
There is a couple replays with the build and some info on expanding in the tips.
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Okay. I do want to try this. But i do not have a lot of time to play so i'm to lazy to figure out the build order from the replay. Did someonelse do this? Can you please post it?
\thanks in advance.
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Just tried that for almost an hour... Wow, I love this build.
Can't wait to try it on ladders! 
So to those who are newb, like me, (I'm a Bronze Leaguer), just feel free to add me so we can disscuss and stuff like that, I'm not playing as often as I would like because of life obligations (work, girlfriend, etc.) but I'm trying to be a better SC2 player because I just love this game.
So, feel free to add UncleCarlos.549 (No, I'm not mexican haha )
@Adrenaline Seed: Thanks a BUNCH for this build! (y)
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On August 13 2011 08:30 DCSemi wrote:
@Adrenaline Seed: Thanks a BUNCH for this build! (y)
Oh I can't take credit for the build. It is from way back in Beta, simple and strong throughout with a great timing attack. I think I learned it or a variation of it watching Trump in the beta days, and I think it originally came from some pro-gamers within the first couple days of beta perhaps.
Anyways I chose it for the reasons described.
Good to hear your enjoying it though, every inexperienced player should know about this build or they will be overly frustrated with the game.
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On August 13 2011 06:23 davidk wrote:
Okay. I do want to try this. But i do not have a lot of time to play so i'm to lazy to figure out the build order from the replay. Did someonelse do this? Can you please post it?
\thanks in advance.
I posted the build order by food under Phase 1 in the OP.
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This sounds great, does anyone know if there is something similar for protoss? I'm a low level toss, and I really don't know what the best way to improve is, besides playing more games.
~kcaZ
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Hi, First off, thank you. I've been a very frustrated gold player for a while now, my mechanics have been sorely lacking and this is just what I need to improve. I have now completed step two against AI with no problem (I can hit 50 supply watching only the marine on the watch tower by 6:40) I would really like to practice the exercises in step three. I'm on the Australia, New Zealand and SE Asia Server. Flukeovski 270. If there is any one out there that I can reciprocally practice with that'd be appreciated. Otherwise I can spend some time on the NA server, just not sure how time zones will match up.
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On August 13 2011 09:34 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 06:23 davidk wrote:
Okay. I do want to try this. But i do not have a lot of time to play so i'm to lazy to figure out the build order from the replay. Did someonelse do this? Can you please post it?
\thanks in advance. I posted the build order by food under Phase 1 in the OP.
Damn. I really looked over it. Sorry dude. Gonna practice with it right away :D
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On August 13 2011 14:27 davidk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 09:34 Adrenaline Seed wrote:On August 13 2011 06:23 davidk wrote:
Okay. I do want to try this. But i do not have a lot of time to play so i'm to lazy to figure out the build order from the replay. Did someonelse do this? Can you please post it?
\thanks in advance. I posted the build order by food under Phase 1 in the OP. Damn. I really looked over it. Sorry dude. Gonna practice with it right away :D
Nah, I mean I posted it in response to your request, it was not there before.
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This is like exactly what I've been looking for... the biggest difference in my play and any pro game I watch is how fast and freely they move all over the map with their screen. I tend to find myself hovering over my base a lot more than I'd like too or on top of my army. This also seems to create a sense of panic whenever something happens because I usually have to readjust to get there before I can even react to it.
Thanks for this excellent idea!
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Loving this, had a go last night, I'm currently top 8 Silver with consistent wins against gold players, so hoping to get moved up soonish. So far I've only done phase 1 as I only do pure bio against protoss, and for that I normally do a 1 rax FE into 3 rax for fast econ, sometimes I change it up if I'm getting 4 gated or DT rushed.
I've basically learnt the build after messing around with it for a few games and I've got to a point where I'm sitting on roughly 49-51 food in most games with stim done and con shell half way complete at the 6:40 mark. I'm still trying to work out why I'm not always getting over 50+ food at 6:40, I think it has to do with my slight delays in supply depot timings, or the possible very tight money situation where I'm behind by like 5-10 minerals. Going to start phase 2 today, should be fun. I'm on the EU server though, I've got a couple of friends that are going to attempt this as well, really cool idea thanks man. I was trying to do this sort of thing on my own, but it's hard when your still learning the game and match ups, your not sure what to work on half the time.
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Would it be viable to put a Reactor on the 3rd Rax to pump 4x Marines at a time instead of a Marauders?
I was wondering that while practicing this build.
What are your thoughts on that??
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On August 14 2011 08:44 DCSemi wrote:
Would it be viable to put a Reactor on the 3rd Rax to pump 4x Marines at a time instead of a Marauders?
I was wondering that while practicing this build.
What are your thoughts on that??
You would need to pull a worker out of gas. It would not be good for a general 7 minute push. Marauders are good against bunkers, siege tanks, stalkers, zelots, banelings, and roaches. Perhaps for some other strategy.
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Why o why pulling the worker from getting gas? (im very noobish :p)
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This is kinda like something I just recently came up with. I am a bronze player myself and highly suggest this to other bronze players, play vs very easy ai on xel naga and try to constantly run a worker around the center of the map. No shift-queueing, no stops. And all the while execute your build. You'll be amazed how this speeds up your game.
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On August 15 2011 08:24 DCSemi wrote:
Why o why pulling the worker from getting gas? (im very noobish :p)
Otherwise you would get excess gas which you cant spend with only one techlab
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On July 23 2011 07:19 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
Here is the build order by food count
[spoiler]
10-Supply
12-Rax
13-Refinery
15-Orbital
15-Marine
16-Supply
16-Tech Lab
20-Marauder Repeat When complete <---
21-Stim
21-Rax
24-Supply
27-Rax
28-Supply
28-Reactor
32-Supply
35-Tech Lab
35-Double Marine Repeat When complete
38-Supply
38-Shells
38-Maurader Repeat When complete
46-Supply
In your replay you build your first Marauder @ 18 food.
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Hi - I love this. After zerging for seasons one and two I fancy a change of race and this was a really good series of exercises to get me ready for laddering, many thanks <3
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On August 16 2011 01:43 Unlogical wrote:
In your replay you build your first Marauder @ 18 food.
Thanks, fixed.
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Hey, nice idea and the coaching method intuitively sounds good. I'm a gold terran but I've played RTS games for like 16 years now (though mostly campaigns). I simply can't ever progress beyond a certain level, there are things that block me, including certain aspects of micro and macro that rely on coordination (I have a diagnosed problem with that) or multitasking. Around my peak time in TFT the guys I beat sometimes had four times my average APM (burst was more even, which is telling). According to my friend whom I actually taught to play (and he went on to play in top clans while I remained mid-skilled) and to my own observations, I was losing tons of games I shouldn't be, for strange reasons. It might be a good thing finally to fix these reasons after all these years of playing RTS. I'm inclined to think your set of exercises should be helpful in my case (though I can probably pull off #1 easily and would be tempted to skip to #3).
If I may chime in, I'd recommend that any new players (sort of like those guys you suggest come back in a month) wishing to improve to finish the Challenges first and get gold in all of them. As in, it doesn't make you gosu, but it's going to give you a grasp of things.
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On August 16 2011 05:10 NewbieOne wrote:
Hey, nice idea and the coaching method intuitively sounds good. I'm a gold terran but I've played RTS games for like 16 years now (though mostly campaigns). I simply can't ever progress beyond a certain level, there are things that block me, including certain aspects of micro and macro that rely on coordination (I have a diagnosed problem with that) or multitasking. Around my peak time in TFT the guys I beat sometimes had four times my average APM (burst was more even, which is telling). According to my friend whom I actually taught to play (and he went on to play in top clans while I remained mid-skilled) and to my own observations, I was losing tons of games I shouldn't be, for strange reasons. It might be a good thing finally to fix these reasons after all these years of playing RTS. I'm inclined to think your set of exercises should be helpful in my case (though I can probably pull off #1 easily and would be tempted to skip to #3).
If I may chime in, I'd recommend that any new players (sort of like those guys you suggest come back in a month) wishing to improve to finish the Challenges first and get gold in all of them. As in, it doesn't make you gosu, but it's going to give you a grasp of things.
I am finding more and more that mechanics is my primary bottleneck. The more confidence I have in performing a series of actions the more focus I have in the game.
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I have been practising for 5 hours today. But I am unsure of what to do after 6:40. Tried a few games vs Very Hard AI. Replay
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This sounds like a great training exercise that could be adapted to each race, as it primarily trains the user to execute a standard build crisply and cleanly throughout the early game without relying on the crutch of devoting complete concentration to said execution.
I love the work put in here. I'm just adapting myself to a new hotkey setup. I'll copy down the build order and have a look a the replays, and see how well I can get up to speed on Phases 1 & 2.
But as I'm playing Random now, I'll be looking out for similar exercies for P and Z. Most Likely 4-Gate and a 14/14 or 15 Hatch speedlings build.
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When my push fails; with what should i follow up? I always expand, but do i tech to siege, or to mediviacs?
I encounter this mostly against t's who go for fast tank.
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Excellent lol. Really useful. Helps me heaps and Im sure helps others too.
However I realized that while this is great vs Protoss and also Terran, I dont know if its just me, but vs Zerg it kinda doesnt work well since they use lings and blings, making my marauders almost useless? I feel like I have to use hellions instead.
But dont get me wrong, as a "template" this is pure GG!
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On August 16 2011 08:47 Unlogical wrote:I have been practising for 5 hours today. But I am unsure of what to do after 6:40. Tried a few games vs Very Hard AI. Replay
Check out the tips section for how to make use of the build in ladder.
On August 16 2011 19:32 davidk wrote:
When my push fails; with what should i follow up? I always expand, but do i tech to siege, or to mediviacs?
I encounter this mostly against t's who go for fast tank.
It depends on what league your in. If your in gold or lower your going to win most games if your push is on time. If your in platinum you may be ready to start learning some more advanced builds.
This build was only selected for the training and was meant to be used in ladder games until your performing it crisply under pressure.
Take a look at my Surviving Diamond guide in the tips section if your ready for the next step.
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I'm interested in lessons. I live in EST time zone but have no problem staying up late to learn! imjorman.348. I think I already have phase 1/2 mastered (platinum terran), but I certainly want to learn more!
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I practiced the build order until I had it down crisp, and while doing that also focused on never missing an SCV as well as being able to macro while not looking at my base. After a day or so of practice I went on the ladder with the 3 rax build and over the last 3 days I've won my last 14 games in a row going from rank 40 gold to rank 1:D
Half ended with the initial push, in a little less than the other half I did significant damage, like killing a zergs natural, and in only 1 or 2 games the attack didn't do well, but in any case I was in a situation where I expanded behind the pressure letting me continue to pull ahead. Also I find I have more SCV's than I know what to do with by the time my expansion is up I have 30+ SCV's mining at my main.
Thanks very much for this guide, I'm also still willing to help people as protoss if they need!
And for the person above who said they don't know what to do after 6:40, well, I usually get my expo and second gas down behind my initial attack, then it's up to you what tech path to go. The build is totally open ended. It doesn't starve your gas and it doesn't force you down any tech path. I find going straight to double starport banshee while getting 1/1 infantry works well. But that's gold league for you.
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It may also be beneficial to introduce splitting your units since 3rax is a easy build to manage with minimal actions. It's good i think to start getting used to splitting at early levels where usually players move in with a massive ball, because it's a significant micro mechanic that terran players should get used to (from the threat of banelings, fungals, collosi, et cetera). May be difficult for silver/gold, but even splitting an army into two is better than having one ball, also helps with preemptive learning for more complex builds that require you to be in two or more places at once. So maybe you can have players, as an exercise, always attack from two angles if possible, or have a small group of units attack destructible rocks as if it were an expo (or actually attack a vulnerable expo) while the main army pushes to the main base. And also as another exercise could be to regularly check the natural/third/gold every minute or so, and/or that the rally points for the barracks must be at or very near the opponent's natural, and the goal is to keep enemy units from sniping the poorly rallied units. This will teach players to learn the importance of map control and being mobile, and that it may not be wise to bunch up all your units in one spot (this is probably better for your surviving diamond post)
I really like your posts, instead of having some complicated sign up for lessons kinda thing people like to do, we can practice on our own effectively. Keep it up!
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Like I said this is truly awesome and helped me a lot. However, do you still use the same strategy vs Zerg? Most Zergs I face use banelings+zerglings, and I just feel..maybe I have to train more marines than marauders? Or even try hellions?
VS Protoss this is working sooo nicely
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Here's my replay: http://replayfu.com/r/T1j8qq
Just played my heart out on this match, went for a macro game, did a few drops, landed good EMPs, but it wasn't enough in the end  . My TvP really suffers in the mid-late game, help a brother out?
Edit: I know I botched the opening a bit, went for a lab instead of reactor by accident
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On August 17 2011 09:41 TangFish wrote:
It may also be beneficial to introduce splitting your units since 3rax is a easy build to manage with minimal actions. It's good i think to start getting used to splitting at early levels where usually players move in with a massive ball, because it's a significant micro mechanic that terran players should get used to (from the threat of banelings, fungals, collosi, et cetera). May be difficult for silver/gold, but even splitting an army into two is better than having one ball, also helps with preemptive learning for more complex builds that require you to be in two or more places at once. So maybe you can have players, as an exercise, always attack from two angles if possible, or have a small group of units attack destructible rocks as if it were an expo (or actually attack a vulnerable expo) while the main army pushes to the main base. And also as another exercise could be to regularly check the natural/third/gold every minute or so, and/or that the rally points for the barracks must be at or very near the opponent's natural, and the goal is to keep enemy units from sniping the poorly rallied units. This will teach players to learn the importance of map control and being mobile, and that it may not be wise to bunch up all your units in one spot (this is probably better for your surviving diamond post)
This is certainly true, I sometimes wish I spent more time on micro in the past when I make terrible micro mistakes that actually make a turning point in the game. In general silver - plat and even diamond though Macro mistakes cost you more units than micro mistakes. It is only easier to see how many units your losing in a battle over how many your losing from choppy Macro.
On August 17 2011 09:50 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:Like I said this is truly awesome and helped me a lot. However, do you still use the same strategy vs Zerg? Most Zergs I face use banelings+zerglings, and I just feel..maybe I have to train more marines than marauders? Or even try hellions? VS Protoss this is working sooo nicely
Keep in mind that a win right now is executing the build correctly, not so much if you win or lose the match. Honestly this build should ONLY be used against Protoss after you have become proficient with the exercises. However it will work well enough in the lower leagues against any race.
On August 17 2011 10:29 archbounds wrote:Here's my replay: http://replayfu.com/r/T1j8qqJust played my heart out on this match, went for a macro game, did a few drops, landed good EMPs, but it wasn't enough in the end . My TvP really suffers in the mid-late game, help a brother out? Edit: I know I botched the opening a bit, went for a lab instead of reactor by accident
I would really rather see you getting the build perfect in ladder up to the 6:40 mark than winning the game. The key point here is gaining the skills that will skyrocket you out of your league, not winning one game at a time. I will try to check out the replay tonight but it seems you found your first mistake already
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On August 17 2011 10:29 archbounds wrote:Here's my replay: http://replayfu.com/r/T1j8qqJust played my heart out on this match, went for a macro game, did a few drops, landed good EMPs, but it wasn't enough in the end . My TvP really suffers in the mid-late game, help a brother out? Edit: I know I botched the opening a bit, went for a lab instead of reactor by accident
You were not performing the 3rax build in this replay. At 7:20 (when your push would have arrived) Protoss had very few units and was trying to get an expo down with a pylon done on the low ground. You would have rolled him had you followed the build.
You had NO upgrades and 38 food at 6:40.
If you want to use 2rax pressure into expand you should:
Pull a worker out of gas to build a 2nd rax while orbital is upgrading. Return to minerals afterwards so that 2 guys are in gas. Build your supply AFTER orbital completes and scv is training.
Build a reactor when the marine completes.
Build a tech lab on second rax.
Pump marauders and get shells immediately.
When first marauder completes push with your marines 1 scv and your marauder, rally to opponents natural.
Use another scv to scout proxy pylons.
Don't push up ramp, deny expo, build bunkers on low ground out of sight from ramp.
Get a bunker in your nat and place a CC directly in your natural afterwards. Get stim when you have 100 gas.
When your CC is halfway done sneak way from his nat and sell bunkers.
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On August 18 2011 02:35 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
Keep in mind that a win right now is executing the build correctly, not so much if you win or lose the match. Honestly this build should ONLY be used against Protoss after you have become proficient with the exercises. However it will work well enough in the lower leagues against any race.
What early game build would you recommend as a stepping stone after this one in the zerg/terran matchups? One that isn't so complex and is open ended similar to the 3rax.
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On August 18 2011 04:46 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 10:29 archbounds wrote:Here's my replay: http://replayfu.com/r/T1j8qqJust played my heart out on this match, went for a macro game, did a few drops, landed good EMPs, but it wasn't enough in the end . My TvP really suffers in the mid-late game, help a brother out? Edit: I know I botched the opening a bit, went for a lab instead of reactor by accident You were not performing the 3rax build in this replay. At 7:20 (when your push would have arrived) Protoss had very few units and was trying to get an expo down with a pylon done on the low ground. You would have rolled him had you followed the build. You had NO upgrades and 38 food at 6:40. If you want to use 2rax pressure into expand you should: Pull a worker out of gas to build a 2nd rax while orbital is upgrading. Return to minerals afterwards so that 2 guys are in gas. Build your supply AFTER orbital completes and scv is training. Build a reactor when the marine completes. Build a tech lab on second rax. Pump marauders and get shells immediately. When first marauder completes push with your marines 1 scv and your marauder, rally to opponents natural. Use another scv to scout proxy pylons. Don't push up ramp, deny expo, build bunkers on low ground out of sight from ramp. Get a bunker in your nat and place a CC directly in your natural afterwards. Get stim when you have 100 gas. When your CC is halfway done sneak way from his nat and sell bunkers.
Thanks! That replay didn't show my cleanest play (believe it was my 15th game of the afternoon), but the 3rax looks excellent especially against Toss of my level who seem to love either all-ins or pure macro.
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On August 18 2011 05:06 ZaeZSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 02:35 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
Keep in mind that a win right now is executing the build correctly, not so much if you win or lose the match. Honestly this build should ONLY be used against Protoss after you have become proficient with the exercises. However it will work well enough in the lower leagues against any race.
What early game build would you recommend as a stepping stone after this one in the zerg/terran matchups? One that isn't so complex and is open ended similar to the 3rax.
I went into the general 1-1-1 (Destiny Cloud Fist) once I hit platinum myself. Which meant I started losing a lot more games, but then I started making good use of the tech I had available to push past any of the defense that a 3rax build would lose to. I still kept my expos around 10 minutes which is terrible by today's standards.
This was awhile back before the game had evolved much though. It may still be a viable way to learn tech but the best builds now are the fast expands with a well thought out push to keep your opponent honest.
If your having trouble learning a complicated build take it one piece at a time. For example I am working on 2 new builds, TvP and TvT. I can't remember every little detail of the build in one shot but I can make sure I get the first 5 minutes perfect, if I do that I am already on my way. Now I can work on the next 5-7 minute section and so on until I am 15 minutes into the build with no mistakes. Of course my builds also have branches so there is even more to learn, but it is like anything else, one step at a time.
I have gotten to the point where I just practice in ladder, since losses don't mean your skill level is being reduced, and you learn faster against serious players. Though you should only do this if you can get over trying to win the game and focus on what you set out to do.
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Thanks for this. Spent most of the night practicing this, pretty consistently getting the 51 food, stim and conc at 6:40, started in Silver League Rank 12, still in Silver Rank 1, but won 14 of 16 games, and am now playing against gold and platinum. Almost feel ready for phase 2.
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On August 16 2011 06:50 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 05:10 NewbieOne wrote:
Hey, nice idea and the coaching method intuitively sounds good. I'm a gold terran but I've played RTS games for like 16 years now (though mostly campaigns). I simply can't ever progress beyond a certain level, there are things that block me, including certain aspects of micro and macro that rely on coordination (I have a diagnosed problem with that) or multitasking. Around my peak time in TFT the guys I beat sometimes had four times my average APM (burst was more even, which is telling). According to my friend whom I actually taught to play (and he went on to play in top clans while I remained mid-skilled) and to my own observations, I was losing tons of games I shouldn't be, for strange reasons. It might be a good thing finally to fix these reasons after all these years of playing RTS. I'm inclined to think your set of exercises should be helpful in my case (though I can probably pull off #1 easily and would be tempted to skip to #3).
If I may chime in, I'd recommend that any new players (sort of like those guys you suggest come back in a month) wishing to improve to finish the Challenges first and get gold in all of them. As in, it doesn't make you gosu, but it's going to give you a grasp of things. I am finding more and more that mechanics is my primary bottleneck. The more confidence I have in performing a series of actions the more focus I have in the game.
Same but a different specific issue with mechanics, I think. I have a knack for bad decisions (timing mostly, cheese risk assessment, sometimes unit selection) and the other part is getting hard-countered, blind-countered or helpless against a certain build or mix.
I'm going to practice your 3 rax 6:40 stim build some this weekend, hopefully. There's just so much work I can't see the end of it and I was supposed to be on a leave.
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Please read Phase 1 and upload replays relevant to the training. I would really like to help but I need replays that are relevant. Being a bit behind is one thing, not even performing the build is another.
I watched 3 replays and your doing this 9 minute push with a 40 food MM army, your building more structures than you can possibly afford to produce out of, collecting way too much gas.
It appears you have the essential mechanics to perform the build your just choosing not to.
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On August 20 2011 04:53 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
It appears you have the essential mechanics to perform the build your just choosing not to.
Alright cool. At least, I got that part that is positive
I'll work on the rest! I'm a bit confused what to do AFTER the push, but I guess I'll work harder on the build
Thanks A. Seed
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On August 20 2011 08:07 DCSemi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 04:53 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
It appears you have the essential mechanics to perform the build your just choosing not to.
Alright cool. At least, I got that part that is positive I'll work on the rest! I'm a bit confused what to do AFTER the push, but I guess I'll work harder on the build Thanks A. Seed
I have a feeling that thinking about what to do after the push might be whats deterring your focus. Lets try to make it that far first and watch as things appear to fall in line.
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So you are recommending to push at 6:40 where you have 50+ food.
What is your push fails? What should you transition to? And when to build second CC and gas?
Maybe you can go transition to Mech, BFH, or even more Rax?
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On August 20 2011 23:19 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
So you are recommending to push at 6:40 where you have 50+ food.
What is your push fails? What should you transition to? And when to build second CC and gas?
Maybe you can go transition to Mech, BFH, or even more Rax?
What you do after the push is up to you, it is irrelevant to the training. You want to use the build in ladder to ensue you can do it under pressure is all before moving on to Phase 2. When your done with Phase 3 learning a real build will be much easier. If your in silver there will not often be anything to do after the push which means you will be in gold - plat soon and ready to start using new build orders.
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Hello
I was playing sc2 right after release for a few months until my comp just couldn't handle it anymore and i decided to stop playing until i could get a new comp. some stuff hit the fan and i couldn't play for ten months D: ( started again a few days ago)
before i left i was consistently winning but now i just lose over and over haha.
this has helped so much i'm currently working hard on phase one and soon to start phase two. thanks so much!!
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iMMortaL.797 I am a high silvers player who plays a gold lvl Zerg, but a silver lvl Terran. this sounds great!
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This is a great thread, thanks AS. Mid-Silver Random player here who switched from High Gold Zerg - this sort of stuff will help me immensely with Terran! Going to put a few good hours into it today. Hardest part is learning all the matchups again for Terran and getting that 'one' build such as the 3rax nailed down.
I play on the SEA server predominantly so can't really get onto the NA server at the right times, but I'll check back here to see how it's all progressing. Keep updating it because it's awesome!
Thanks again ^_^
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This is an awesome technique. Been following this for two weeks and it's made a huge improvement in my mechanics.
I'd be very happy to help others train on NA: Dice.179
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I have been using this build solidly for a week (100+ games) and went from low low bronze to top silver. I've got it down pat, however; my big problem comes with the transition when my push fails. Anyway, I'd really like to get competitive (not pro by any means) in starcraft, and I don't have a lot of people to help me train. Please add me if you want to give me some pointers.
Name: UnderOath
Code: 264
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So last time I uploaded replays, I was criticize a lot (positively tho). So tonight, I went with an hour and a half session of "learning" the build. I played something like 15-17 games against the Mighty Player 2, trying to nail the build down. It went very well so I went back to the ladder to test it out. The results? 4W-1L. Wow, this is completely sick since I'm a very noobish Bronze level player.
I focused on just "NAILING THE BUILD". No "What I'll do next". Just doing the build. Simple enough! And it worked! In one of the game, I donno what happened but my SCV all stopped and I lost my focus right away. Soon after, I was like "calm down, you'll get this stuff right", and I did. I'm pretty proud of that.
I've been following this thread since it's creation and I remarked I was the only one who posted replays to get helped. Guess what? I'll do it again! So, if anyone wanna see what I just did tonight, feel free to do so!
When I started, I was 34th in my Division. After that nice streak, I was 10th, 2 shy from Top 8. For some, it may not represent a lot, but for me, it is!
Like I said in earlier posts, feel free to add me and we might be able to practice together. UncleCarlos.549
Thanks again A.Seed, I really feel like I did VERY well in those replays
Game #1: http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/8350/UncleCarlos_vs_Cridwill
Game #2: http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/8351/UncleCarlos_vs_Pedro
Game #3: http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/8352/UncleCarlos_vs_Hellionprime
Game #4: http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/8353/SOTGHALZ_vs_UncleCarlos
Game #5: http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/8354/UncleCarlos_vs_PooButt
I'm very proud since I won against a Top Gold player, and a Top Silver player.
booyah!
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Now this is what I want to see! I see some discipline here and it is leading to results!
Now I can give you some actual pointers as there is only a couple things that need adjustment.
Your reaching 50+ food generally around the mid 7 minute mark. Imagine if you had all this food at 6:40 and could push out then, every second counts against your opponent's defense with your opening push.
There is only 2 reasons this is happening which are easy to spot when watching your own replays. You build the 3rd Racks too late, sometimes far too late. It should go down at about 70% of completion on your 2nd Rax. Easy fix.
Your having problems managing supply, almost always building 2 even 3 supply depots at once instead of one at a time. This costs 200 - 300 minerals instead of 100 which is detrimental at the start of the game. You will see how detrimental when you get your rax down in time and run out of money.
Think of it this way, once you start the 3rd supply depot, you are never going to stop making them, build one right after the 3rd finishes and continue doing this until you lose units in a battle.
I would say there are only 2 things you need to focus on right now. Improve that scv production a bit more, and try to never get supply blocked (causing you to have to build more than one depot at once) until at least you have a 2nd base down (usually you will have won by then). Once you get into mid game it gets harder and harder to manage supply but it is less detrimental to your eco and your army size.
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I want lessons :L I'm EU, can't remember character code but I'm FeastyOwlEgg on EU
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On August 25 2011 05:03 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Now this is what I want to see! I see some discipline here and it is leading to results! Now I can give you some actual pointers as there is only a couple things that need adjustment. Your reaching 50+ food generally around the mid 7 minute mark. Imagine if you had all this food at 6:40 and could push out then, every second counts against your opponent's defense with your opening push. There is only 2 reasons this is happening which are easy to spot when watching your own replays. You build the 3rd Racks too late, sometimes far too late. It should go down at about 70% of completion on your 2nd Rax. Easy fix. Your having problems managing supply, almost always building 2 even 3 supply depots at once instead of one at a time. This costs 200 - 300 minerals instead of 100 which is detrimental at the start of the game. You will see how detrimental when you get your rax down in time and run out of money. Think of it this way, once you start the 3rd supply depot, you are never going to stop making them, build one right after the 3rd finishes and continue doing this until you lose units in a battle. I would say there are only 2 things you need to focus on right now. Improve that scv production a bit more, and try to never get supply blocked (causing you to have to build more than one depot at once) until at least you have a 2nd base down (usually you will have won by then). Once you get into mid game it gets harder and harder to manage supply but it is less detrimental to your eco and your army size.
Whoa! Thanks for all those tips, i'll try to fix my mistakes when i'll get on the ladder tomorrow. Can't wait to try this stuff hehe! Many many thanks A.Seed
And yeah, i always get supply blocked and it tilts me haha!
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We started on this tonight. My cousin and I have always loved Starcraft but never been any good at it simply because we didn't play a lot. This is the first season ever for us that we actually played more than 1 or 2 games.
I can tell already that this is going to be the missing link in our games and our path to improvement. We've been doing pretty well against Toss and Zerg with a good win percentage. Terran has been an absolute nightmare for me mostly. He does a little better than me at Terran but still our worst matchup.
He practiced for a while on AI tonight then hopped on ladder to try phase 1 out and won 5 games in a row putting him finally at #1 bronze. They were all against silver players too. I'm #8 bronze right now and have only run a couple of practice games so far against AI.
Granted we were doing ok for our first season ever but I can tell this practice routine will be the linchpin to success for us. My cousin's apm (we don't spam anything so it's a good measurement for us of how well we're keeping up with stuff and improving) went up 20 points; from 40 to 60, in one night just doing phase 1 and having a really clear idea of a build.
Looking forward to working this in and having lots of success. Thanks to the OP for this post. Really grateful!
(sorry if I'm rambling a bit. worked 12 hours and way past my bed time!)
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On August 20 2011 23:19 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
So you are recommending to push at 6:40 where you have 50+ food.
What is your push fails? What should you transition to? And when to build second CC and gas?
Maybe you can go transition to Mech, BFH, or even more Rax?
not sure if my advise is wanted(might be considered spam AND I'm inexperienced myself) but when the push fails, you have at least crippled their army and part of their tech. I thought of 2 options from there on: if he has an exp up, expand yourself, if not, build an additional refinery , and an engineering bay at the same time to start an upgrade. then push again as soon as the upgrade is finished.
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Well, most of the time I didn't win on my First push, I have some units to back me up, when I have another "nice" army, I go back, and usually, I get the GG if I didn't get it on the first try.
To have played about 20 games using that build, that's *generally* what happened to me.
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A little update on my previous post.
My cousin went 15 wins in a row with this today then lost two and won two for a total of 17 and 2. The 2 losses were just from doing the build wrong and making a couple of serious blunders early on in the build order. Easily corrected.
For anyone that doubts the power of this practice build, it is amazing for teaching you how to properly execute a build and seeing/feeling the synergy of a proper build as it comes together.
My cousin started at about 6th or 7th place bronze about 50 points behind #1 in his division. The next to last game of this session he was over 200 points ahead of the previous first place player. The last game he won, he was promoted to silver and not only that but 1st place in his silver division. My guess is it wanted to promo him to gold but it doesn't do that any longer. He beat several gold level players during this win streak.
I started practicing this myself tonight against AI and won 3 in a row laddering. At first it was really difficult for me to get the build exactly right. I got a big piece of white paper and wrote the build order down with a sharpie. I kept that sheet right in front of me while I played. By my third game, I was pushing out at 6:40 with 49 supply and typically around 54 or 55 by the time I got to the opponents base. I can literally FEEL when I'm doing wrong after practicing this or when I make a mistake because the synergy goes away. I never realized until now how important it is to have a proper build order and execute it perfectly. This opened my eyes just from this one little exercise. Previously I just used the general idea of a build order to win games and did fairly well in bronze with about a 70% win percentage. This proves how important sticking to a build religiously is for growth and learning.
Thanks again! Just thought I'd post the success we're having with it.
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On August 26 2011 07:09 sayu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 23:19 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
So you are recommending to push at 6:40 where you have 50+ food.
What is your push fails? What should you transition to? And when to build second CC and gas?
Maybe you can go transition to Mech, BFH, or even more Rax? not sure if my advise is wanted(might be considered spam AND I'm inexperienced myself) but when the push fails, you have at least crippled their army and part of their tech. I thought of 2 options from there on: if he has an exp up, expand yourself, if not, build an additional refinery , and an engineering bay at the same time to start an upgrade. then push again as soon as the upgrade is finished.
When the push fails, we just continue to rally up outside the natural and prevent an expo while poking and doing what pressure/damage we can. Back at home we're expo'ing ourselves and transitioning to whatever will hard counter what we're seeing with our pokes. Sometimes what we're already making is perfect so just add more supply, expo, keep pumping units and get medivacs. With the expo you can double the amount of marauder/marine production almost while adding in medivacs. It's pretty amazing and a quick route to 200/200.
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Haha, I read the OP and almost expected a
"sign up now to our exclusive mailing list for $2.99 a month and start learning the incredible secrets of ultra-fast Terran improvement today!"
at the end.
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This is actually a very well thought OP. I can tell this being a very effective practice regime for the levels it is intended for.
Just throwing it in there
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Thank you immensely, good sir. I'm a high silver Terran who hit a wall early-I knew all the things I was SUPPOSED to be doing but given that I'm married, have an active social life and a job, I just wasn't able to give SC2 the time I would have liked to. Frustrated, I quit for months, hoping there was an efficient way to improve. I think this might be it.
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I tried winging a 3-rax today just to taste how it feels. It's awkward, I got 4gated. Is this build really a solid build? I try a 1-1-1 most of the time because I'm bad at scouting and I scan the base to follow up on my build, it hasn't been bringing me the best of successes, but I'm afraid of trying the 3Rax build. ANyone have encouraging words/advice? (Maybe 2Rax 1Factory for my confidence?, or just try and learn the build?).
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On August 26 2011 21:15 KenDM wrote:
I tried winging a 3-rax today just to taste how it feels. It's awkward, I got 4gated. Is this build really a solid build? I try a 1-1-1 most of the time because I'm bad at scouting and I scan the base to follow up on my build, it hasn't been bringing me the best of successes, but I'm afraid of trying the 3Rax build. ANyone have encouraging words/advice? (Maybe 2Rax 1Factory for my confidence?, or just try and learn the build?).
Provide a replay where you reach 50 food around 6:40 and lose. I will be happy to analyze it.
Is the build good in high level play? No, it is designed for these exercises and lower level ladder play. The build is sacrificing tech and economy in order to get a strong army and the push is designed to be before your opponent's tech becomes viable. It is also rather simple so that you can focus on improving your mechanics.
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Hi all,
I worked hard on the build but big problem to achieve 50 food at 6:40. I m almost at 46. Then i try it on the ladder, result 15 losses, only 6 wins. Indeed it s quite an all in but I can be wrong.
Don t know if I shold contune the experimentation or stop here.
GL HF
A1eks
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OMG, this really worked for me o_O. You can check out my Battle net match history, I won almost everything today! :O But here's the thing: What do you advise for people looking to have more variety in their games? And I saw the Battle net thread for updates on 1.4 and I saw that Rax will take 65 seconds to build instead of 60, what kind of impact will that have on this play?
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On August 28 2011 05:01 KenDM wrote:
OMG, this really worked for me o_O. You can check out my Battle net match history, I won almost everything today! :O But here's the thing: What do you advise for people looking to have more variety in their games? And I saw the Battle net thread for updates on 1.4 and I saw that Rax will take 65 seconds to build instead of 60, what kind of impact will that have on this play?
It has been said time and time again,that repetitiveness is the best way to improve, so I wouldn't recommend doing another build.
Granted, for each matchup, there ARE better builds, and you probably should find some other builds. But I'm gonna assume your lower level, and get by just fine with this build.
and the 65 seconds shouldn't have a HUGE impact on the build, the base units are gonna be the same and all, it will just probably be about 5-8 seconds later.
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Hi again,
I m now at 50 food, but still no result. 7 losses 2 wins...
Should be back in bronze soon :-( . Does anyone have any ideas ?
A1eks
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On August 28 2011 10:25 A1eks wrote:
Hi again,
I m now at 50 food, but still no result. 7 losses 2 wins...
Should be back in bronze soon :-( . Does anyone have any ideas ?
A1eks
Upload a couple replays man, we will get it figured out.
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Here's a nice follow-up question: What do you do AGAINST a 3Rax? I had an opponent out-3Rax me. How to scout for this? What to counter with? (Blue-flame hellions?)
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EDIT:
I got owned BEFORE the 6.40 minute mark
http://drop.sc/29723
How could one anticipate that? Because I didn't scout? Anyone mind checking the replay and see if there was anything I could have done? Pushed earlier? Or just bad luck?
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On August 28 2011 21:23 KenDM wrote:Here's a nice follow-up question: What do you do AGAINST a 3Rax? I had an opponent out-3Rax me. How to scout for this? What to counter with? (Blue-flame hellions?) --------------------------------------------- EDIT: I got owned BEFORE the 6.40 minute mark http://drop.sc/29723How could one anticipate that? Because I didn't scout? Anyone mind checking the replay and see if there was anything I could have done? Pushed earlier? Or just bad luck?
This is a TvZ, not sure how Zerg would 3racks
Anyways the reason you lost this game is the zerg 1 based you. If Z does not get a fast hatch either they are going to 6 roach rush or baneling bust you. So scout that hatch timing, you will pick up on it. 2 ways to counter roach, either build a bunker or pull scvs. Either way works since zerg is making a huge sacrifice by staying on one base.
If your opponent is doing 3 racks your in luck, since your build should be more crisp than theirs and should be an easy win. The only way you will lose is if you stim up ramp vs their smaller army, which will have the ramp advantage and likely kill you. You may want to start scanning the ramp or running a marine up first to scout the ramp at this point before pushing in. Explanations in the tips section.
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Sorry my post wasn't clear, I was indeed talking about two different scenario's.
Anyway. TvZ: At what time should I decide he's 1Basing? As soon as I finish my second supply depot for the wall I send that SCV to scout. I even saw he had a roach warren, but I didn't know I should have had bunkers ><" ...
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EDIT:
So now I have played a couple of games and I seem to get the hang of the build but I'm stuck at Rank 3, 2 or 1 in bronze league. I have some replays where I push at the correct time but I seem to lose the match anyway. Some help one what I should focus on next?
http://drop.sc/29816 - Did I overcommit?
http://drop.sc/29815 - What should have gone differently?
http://drop.sc/29829 - I had the unit count advantage, but I got owned, what to do?
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On August 29 2011 17:35 KenDM wrote:
Sorry my post wasn't clear, I was indeed talking about two different scenario's.
Anyway. TvZ: At what time should I decide he's 1Basing? As soon as I finish my second supply depot for the wall I send that SCV to scout. I even saw he had a roach warren, but I didn't know I should have had bunkers ><" ...
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If Z does not get hatch before pool finishes then they should get one immediately after, if not it is a 1 base all in. If you spot a roach warren, that is bonus, now you know it is a roach push and not a bane bust. Build a single bunker before roaches get to your base, use replay for timing. Use some scvs to repair.
On August 29 2011 17:35 KenDM wrote:EDIT: So now I have played a couple of games and I seem to get the hang of the build but I'm stuck at Rank 3, 2 or 1 in bronze league. I have some replays where I push at the correct time but I seem to lose the match anyway. Some help one what I should focus on next? http://drop.sc/29816 - Did I overcommit? http://drop.sc/29815 - What should have gone differently? http://drop.sc/29829 - I had the unit count advantage, but I got owned, what to do?
Your stuck at the top of your division? That doesn't sound so bad. It takes hundreds of games before the system can determine your next league placement.
First game.
10 food behind on build
Targeting void was good unfortunate it got away with like 5 health.
It only takes 1 or 2 vikings to deal with void rays, not 10. They outrange voids. Medivacs would have made a big difference, since med-marine is also good against voids and they can heal your army for after you kill the void rays. Also, you can land vikings.
Second game
10 food behind on build
If toss goes mass Zelots (which is super rare) a heavy marauder army is not going to do so well, start making more rines and practice stutter step. With conc you can stutter step a great number of lots without taking any damage.
Game 3
10 food behind on build followed be a huge series of mistakes
These mistakes are common for a lower level player, so don't feel like it is anything you need to fix in a short amount of time. However you were so far ahead on this game it was silly.
First mistake, you backed down ramp when you had a larger army. If you are fighting only stalkers and your marauder count is the same, do not leave. Marauders > stalkers without blink.
Second mistake, After you gave him time to warp in more units you still had the advantage, you once again ended up having a much larger army but you only had 3 marauders attacking, the rest were doing laps behind your attacking marauders. Stutter step forward so that all units can shoot. This just takes some practice and watching replays to ensure all your units are attacking in every engagement.
Third mistake. Bad rally, you rallied all your units to their death.
If the build would have been on time the push would have won from the start however which means the only real mistake was being behind on the build, although there is a lot to learn from the scenarios that came up.
Finally, common trend: 10 food behind on build.
That alone will change the entire scenario in all your games. The push will come faster and/or be stronger. Either way your learning lots.
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Wow thanks for the reply Adrenaline Seed. Do you think you know why I'm behind on my food count? Could it be because of the first marine I pump out of the Rax? Or wrong timing for my orbital command? Maybe it's because of the harass I keep getting? (I don't think I got harassed in these replays, but I get it a lot).
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On August 30 2011 06:46 KenDM wrote:
Wow thanks for the reply Adrenaline Seed. Do you think you know why I'm behind on my food count? Could it be because of the first marine I pump out of the Rax? Or wrong timing for my orbital command? Maybe it's because of the harass I keep getting? (I don't think I got harassed in these replays, but I get it a lot).
I pulled up the xel-naga one just as an example and looked over the details. It starts out as a few small things that quickly snowball into a major problem.
You get your gas down late, and then follow that up with a late second rax, there are also little gaps in your unit production, optimal queuing is right before not right after. There is one little gap on a scv because you can't afford it if you scout but that is ok, i am talking about all the times you could afford it.
All this adds up to your floating upwards of 500 minerals while your doing the build. Your mins and gas should be bouncing off zero constantly.
It might just take a bit more practice in mechanics and focus, sometimes even it is the hardware holding people back, using an LED mouse for example, or a walmart keyboard. I guess the point is that once you find what is holding you back, focus, hardware, mechanics, you can work on improving it. Once you do the speed in executing that action will forever follow you through all your builds and strategies.
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On August 28 2011 21:23 KenDM wrote:Here's a nice follow-up question: What do you do AGAINST a 3Rax? I had an opponent out-3Rax me. How to scout for this? What to counter with? (Blue-flame hellions?) --------------------------------------------- EDIT: I got owned BEFORE the 6.40 minute mark http://drop.sc/29723How could one anticipate that? Because I didn't scout? Anyone mind checking the replay and see if there was anything I could have done? Pushed earlier? Or just bad luck?
Also, in this TvZ you posted, you were well behind on the build. There was at least one time an SCV wasn't building for upwards of 10 seconds and similar on one of your marauders. Your barracks didn't go down in time and the reactor was late with the rax just sitting there.
This build can easily beat the 7 roach rush. Happened to me several times so far. Those roaches had 4 range. Your marauders have 6. Don't stand the marauders right next to the supply depot where all the roaches can hit you. Move then back to range and let SCV's repair. If you lose some SCV's it won't matter because you will demolish his army.
In between his roach pushes, throw down a bunker (which adds even more range and can be repaired from behind the wall and too far for the roaches to kill the scv's).
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On August 30 2011 23:53 Bluemalice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 21:23 KenDM wrote:Here's a nice follow-up question: What do you do AGAINST a 3Rax? I had an opponent out-3Rax me. How to scout for this? What to counter with? (Blue-flame hellions?) --------------------------------------------- EDIT: I got owned BEFORE the 6.40 minute mark http://drop.sc/29723How could one anticipate that? Because I didn't scout? Anyone mind checking the replay and see if there was anything I could have done? Pushed earlier? Or just bad luck? Also, in this TvZ you posted, you were well behind on the build. There was at least one time an SCV wasn't building for upwards of 10 seconds and similar on one of your marauders. Your barracks didn't go down in time and the reactor was late with the rax just sitting there. This build can easily beat the 7 roach rush. Happened to me several times so far. Those roaches had 4 range. Your marauders have 6. Don't stand the marauders right next to the supply depot where all the roaches can hit you. Move then back to range and let SCV's repair. If you lose some SCV's it won't matter because you will demolish his army. In between his roach pushes, throw down a bunker (which adds even more range and can be repaired from behind the wall and too far for the roaches to kill the scv's).
I used to have trouble with the roach push using a reactor hellion opening, so I would build a bunker when I saw one base play and put 2 rines in it (all the units I had). I could fend off 6 roaches with 2 rines in a bunker and 4 scvs repairing. I once sat there for ages watching in awe as a bunker with 10 health being repaired killed off roach after roach followed by gg.
Now I don't even both to build a bunker, which is risky but I almost always hold them off with just 4 hellions. Range, speed, and repair
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I think the problem with the build, if you have not watched the original replay, is that the timing is very precise. You have to move out your SCVs at precise times to where you want to build your structures BEFORE you build them. This is not stated explicitly, but it may be something that experienced RTSers just know and don't realize that they have to state it when talking to a complete newbie. Just in the first phase so far and I have practiced the BO about 50 or 60 times, about 40 in YABOT and 20 on ladder and I still cannot hit the exact food at the exact time most of the time on ladder. This is mainly because harass and scouting from the opponent causes timing delays. I guess the timing margin of error is super thin and must be spot on in order to do enough damage with the first attack because I find if you lose that first battle, it becomes hard to scramble back to an advantageous position, even if you macro well.
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On August 31 2011 00:50 NotDeadJustSlob wrote:
I think the problem with the build, if you have not watched the original replay, is that the timing is very precise. You have to move out your SCVs at precise times to where you want to build your structures BEFORE you build them. This is not stated explicitly, but it may be something that experienced RTSers just know and don't realize that they have to state it when talking to a complete newbie. Just in the first phase so far and I have practiced the BO about 50 or 60 times, about 40 in YABOT and 20 on ladder and I still cannot hit the exact food at the exact time most of the time on ladder. This is mainly because harass and scouting from the opponent causes timing delays. I guess the timing margin of error is super thin and must be spot on in order to do enough damage with the first attack because I find if you lose that first battle, it becomes hard to scramble back to an advantageous position, even if you macro well.
Very true. All the better to place the focus on discipline.
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On August 31 2011 03:51 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:50 NotDeadJustSlob wrote:
I think the problem with the build, if you have not watched the original replay, is that the timing is very precise. You have to move out your SCVs at precise times to where you want to build your structures BEFORE you build them. This is not stated explicitly, but it may be something that experienced RTSers just know and don't realize that they have to state it when talking to a complete newbie. Just in the first phase so far and I have practiced the BO about 50 or 60 times, about 40 in YABOT and 20 on ladder and I still cannot hit the exact food at the exact time most of the time on ladder. This is mainly because harass and scouting from the opponent causes timing delays. I guess the timing margin of error is super thin and must be spot on in order to do enough damage with the first attack because I find if you lose that first battle, it becomes hard to scramble back to an advantageous position, even if you macro well. Very true. All the better to place the focus on discipline.
Well then, any tips on what to focus on in this build? Because as you know, it's quite hard to multitask, I don't even know what timings to aim for.
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On August 31 2011 05:01 KenDM wrote:
Well then, any tips on what to focus on in this build? Because as you know, it's quite hard to multitask, I don't even know what timings to aim for.
That is what Phase 2 is for.
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A couple of tips I've picked up.
First -- Phase 3 can be practiced without a live partner using very easy AI (Protoss), in which the AI will only build a single zealot for a very long time (at least 7 or 8 minutes). Send a scouting SCV to the AI's base about when the first depot finishes and micro it around as you finish the build. The zealot will chase you around in a fairly naive way. Keep your scout alive and still reach 50 food by 6:40. If you can do that, I submit that you will have good confidence in this technique and not lose many (lower level) ladder games anymore.
Second -- As a further/complementary training step, you might consider practicing the build on the Macro Or Die maps. The Green Tea AI used is a more advanced (fairly realistic and challenging) AI than is used in stock Blizzard maps. Also, and foremost, on these maps, if you let your resource bank get too high (in proportion to your total supply) then your mineral line gets nuked. So here, the training objective is (a) get to 50 food by 6:40, (b) avoid getting nuked, and finally (c) win the game against increasingly difficult AI opponents. This 3 rax build, executed crisply, will keep your macro well honed initially, but you also need to keep the macro going into the mid and late game. The nuke pressure forces you to prioritize macro in your multitasking, with great results. To play Macro Or Die, search custom games for '+Macro +Die' and several maps will come up (at least on the AM server).
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Does anyone bring an SCV to build a bunker? I tried this and it became so much more powerful vs P and Z. Also, what leagues are you guys getting into this way? I got to top of silver and terrans started cloak banshee rushing almost exclusively. How are you all dealing with that? I am now going 1-1-1 and still in silver. I think I am going to come back to this because my mehanics clearly still need a ton of work.
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I have been wondering something similar to Lazy8s. I'm high Gold now, can I really 3-rax my way to platinum? Anyone doing this at that level?
EDIT: I think I answered my own question, I just won 5 in a row against high gold players of all 3 races.
In the actual games though, I'm coming up 4-5 food short at 6:40, so I need to check my replays. I scout with my SCV that builds the first barracks, could that have something to do with it?
Good stuff.
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@Tuplex: Could be true, maybe you should send the first marine out to scout...? I usually send out my scv after finishing the second SD.
@Adrenaline Seed: Do you think I'm ready for phase 2 of the training? I really want to get this build down so I can focus on reacting faster and more accurately.
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After playing vs. AI a few times and sending my SCV to scout like I did on the ladder, I was still able to hit 51 or 52 supply by 6:40, so it seems that is not the reason I was coming up short when laddering. It must be my execution, going to keep practicing...
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On September 01 2011 21:53 KenDM wrote:
@Adrenaline Seed: Do you think I'm ready for phase 2 of the training? I really want to get this build down so I can focus on reacting faster and more accurately.
As soon as you have the build down start working on Phase 2. It is only going to improve your ability to execute the build in ladder. No reason to wait!
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Im happy to help out when im online
WraithIV.252 EU server
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Ill help anyone who needs practice against a zerg (gold/plat level)
Fallians.904 on NA server
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Macro-related question: When you have only 1 barracks assigned to your control group, you can see the progress of marauder/marine training and you can then press d/a on the right moment. But what if I group all my rax together (that's how I'm used to playing), what's your advise there on unit production timings?
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I think the only way is to queue one production cycle (ie, one marauder building and one queued, or two marines and two queued), otherwise you will have gaps in your production.
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On September 02 2011 04:02 KenDM wrote:
Macro-related question: When you have only 1 barracks assigned to your control group, you can see the progress of marauder/marine training and you can then press d/a on the right moment. But what if I group all my rax together (that's how I'm used to playing), what's your advise there on unit production timings?
The way I do it is if I have a scv queued and a depot building then I know I can go ahead and queue in the next line of MM. You can also just feel the timing after a while to within a few seconds.
If all else fails you can double tap your rax hotkey, then double tap back to your army. It should only take about .2 seconds to get a mental picture of where each building is in the production cycle.
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Merlin.787 willing to be practice dummy if needed, masters ranking.
If you can't use me, then no biggy. Great idea.
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On September 02 2011 05:47 Tuplex wrote:
I think the only way is to queue one production cycle (ie, one marauder building and one queued, or two marines and two queued), otherwise you will have gaps in your production.
What if you don't have enough resources?
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Then you just have to watch it very closely and start another unit as soon as the previous one finishes. But even with this tight build, I find that you can queue the next units at least a few seconds before the previous ones finish. So, if you know that your 2 marines should be coming out fairly soon, just watch your minerals and as soon as you have 100, hit a-a to queue them up. It's hard when you are not watching your base.
When you ARE watching your base, if you have health bars turned on, you can see the production status bar for all of your buildings and addons, that helps too.
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What do you guys do when you engage in battle and want to kite your marauders. Do you produce at your base or do you finish the battle or what? I usually fight out the battle (in the last game this mostly destroys my front army, I do have a small army stacked at the base for defense against surprise attacks.)
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On September 02 2011 04:02 KenDM wrote:
Macro-related question: When you have only 1 barracks assigned to your control group, you can see the progress of marauder/marine training and you can then press d/a on the right moment. But what if I group all my rax together (that's how I'm used to playing), what's your advise there on unit production timings?
This is a great question. Part of it is a biological clock, where you practice the timing so that your queuing but not too early. This will only take you so far into the mid game though where everything else causes you to lose track of these finite timings.
The important thing is that you get it right in the start game, when timings matter more than ever. It should be connected to your build, you should have an idea of when your marauders and your marines are going to finish based on what is happening for the first 7 - 10 minutes of your game.
Once your into mid game it is perfectly fine to just make sure there are 2 dots at all times (4 for a reactor). When you get to masters you might start looking at further improving this, but for now there is much more to focus on in mid game.
Something interesting that SlayerSMMA does is sets all his production buildings to a single hotkey (4) as usual but also sets his reactor rax (when he has one) to its own separate hotkey (3). This way he can tap 3 and see the progress, put 2 marines in when ready. Now he knows marauders take a bit longer than rines, so he taps 4 a moment later and ignores the structure with 2 dots as that is his reactor, and he adds 2 more marauders to the queue. He still keeps the reactor on his global (4) hotkey however so that he can get a full overview of his current production without double tapping. Eventually he re-assigns hotkey 3 when he needs it for something else, and 4 still contains everything.
On September 02 2011 20:02 KenDM wrote:
What do you guys do when you engage in battle and want to kite your marauders. Do you produce at your base or do you finish the battle or what? I usually fight out the battle (in the last game this mostly destroys my front army, I do have a small army stacked at the base for defense against surprise attacks.)
You can do both at the same time. Give it a try. If you only fight out the battle you will lose more units in production than you save from micro.
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We were doing really well with this but recently started getting our butts kicked with this build. I think about 80% of my games have been where the other person has done an even earlier rush to my base and I end up defending. Since I'm basically one-basing up to this point, when I hold it off, I expand and move out and he's already massing some huge force. The games end up going for 25 minutes and basically just negates this build entirely because of always getting forced into late game with it and trying to catch up on my tech.
Any suggestions?
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On September 03 2011 01:37 Bluemalice wrote:
We were doing really well with this but recently started getting our butts kicked with this build. I think about 80% of my games have been where the other person has done an even earlier rush to my base and I end up defending. Since I'm basically one-basing up to this point, when I hold it off, I expand and move out and he's already massing some huge force. The games end up going for 25 minutes and basically just negates this build entirely because of always getting forced into late game with it and trying to catch up on my tech.
Any suggestions?
Sounds like a perfect scenario to me. If you can defend early pushes and go into late game it is great practice. Remember it is not about winning games, it is about improving your play. Don't try to kill your opponent, try to keep him from getting a third while you secure yours and work on staying on top of production.
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EDIT:
I edited this post because I'm now out of rage mode (blush).
1 - The build: The food count for producing structures and units: If it says refinery on 13, does that mean refinery should be up BEFORE 13? Or start building refinery AT 13 food?
Secondly: I build my 2nd depot BEFORE 16 food because I'm desperate to get my wall up. How much consequences does this have?
2 - Adaptation: I lost to mutalisk a couple of times today with this 3Rax build. Any tips on how to defend? Stop marauder and produce full-time marines? Extra Rax? Or a reactor on an existing Rax? My Thors in all these games got owned by a magic box :S Any tips on how to adjust this build to certain dangerous situations would be helpfull.
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On September 03 2011 22:30 KenDM wrote:
EDIT:
I edited this post because I'm now out of rage mode (blush).
1 - The build: The food count for producing structures and units: If it says refinery on 13, does that mean refinery should be up BEFORE 13? Or start building refinery AT 13 food?
Secondly: I build my 2nd depot BEFORE 16 food because I'm desperate to get my wall up. How much consequences does this have?
2 - Adaptation: I lost to mutalisk a couple of times today with this 3Rax build. Any tips on how to defend? Stop marauder and produce full-time marines? Extra Rax? Or a reactor on an existing Rax? My Thors in all these games got owned by a magic box :S Any tips on how to adjust this build to certain dangerous situations would be helpfull.
1 - It means start building your refinery when you have 13 food. If you start your 2nd depot before 16, then it will delay your Orbital Command and/or first marine. Honestly, there's not a lot to worry about before 16 food, I don't think you need to start that second depot so early.
2 - If your attack at 6:40 doesn't succeed, and you suspect mutalisks are coming, then you could expand and put up an engineering bay, add a few more barracks, and go for heavy marines with turrets. You'll need that engineering bay anyway to upgrade your infantry, so this is an efficient way to do it.
Question for Adrenaline Seed - do you recommend rallying reinforcements to your army when you push at 6:40? Or keep them in the base?
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On September 06 2011 01:50 Tuplex wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 22:30 KenDM wrote:
EDIT:
I edited this post because I'm now out of rage mode (blush).
1 - The build: The food count for producing structures and units: If it says refinery on 13, does that mean refinery should be up BEFORE 13? Or start building refinery AT 13 food?
Secondly: I build my 2nd depot BEFORE 16 food because I'm desperate to get my wall up. How much consequences does this have?
2 - Adaptation: I lost to mutalisk a couple of times today with this 3Rax build. Any tips on how to defend? Stop marauder and produce full-time marines? Extra Rax? Or a reactor on an existing Rax? My Thors in all these games got owned by a magic box :S Any tips on how to adjust this build to certain dangerous situations would be helpfull.
1 - It means start building your refinery when you have 13 food. If you start your 2nd depot before 16, then it will delay your Orbital Command and/or first marine. Honestly, there's not a lot to worry about before 16 food, I don't think you need to start that second depot so early. 2 - If your attack at 6:40 doesn't succeed, and you suspect mutalisks are coming, then you could expand and put up an engineering bay, add a few more barracks, and go for heavy marines with turrets. You'll need that engineering bay anyway to upgrade your infantry, so this is an efficient way to do it. Question for Adrenaline Seed - do you recommend rallying reinforcements to your army when you push at 6:40? Or keep them in the base?
Thanks, and an interesting question. To add, I tried both ways, and for me I'm not sure what's best. If the first push is successful and you have an army left, rallying reinforcements to that army might give you more strength at the next push. I guess if your first push gets taken out, or gets crippled severely, it doesn't make sense to have scattered reinforcements rally up there anymore.
@ Seed: I'm starting to lose my faith in following this build blindly. Look at this replay, I think I got everything spot on right?
Replay is processing, I'll link you later. Drop.SC is tripping.
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On September 06 2011 01:50 Tuplex wrote:
Question for Adrenaline Seed - do you recommend rallying reinforcements to your army when you push at 6:40? Or keep them in the base?
You don't need to rally. Your push is going to win against anything that does not counter it, and if your up against a counter you should prolly go home.
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Dear all,
Apologizes to Master Adrenaline Seed. Now that I'm able to do the build in a correct way and able to expand if needed here are my results :
In 1 week :
21 games won
4 games lost
Nothing more to add I think.
GL
A1eks
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I am still struggling with this build. I wind up with 4 marauders and 1-3 marines at exactly 6:40 in my opponent's natural. The rest of my troops are on the way. I find that, more often than not, I am up against a force of the same size or larger. I hit 50 food at 6:40 or 6:41 usually. What am I missing? Am I supposed to wait for backup? Am I still too slow?
Edit: I could be wrong here but it seems like I am not "poking" right. I tried taking out a unit or two and not committing until some reinforcements arrive; this seems to be working better.
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I got the impression that we move out at 6:40, where I normally have 6 marauders and 4 marines. Should we be arriving at the opponent's front door at 6:40 instead?
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On September 07 2011 04:55 A1eks wrote:
Dear all,
Apologizes to Master Adrenaline Seed. Now that I'm able to do the build in a correct way and able to expand if needed here are my results :
In 1 week :
21 games won
4 games lost
Nothing more to add I think.
GL
A1eks
I guess I had the same development as you have A1eks. But I'm beginning to stagnate, mostly because of trying to trust the build too much and it gets stale for me. It's win or lose the first push, maybe or maybe not have a good enough backup army depending on your opponents macro. More often than not, my games usually run into mid and even late game. In other words, they don't really end in the early game as often as I had expected. Meaning I need a build suited for that style of play.
@AdrenalineSeed: What do you think about the 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build?
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On July 23 2011 07:19 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
what should I do?
You have many good suggestions. but I think preceding all this the most important thing to start out with is a keyboard that has an A key that has minimal resistance.
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first of all, a big thanks for this great guide! i'm fairly new to sc2 and rts games in general and after a little getting used to the game i immediately started going by your guide and i really like it so far.
i also have a few questions:
1) in your replay you don't send out a scouting scv and you reach 50+ food at exactly 6:40, is this even possible when sending out a scouting scv (especially on 4-player maps)? without scouting i can replicate your BO in the given time, but with scouting (after first SD finishes) it doesn't seem to be possible, i usually reach 50+ food (~52) between 6:50 and 7:00.
2) i really like to wall up my ramp with 2 SDs and the first rax (+addon) to be safer against cheeses like 6pool etc. and to deny late (16+) scouting, but unfortunately on a lot of spawning positions this exposes the techlab of my rax at the front of my wall and thereby gives my opponent the opportunity to snipe it and massively delay stim, which is disastrous for the build. would it maybe be better to use a slightly different 3rax variant with reactor first and techlabs on the 2nd and 3rd rax? it is also possible to build the raxes 2 and 3 much earlier (around 16/17 and around 19-20) so that stim and the 2nd upgrade are still done at around 7:00. this isn't my own idea btw, i borrowed it from Kaeru's (high EU masters) Terran beginner guide that uses such a reactor-first 3rax variant. what are your thoughts on this?
3) concerning the 2nd upgrade: i think shells is favorable vs protoss and combat shields vs terran, but i'm not sure what to choose vs zerg.
4) how do i transition out of this build vs protoss if the stim push doesn't outright win the game? i build a CC during the push and an engineering bay, a factory (reactor), a starport (swap onto factory's reactor) and an additional (naked) rax, i then go for MMM (+vikings if P has colossi) and later add ghosts, but what do i do with my factory? should i just put a techlab on and make tanks if i have spare min/gas or aren't tanks worth it against protoss and i shouldn't produce from it at all (which would free up gas for sooner ghosts)?
that would be all, once again a big thank you for making this awesome guide!
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@cdd: My 2 cents...
1) I'm not as good as A. Seed is, but I have been able to reach 50+ food with scouting, but I scout after the first barracks. I haven't tried it your way, but I don't think the build is so lean on minerals that you couldn't pull it off with one less SCV.
2) I wall off too, but I've only had my tech lab sniped in maybe 1 game out of 100? I don't really see it as a big risk. In any case, this is not a perfect build for every occasion, but the important thing is that for lower levels, you can do very well if you execute it properly. On the games where you lose, try to figure out where you went wrong. For me, it's usually because I didn't scout something (cloaked banshee rush) or didn't react properly AFTER my initial push (ie, not bunkering up if Protoss is still on one base). It's a learning tool and not a be-all end-all. But I still open 100% of my games with this.
3) You're probably right, but you would have to delay starting shields, otherwise I don't think you can hit 50 supply at 6:40. There is barely enough resources to fit in shells as soon as the 2nd tech lab finishes.
4) The factory makes a good scout Or you can use it to build an add-on for a second starport if you suspect lots of collosi, or want a raven. I'd save the gas for ghosts, personally.
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On September 07 2011 08:17 Lazy8s wrote:
I am still struggling with this build. I wind up with 4 marauders and 1-3 marines at exactly 6:40 in my opponent's natural. The rest of my troops are on the way. I find that, more often than not, I am up against a force of the same size or larger. I hit 50 food at 6:40 or 6:41 usually. What am I missing? Am I supposed to wait for backup? Am I still too slow?
Edit: I could be wrong here but it seems like I am not "poking" right. I tried taking out a unit or two and not committing until some reinforcements arrive; this seems to be working better.
On September 07 2011 12:40 Tuplex wrote:
I got the impression that we move out at 6:40, where I normally have 6 marauders and 4 marines. Should we be arriving at the opponent's front door at 6:40 instead?
Don't push out until 6:40, you should arrive around 7:20 - 7:40.
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On September 08 2011 00:42 cdd wrote:
first of all, a big thanks for this great guide! i'm fairly new to sc2 and rts games in general and after a little getting used to the game i immediately started going by your guide and i really like it so far.
i also have a few questions:
1) in your replay you don't send out a scouting scv and you reach 50+ food at exactly 6:40, is this even possible when sending out a scouting scv (especially on 4-player maps)? without scouting i can replicate your BO in the given time, but with scouting (after first SD finishes) it doesn't seem to be possible, i usually reach 50+ food (~52) between 6:50 and 7:00.
Someone confirmed this is still possible within a few seconds in an earlier reply.
On September 08 2011 00:42 cdd wrote:2) i really like to wall up my ramp with 2 SDs and the first rax (+addon) to be safer against cheeses like 6pool etc. and to deny late (16+) scouting, but unfortunately on a lot of spawning positions this exposes the techlab of my rax at the front of my wall and thereby gives my opponent the opportunity to snipe it and massively delay stim, which is disastrous for the build. would it maybe be better to use a slightly different 3rax variant with reactor first and techlabs on the 2nd and 3rd rax? it is also possible to build the raxes 2 and 3 much earlier (around 16/17 and around 19-20) so that stim and the 2nd upgrade are still done at around 7:00. this isn't my own idea btw, i borrowed it from Kaeru's (high EU masters) Terran beginner guide that uses such a reactor-first 3rax variant. what are your thoughts on this?
Zerg can't really snipe it with anything except a bane bust. I suppose if you want to go reactor first you should only make 2 rax. I was experimenting and was able to reach 52 food (still marauder heavy) at 6:30 with a 2 rax build. Shells come out a bit late but still in time for the push.
On September 08 2011 00:42 cdd wrote:
3) concerning the 2nd upgrade: i think shells is favorable vs protoss and combat shields vs terran, but i'm not sure what to choose vs zerg.
Shells is the only thing that finishes in time.
On September 08 2011 00:42 cdd wrote:
4) how do i transition out of this build vs protoss if the stim push doesn't outright win the game? i build a CC during the push and an engineering bay, a factory (reactor), a starport (swap onto factory's reactor) and an additional (naked) rax, i then go for MMM (+vikings if P has colossi) and later add ghosts, but what do i do with my factory? should i just put a techlab on and make tanks if i have spare min/gas or aren't tanks worth it against protoss and i shouldn't produce from it at all (which would free up gas for sooner ghosts)?
Do anything you would like after the push, all that matters is that you successfully met all your goals up to that point. Don't try to make a solid ladder build out of it. Once you are finished with the training start working with more advanced builds.
Vs Toss however a +1 followup with reactor starport is always safest. Ghost is risky but can pay off huge.
On September 07 2011 21:56 KenDM wrote:
@AdrenalineSeed: What do you think about the 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build?
Vs Toss on close positions or open natural (Xel Naga for example) It is a great build. I put the 3rd bunker at my natural and scout hard for proxy pylons. If natural is safe, fast expand vs toss is best.
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Dear Adrenaline Seed, I'm really in a pickle right now. The 3Rax build really is the safest build out there, but for me it's not durable enough. I never make it out of the early game if I get hit hard enough, but with multiple bases I can put up a defense long enough to correct my mistakes. So I'm in this other thread where everybody sees the 3Rax build as an all in, and advises to do a 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build. So I'm split right now. They do say that pro's usually go for a fast expand and they even cut corners to get that second expand up. I'm sure I'll have a fall back when I'll try out the other builds, but it's a really attractive build.
Thread in question:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251694¤tpage=22#422
Just to make things clear: I'm not trying to start an unhealthy discussion or a war, I'm just confused and I need as much confirmation as I can get, mainly because I don't have mass amounts of time to game anymore.
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On September 08 2011 20:47 KenDM wrote:Dear Adrenaline Seed, I'm really in a pickle right now. The 3Rax build really is the safest build out there, but for me it's not durable enough. I never make it out of the early game if I get hit hard enough, but with multiple bases I can put up a defense long enough to correct my mistakes. So I'm in this other thread where everybody sees the 3Rax build as an all in, and advises to do a 2Rax 3Bunkers FE build. So I'm split right now. They do say that pro's usually go for a fast expand and they even cut corners to get that second expand up. I'm sure I'll have a fall back when I'll try out the other builds, but it's a really attractive build. Thread in question: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251694¤tpage=22#422Just to make things clear: I'm not trying to start an unhealthy discussion or a war, I'm just confused and I need as much confirmation as I can get, mainly because I don't have mass amounts of time to game anymore.
3 Racks is a terrible build for high level play. Diamond +
They call it an "All-In" because your are not getting any tech or upgrades and not expanding for the first 7 minutes. Anyone who hopes to win with a mid game strategy would never open like that.
There are a few modifications used by pros such as Marine King Prime, but mostly I would not recommend using it. 2Rax FE is good vs Toss yes. Don't try to make a solid high level play build out of 3 racks though.
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You were very close, this is really good overall. It was just 2 mistakes in unit production (kind of long mistakes too). You were not producing out of your rax from 4:00 - 4:20 and you had plenty of income to afford it. Same thing at 6:00 - 6:20.
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I main Zerg, but I'm switching to Terran and this looks like a great way to start. In a broad way, I'd say the best way to do something like this as a Zerg would be 11 pool 18 hatch into a Spanishiwa (Ice Fisher) style.
10 Extractor Trick
11 Spawning Pool
10 Overlord
@100% > Queen (1) + Zerglings (2) (4)
18 Hatchery (2)
18 Overlord (2)
20 Spine Crawler (1-5), as opponent's army size increases
40 (32 Drones) Extractor (1) (2) (3) (4)
As Gas allows:
@100 gas, Lair + Evolution chambers (1) (2)
With your initial set of zerglings, one goes to the watchtower, the other to the bottom of his ramp. Make sure you're scouting with the ramp ling every 30-60 seconds. If it dies, run your other ling up to the ramp immediately and produce another pair that you send to the watchtower.
Your initial overlord should be parked outside his base to scout for tech. You want to aim for the center of his base, as most folks won't hide their tech on the edges for fear of overlord spotting. A great way to make sure your ovie gets a look instead of getting shot down is to make a small attack with 10 or so lings. That'll keep the focus at the wall. You want to be in his base at about 35 food, so you might have to start your overlord moving from the edge of his base as early as 30 food.
CONSTANTLY produce queens until lair tech is out. You need ONE creep tumor connecting the main and natural expo. WIth transfuse, queens are amazing defensive units paired with spine crawlers. Make sure you have 1 queen in the main injecting, 1 at the natural injecting, and all the rest at the front with the spines (or, if you suspect a hellion / zergling runby) blocking your ramp. You can use evo chambers to help fill the gaps and give less surface area at the front of the spines for melee attackers.
I could go on about the transitions from Ice Fisher all day, but there's already plenty of replays and whatnot over at
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ice_Fisher
and
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017
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A lot of folks are missing the point here. This is training for LOW ranking players who need to learn how to properly do a build order and keep everything under control at once. It's not for winning all your games.
I would suggest that when you push at 6:40, the only thing you rally/send for reinforcement (unless you know you're about to win) is whatever units you were slightly behind on getting to 50/51 supply. After that 50/51 supply worth of units is heading to the opponent's base, build an expansion in your base and expand.
When you get to the opponent's base with your 50supply force, you need to check and see what he has. Save a scan for assaulting the ramp/scanning. If he already has an expansion down, burn it down with stim and contain if possible. If he pushes you with an even sized force or a bigger force that you can't defeat, go back home and macro up. You are now OUT OF THE REALM OF THIS PRACTICE BUILD. What you do next is up to you. All the standard rules of starcraft apply. Scout, counter, expand etc...
This build will win a lot of matches through silver and even against golds. It's like AS said, if you get to the base and he doesn't have the right counter, you can usually win right there. Otherwise you need to get ready for the macro game.
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As a bronze leaguer I really am enjoying this challenge. I won TONS of games via laddering with this and now I am playing gold leaguers. Even though I don't hit the timing at 6:40 all the time, it is helping dramatically.
Playing this has helped me get my internal timing for a build down, and I want to work on it to the Phase 2/3 parts to ramp up my game immensely.
P.S. Yabot works wonders with this coach build, especially if you quit if ANYTHING isn't producing for more than a few seconds. Helps a lot for the pattern to build too.
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Masters terran.
Despite many players' misgivings about the 3-rax build, it is actually a reasonable build to learn and execute at low-levels because it teaches solid macro. I've even thought about suggesting it to struggling players.
In addition, P2 and P3 are very very good exercises. I'm masters but I'm pretty sure that I won't be able to do them (at least not until I practice it). However, this is what pro-gamers do all the time, so they are a very valuable learning tool.
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I've been using the 3-rax with great success, but I'm starting to hit a wall with it. I'm top gold and playing pretty much all platinums, so I think I'm close to promotion, but now my 6:40 push is almost always held off, if not destroyed (happens pretty often, I am too stupid to know when not to attack apparently).
Based on some of the comments here, and the reduced effectiveness I am starting to see, I think it's time that I move on to a more advanced build, or builds. There are so many out there, I am lost on what to do. I'd appreciate some recommendations from high-level players. FWIW my APM is only about 50 on average, so I need something not too micro-intensive. I'm 40 and not getting any faster.
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On September 14 2011 13:29 Tuplex wrote:
I've been using the 3-rax with great success, but I'm starting to hit a wall with it. I'm top gold and playing pretty much all platinums, so I think I'm close to promotion, but now my 6:40 push is almost always held off, if not destroyed (happens pretty often, I am too stupid to know when not to attack apparently).
Based on some of the comments here, and the reduced effectiveness I am starting to see, I think it's time that I move on to a more advanced build, or builds. There are so many out there, I am lost on what to do. I'd appreciate some recommendations from high-level players. FWIW my APM is only about 50 on average, so I need something not too micro-intensive. I'm 40 and not getting any faster.
Not to spam. But 40 and still playing games. And not just any ordinary shooter, but Starcraft II, on Gold. I'm 23 and I've played games all my life (not RTS though), and I'm still stuck in Bronze league... ! I wish I could keep up like you!
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can you actually get into platinum by using only this build though?
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On September 15 2011 20:08 kaotikuk wrote:
can you actually get into platinum by using only this build though?
You can if you keep at it and if you keep looking for improvement in your build. But as soon as you hit that high league wall you will have to adjust and if like me you're not used to the mid and late game, you're gong to have a tough time. And it's more fun to try and play the mid/late game with more unit variation, upgrades etcetera
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Can definitely get to platinum. I started mid-silver, and currently high platinum, playing some diamonds now and then. Once you get to platinum though, the first push will almost never just win the game like it does in silver and gold, and the wins will rely more on your follow up decisions. Expand? Push again? Tech switch? All good stuff to learn.
Also, you will have much more difficulty vZ and vT with this, it's meant to be a good opener vP. It can work against zerg and terran, but there are certainly better choices. However, this build also isn't meant to just win you games, it's meant to teach you some discipline and better mechanics, hope everyone else is enjoying it as much as I am!
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I used 3rax to get from silver to plat when the game first came out. Then I switched to 111, which meant I started losing a lot, though that was not important since a month or so later I was in diamond.
The point of the story is that when you make big changes in your play in order to improve expect to get some losses, this is not one of those games (WOW) where your rewarded simply for playing the game, you must earn your experience.
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After 2 days of steady improvement, I realized that for the first time practice, just for the sake of practice, was fun! It's so awesome to actually see yourself improving! Thank you for this!
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On September 14 2011 13:29 Tuplex wrote:
I've been using the 3-rax with great success, but I'm starting to hit a wall with it. I'm top gold and playing pretty much all platinums, so I think I'm close to promotion, but now my 6:40 push is almost always held off, if not destroyed (happens pretty often, I am too stupid to know when not to attack apparently).
My advice would actually be to stick with the build. If you do as suggested, and expand as you're making the 6:40 push, you'll most likely see way better results. Also, you say yourself that you have a few flaws (such as not knowing when to back off), so if you try to actually improve on those aspects of your game, I think you will see way better results. And besides, learning when to attack is something we all need to do!
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We have to remember so many people have read this awesome build, so when the OP said that this will get you to Plat (or Gold cant remember) , at the time this guide was written not many knew about it and would've brought people to Plat level. But now, this is so popular so it may not bring you all the way to Plat, and also we remember Z and P have probably found a counter to this.
As for myself, this worked so so so great, but I stopped using it after about15~ times because I also found people who could hold off this push.
But as for mechanics, this is really good practice I must say
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I would just add that keep in mind, the goal is NOT to 'win'. Adrenaline Seed says explicitly that the goal is to practice your mechanic and not to ladder up and win. In the long run (with the skills you learn from this process), you will win more games than not working on your mechanic and trying to find builds that blind-win you the game. This build is not supposed to be a blind win.
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Hi all,
A little update on my experience. I reach top gold playing ag some plat but for few days the build executed correctly doesn't work anymore. Around 15 loss for 3 wins. At my level if the 1st push is reboot u can quit the game.
What is dissapointing to me is that now if i go this build in the mid game my opponent outmacro me. My knowledge of transition is too too bad but i played around 1500 games since one year.
Maybe i should now practice a build for each match up ? If anybody has an advice for me . I really need some motivation.
Cheers,
A1eks
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On September 20 2011 07:04 A1eks wrote:
Maybe i should now practice a build for each match up ?
Exactly. Keep 3 rax for TvP and start with TvT and TvZ. You will lose a lot of games switching builds, don't worry about it.
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Hey Seed!
Thanks for this method. I'm feeling more confident in my mechanics now that I can get closer to the benchmark.
However...here is a replay of me doing this to a bronze league friend. Granted, I had told him that I was going to attack him with bio after the 7 minute mark (his mechanics are even worse than mine so he would be crushed if he was worrying about scouting etc.)
But I feel if this is solid in the lower leagues, it should crush him, a bronze player, regardless. As you can see, he holds off my first attack. In a later game, he crushes the attack and wins outright even though I was sure I was outproducing him.
Is bronze the new gold? Am I doing something wrong? Or does this build rely on surprise?
Here is the replay: http://sc2replays.aaa.eu/s/ehq_4i
If Seed or any other poster who has tried this successfully can have a look, that'd be awesome.
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On September 20 2011 08:38 Autofire2 wrote:Hey Seed! Thanks for this method. I'm feeling more confident in my mechanics now that I can get closer to the benchmark. However...here is a replay of me doing this to a bronze league friend. Granted, I had told him that I was going to attack him with bio after the 7 minute mark (his mechanics are even worse than mine so he would be crushed if he was worrying about scouting etc.) But I feel if this is solid in the lower leagues, it should crush him, a bronze player, regardless. As you can see, he holds off my first attack. In a later game, he crushes the attack and wins outright even though I was sure I was outproducing him. Is bronze the new gold? Am I doing something wrong? Or does this build rely on surprise? Here is the replay: http://sc2replays.aaa.eu/s/ehq_4iIf Seed or any other poster who has tried this successfully can have a look, that'd be awesome.
Once again I say timing is key here. Your friend was doing terrible, your right, he was very far behind you. Had something like 40 food at 7:30 while you were standing outside his base.
You however moved out late, well after 6:40, then had a little party by the mineral patch, then another water cooler conversation outside his ramp, and then moved in about a minute later than normal after he had a chance to build up more food than you.
To top it off during the engagement you had 80% of your troops doing laps instead of firing their weapons. Watch in slow motion, you will be shocked.
Timing and stutter step (especially when it comes to ramps) is critical. All your units need to be firing except when they are reloading in which case they should be making more room for other units to run in and fire.
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Hey, thanks! But I'm honestly not sure how to send bio up a ramp (when I played before I would siege up and clear the area by the ramp before moving up). Any advice/threads you can link?
I supposed I was subconsciously waiting so that more of my reinforcements showed up...bad idea, I guess? Should I go straight to his ramp and then waltz up it ASAP?
Also, how was the build itself? I was never better than silver and this is one of my first few attempts after many, many months of inactivity...I felt I had gotten a little beefier with this method.
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On September 20 2011 09:28 Autofire2 wrote:
Hey, thanks! But I'm honestly not sure how to send bio up a ramp (when I played before I would siege up and clear the area by the ramp before moving up). Any advice/threads you can link?
I supposed I was subconsciously waiting so that more of my reinforcements showed up...bad idea, I guess? Should I go straight to his ramp and then waltz up it ASAP?
Also, how was the build itself? I was never better than silver and this is one of my first few attempts after many, many months of inactivity...I felt I had gotten a little beefier with this method.
I x8 to 6:40 but you had 50+ food so it seems you did real good!
First work on getting your units up that ramp as fast as possible which means moving out and no delays.
You should research stutter step and metronome on here though. Your units need to keep moving when in a tight space so that more can fire. Whenever you see units doing laps behind your firing units that is a very terrible thing and you will lose to armies half your size. The trick is to move while reloading, which allows you to do the same dps while your units are constantly moving. You see pros do it all the time, it is easy to learn hard to master. Start using it and you will get better, watch the pros to get a sense of timing. Stim vs Normal also feels a lot different.
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Thanks. Also, your thoughts on the new patch?
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On September 21 2011 04:59 Autofire2 wrote:
Thanks. Also, your thoughts on the new patch?
Biggest thought. What in the world I am going to do for the extra 5 seconds my racks is building.
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haha id like to offer my services to help out i am the lvl of the people who will need this program and i think i could be a big help seeing how my pvt is quite good
so add me to the list please
cLvzickoray.848
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On September 21 2011 06:17 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 04:59 Autofire2 wrote:
Thanks. Also, your thoughts on the new patch? Biggest thought. What in the world I am going to do for the extra 5 seconds my racks is building.
Yeah I just tried it. It feels...horrible. How can blizz introduce a change which so thoroughly messes up the smoothness of the ONLY standard opener terran has? That is to say, the 10supply 12rax 13ref 15OC.
So does this mean that the optimal time to move out is now 6:55? or is this timing attack now not workable at all?
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On September 21 2011 06:29 zickoray wrote:
haha id like to offer my services to help out i am the lvl of the people who will need this program and i think i could be a big help seeing how my pvt is quite good
so add me to the list please
cLvzickoray.848
Zick, I can play a few games at this hour or a couple hours earlier most nights. Feel like training with a silver terran? I haven't played against toss in ages. Specifically, I would like to find out if this build is viable against them, particularly if a 4gate is on the way.
Lemme know if thats cool and I'll add you. If you're diamond, shame on you for trying to hustle us lowly silvers
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On September 21 2011 07:08 Autofire2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 06:17 Adrenaline Seed wrote:On September 21 2011 04:59 Autofire2 wrote:
Thanks. Also, your thoughts on the new patch? Biggest thought. What in the world I am going to do for the extra 5 seconds my racks is building. Yeah I just tried it. It feels...horrible. How can blizz introduce a change which so thoroughly messes up the smoothness of the ONLY standard opener terran has? That is to say, the 10supply 12rax 13ref 15OC. So does this mean that the optimal time to move out is now 6:55? or is this timing attack now not workable at all?
Actually it doesn't fit with the gas first factory right at 100 gas after racks either. So it is an unhappy day for Terran. A 5 second wait that early in the game does not equate to only being 5 seconds behind in your build, so somehow things are going to need to be slightly readjusted.
I am certainly not scouting until after my racks starts so I can afford it as soon as possible.
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Let me know if you figure it out. Finally got back on the ladder today, and although it was a lot worse execution than against my friend (ladder nerves after many months away i guess) I stomped through sheer numbers in the end, taking out his expo and putting mine down. I got promoted to Gold hopefully i belong there or this'll be realllly frustrating...
But cheers Seed! I dedicate this victory to you.
PS. Please let me know as soon as you have the build timing reworked because I'm pumped to perfect it now....the benchmark REALLY helped my macro more than the vague "yeah, make more SCVs and dudes because your macro sucks" criticism us low level players usually get.
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I have yet to get home and try to figure out this build with the new barracks build time timing (and I was so happy to have perfected phase 2 last night!), but I'm only worried about how it would affect the timing of the OC. Obviously, when the second and third barracks finish up is going to be delayed, but when I do the build super crisply, I'm often at 52 or 53 food at 6:40, so I'm going to bet (hope) that it still won't be a problem to get to 50 food.
Regarding the OC timing though, before the patch, my 15th SCV was always finishing a few seconds before the barracks finished, so there were already a few seconds where my CC was idle. So now given that my barracks will take 5 seconds longer, I'm guessing there will be like 8 seconds where the CC is idle before I can start the OC.
So what I'm planning to do is build a 16th SCV and start my OC as soon as it's done. My barracks will finish when that 16th SCV is about halfway done, and I can move right along with my marine > tech lab > marauder.
When I hit the timings well, there aren't a lot of excess minerals, but I don't expect that it's so tight that delaying the OC/Mules will affect the build much.
But, I will definitely find out tonight.
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Thanks Xanythz. keep us posted? I'm really wondering this myself.
Also, to Seed or anyone else who knows: I'm getting a sense of the build TvP and TvT, but what about TvZ? Won't this let them drone like monsters and destroy me? Marauder heavy armies crumble to zerglings as it is...(EDIT) and aren't pure bio armies rubbish against zerg anyway? Or am I getting ahead of myself (I tried doing complex builds as silver and got knocked about pretty bad) and this will work fine through Platinum?
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I just got done playing around with this for a bit and the build is still definitely viable within the 6:40 second timeframe. Here is a link to a replay in which I hit 50 food, have stim done, and about 20 seconds left on concussive shell at 6:40.
http://www.mediafire.com/?s9dm8zo9h4e6aa8
The build definitely feels tighter than before. In the replay version, I built my second depot at the same time I started my OC. I tried other versions in which I built the second depot before and after my OC, but I like how everything lined up in this replay the best.
EDIT: In my original post, I said I build my second depot right after my OC. That actually wasn't the case and now I can't remember what happened in which version I tried. I still like this replay the best though out of the ones I tried. I edited the post to match what's in the replay.
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So I played around with the build a bit more and feel I have it pretty smoothed out. I am milliseconds late on an SCV or Marauder here and there, but feel really good doing the build. I said before that the build feels a lot tighter now that barracks take 65 seconds to build, so I am posting my exact build order with a new replay and some notes to maybe help others hit the timings. It would be great if A Seed or others could comment if I am off base here so I don't lead others down the wrong path.
Anyway, here is the exact BO.
+ Show Spoiler +10-Supply Depot(1)
12-Barracks(2)
13-Refinery(3)
16-Marine
17-Orbital Command(4)
17-Supply Depot
17-Tech Lab
20-Marauder (repeat)
20-Barracks
21-Stim (5)
24-Supply Depot
27-Barracks(6)
28-Supply Depot
28-Reactor
32-Supply Depot
35-Tech Lab
38-Double Marine (repeat)
38-Supply Depot
39-Marauder (repeat)
43-Concussive Shell
46-Supply Depot
Here is a link to the new replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?uu7u1ped619ltal
And here are some notes and hints on hitting all the timings.
Note 1
+ Show Spoiler +Rally your 9th SCV to where you want to build that 1st depot (should be close to your CC) to make sure he's there right when you have 100 minerals.
Note 2
+ Show Spoiler +I send my SCV around 125 minerals to make sure I start the barracks on time.
Note 3
+ Show Spoiler +I send my SCV around 60 minerals to make sure I start the refinery on time. I also queue up my 15th and 16th SCV so that I can focus on putting two more SCVs in gas right as the refinery finishes. Forgetting to put SCVs in gas will inevitably make your Stim late.
Note 4
+ Show Spoiler +Pay close attention to when the 16th SCV finishes; you need to start your OC and 2nd supply depot as soon as it does. I find that sending an SCV to where I am going to build that depot, but not actually building it, right before that 16th SCV finishes, allows me to start that 2nd depot right after the OC starts.
Note 5
+ Show Spoiler +Now that it takes 5 seconds longer for your barracks to finish, it's SUPER IMPORTANT to start Stim right when you get 100min/100 gas. In the replay, I start Stim at 3:50, which means that with a 170 second build time, it finishes right as I need to move out. There is like no room for error with Stim. (Note: I actually had the money for Stim at 3:49, so at least for me, I had 1 second of wiggle room).
Note 6
+ Show Spoiler +I queue my third marauder right before building my 3rd barracks to make sure there isn't a gap in Marauder production. I know queueing in general is bad, but I don't think there's really anything else to do with those minerals at this point.
Don't forget to rally SCVs back to minerals. Try to stay on top of your MULEs too. Money is a bit tight. All the other tips from the OP still apply.
I also updated the YABOT build order I had put on sc2builds.com. It can be found at http://www.sc2builds.com/build-info.aspx?id=2171 if that's helpful to anyone.
EDIT: In the original version of this post, I wrote that you start your first marine on 17. The marine really needs to start on 16, which brings your food count to 17. My mistake, and this is corrected in the BO above.
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Thanks a ton man. Very detailed post. I will try it out, and I hope ASeed confirms this is the way to roll.
My earlier question though: does this work against Zerg?
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Thank you Adrenaline Seed! I read this learning post a few months ago and only lightly adhered to its principles. Yesterday I took it upon myself to put a sticky note on my monitor with the build order and after 4 games (no losses!)
I was promoted!!!
I'm going to keep practicing my timing, works against all races, and I do believe a YABOT with time goals will improve even further.
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Great exercise for training. Most builds I find stop around 20 supply leaving me raking in minerals I can't spend. The length of this build has already seriously helped my discipline with macro and I just started training today. I'm still struggling to hit the 50 supply by 6:40. This build is crazy tight but I love how I can feel it pushing my abilities. The first time I did the build I was 30 seconds behind getting to 50 supply and felt I was at the edge of my capabilities. After a few times practicing I'm still behind by 10-15 seconds getting to 50 supply but I no longer feel so rushed and on the edge of collapse just trying to keep up with the build. A great exercise indeed. Just what I needed.
Don't know who's read the thread about Spending Quotient
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266019
It's basically a way of measuring macro using info from the score screen. If you do this build right it puts you in the upper 80's or lower 90's. That's Idra level macro for the first 7 minutes of the game.
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Thanks for looking into this Xanthyz. I approve. I have done some experimentation myself and found that with and without a 16th scv you can meet the 6:40 mark with 7 marauders and 5 marines. Exactly the same as original build.
I don't like the feel of the new rax build time though, it bothers me in all my ladder builds. Anyways I did some kicking around with this build and decided it should not be changed since it still meets the needs of the training program. I did however find an interesting alternative.
With this experimental build you replace 3 marauders with 5 marines by 6:40, however you get 12 marines and 6 marauders before 7 mins because of the production cycle timing. So a 7 minute push out is more optimal (also since upgrades are delayed). This is a huge DPS difference vs light units and could be more lethal for players a bit more comfortable with marine micro. I have no desire to use any 3rax vs high diamond/masters but if someone in gold or plat is interested in trying it out here it is.
I never said it was an easy build either
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13378
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Thanks A Seed. I realized after spending all night working out the timings for a 16th SCV before OC, that I didn't spend nearly as much time trying out the 16th SCV after OC. I'm glad to hear it doesn't affect the build either way, but feel like that has larger implications for any build that uses the "standard" OC opening, so it's something I'll play with in the future when I finally learn some new builds.
And I'm glad this isn't an easy build. Learning this build to near perfection has made me realize things that I had heard were "good" things and knew I should do them if I could, but didn't understand why they were good. Like I had heard that some pros put their starting SCVs on the far minerals to give them a slight edge. While I understood that having a slightly shorter return trip might give a few extra minerals, I never understood why it was important until I tried it and realized that doing it gave me just enough extra minerals to always have 50 to start my 8th SCV just before the 7th finished.
@kmeanster (and a general comment for this build): Working out this build for the new patch, I realized that I find it a lot easier to think of this build in terms of relative timings instead of supply count timing. For example, when putting down my second barracks, I try to put it down as soon as I get 150 minerals after starting my first marauder instead of basing it purely off 20 food. 20 food is just when that timing hits. Another example, I know to start concussive shells right when my second tech lab finishes, and it just so happens that's at 43 food. The reason I think that's easier is because it serves as sort of a mnemonic device to remember what I need to do next. It syncs what I need to do next with what I'm doing now. My suggestion, as you continue trying to hit the 6:40 mark, is to work out little reminders for when to start your next building/upgrade based on what you just did. Then use the build posted as kind of a benchmark. However, I'm no pro, so take from that what you will. But hopefully some of the things that helped me out will help you too.
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Cheers to both of you! Lot of great info here.
But can anyone answer my earlier question regarding zerg? As in, on Gold will this work against zerg opponents without letting them drone up superhard, especially given that marauders are weak to zerglings? Obviously if they're one basing I'm just going to sit in my base but other than that...
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Autofire2, I can't speak from experience here (yet), but based on the OP, I'm going to say yes, it will work.
How to use 3 Racks on Silver - Gold Ladder
Push at 6:40 with 50+ food.
Try not to use more than one Stim, make it count.
vs Zerg keep your Mauraders in front (this is good vs banes, lings, and crawlers)
vs Terran send one marine up ramp to check for siege/bunker or double bunker.
vs Protoss pre-stim up ramp then attack (this is careless in diamond play but should get most units past FF before they notice)
I guess even though Marauders are weak vs. lings, they will tank the damage from the lings while the marines deal the real damage.
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@Xanthyz: Thanks for taking the time to work it out and share! What community spirit.
One observation, something I picked off Day9, is that you don't need the Stim right when you're moving out. You basically need it only somewhere near his base. I sometimes move out before stim (playing by ear, more or less to have stim around mid-map or Xel'Naga towers if we meet halfway), but sometimes there are some units down my ramp, in which case I'd probably go back up and wait for stim or more units. Stim would be bad because it would take the 10 HP off al of my units, while only a portion of his units would be taking damage and possibly dying from my stim attack; on the other hand, merely waiting for more stuff could be good, then either filing down the ramp and fanning out (attack-move click at the appropriate distance behind the enemy units to get concave), or trying to split and flank them to make sure nothing survives, then going to his base and killing him with the rest. Preferably fast since he will know what's coming and could get lucky with base defences.
On September 22 2011 14:31 Autofire2 wrote:
Cheers to both of you! Lot of great info here.
But can anyone answer my earlier question regarding zerg? As in, on Gold will this work against zerg opponents without letting them drone up superhard, especially given that marauders are weak to zerglings? Obviously if they're one basing I'm just going to sit in my base but other than that...
The problem with bio against zerg, from a gold player's perspective, is that zerglings will pwn anything that doesn't kite them and especially marauders (except when you have concussive and a lot of marauders), while banelings will kill marines easily, as I suppose few gold Terrans can split effectively (hotkeying marines to several smaller groups before engagement could be a substitute to mouse-splitting them in the heat of action, although it would take a couple of seconds; but this is a useful skill to have). I suppose much depends on your kiting abilities and the use of stim. The key would be to learn to judge the numbers of the zerglings approximately vs the need to stim or not (or whether it will pay to stim all of your guys for a smaller group of zerglings to avoid your units dying but suffer a -10 HP on all of them). This would be an intuitive thing, taking time to develop and generally being an educated guess.
And I dread going out bio against zerg. I'm so used to hellion-thor in this matchup that it's going to be hard to abandon this in favour of a more demanding and less favouring build. But at least I will have fewer deaths against roach rush even if my TvZ win %% will likely take a hit.
@Adrenaline Seed:
If you don't mind, I'd have a couple of questions regarding this build since I'm about to commit to it for a while due to my inability to defend an early expo consistently (which sucks from the perspective of a former Warcraft 2 Battle.net Edition player used to "dualing", i.e. two-basing or two-halling from the very start). I've decided to pick the 7:00 build because I suspect a good marine count is more important than a good marauder count (except a 5:00 concussive push or something like that) and I'm pretty sure the 20 seconds of delay will be worth the gain.
So, firstly, how do you defend against early aggression, since I see you don't wall in and I suppose walling in could hurt the timings. There's a lot of early aggression going in gold, hence my question. I suppose anything can be defended, except the build will go somewhat messy, except I worry about the marine-only all-in. Those guys can have plenty of marines by even 5:00.
Secondly, depending on the situation, we may end up with a number of units that have suffered some damage, or even a lot of damage, but not died, in addition to stim damage (or from defending the base before stim finishes). One could just keep replacing the units but one could tech to medivacs. What would you suggest? Also, would you suggest trying to get cute with elevators (for newer players: using one or two medivacs to load units before a cliff and unload them after that cliff, for example to attack from behind) and mineral line harass while busting the front or should one, at the gold level (or silver, or bronze, or plat etc.) concentrate all his attention on not botching the frontal attack on the ramp?
Some info for bronze and maybe silver players about early pushing with pure bio (unsupported infantry). Someone from higher leages please confirm if this is useful and worth bothering:
Busting the front of his base: you can scan the ramp just before attacking to gain/improve your vision, which is especially useful if the opponent is a terran with some early siege tanks which this push should be able to defeat because those tanks will be low in number and their cost will harm his infantry production and upgrades, including probably no stim for him, in fact, if you strike quickly, he may even not have researched siege tech (and early siege tech means fewer tanks than if you research siege tech later). By the way, even when he does have tanks sieged up, it's likely better to pre-stim (first scan then stim, all from hotkeys, e.g. 5 for OC, S for scan, 1 for your infantry group, T for stim—million times quicker than clicking through all of it) than to wait for your own tanks, by which time he will have many more tanks, including siege tech, and you will have only a few in addition to wasting your infantry advantage. But if he somehow manages to have three tanks sieged on the cliff of his base and a decent marine count, which some people are capable of doing, then you'd better not try to bust it unless you really know what you're doing (unless you feel comfortable losing a couple of games to gain a sense of how many tanks you can bust with your typical amount of infantry while pushing, which is useful knowledge... but you'd better gain it in practice matches with your friends). Personally, I love busting sieged tanks (it probably scares the opponent when you do things like that) but I sometimes die when I neglect well-positioned enemy tanks while killing infantry. Scanning the ramp could be useful against Protoss too, especially with stalkers and especially considering the -1 vision up the ramp with the lastest patch that became effective yesterday. My personal trick: sometimes I order my infantry to move in the cliff/ramp corner (not the ramp itself) while scanning and stimming. A lower league opponent may be surprised by my not even bothering with the ramp, making him lose units before he gets an idea what to do (any melee units will have a longer distance to travel and less ability to surround, as opposed to blocking your way when his ranged units are outranging yours) and before my scan runs out (important), after which it's easier to push up the decimated ramp (especially if his units either die in large numbers or escape far away, leaving you free to kill the wall and/or any buildings neighbouring the ramp or cliff). Against Protoss you can kill sentries as priority targets in order to avoid force-fields. Forcefields are bad not because they block his ramp but much more so because they split your army in half (even a newbie Protoss can mess up a newbie Terran a great deal with even a poorly placed, semi-random FF). If you get split like that by an FF, you must "hug" the forcefield or multiple forcefields closely from both sides to minimise range differences between your units (those farther behind may be out of range) or use micro to delay engagement until forcefield runs out, which is doable. Just make sure your units aren't walking instead of firing back. Against Terran, you can scan-bust some bunker positions this way or quickly kill his wall to get into his base easily (especially considering that losing two depots will almost certainly get him supply-blocked, and killing the addon on his wall rax is well worth it, especially if it's a reactor or a working tech lab (see animation to know whether he's researching something, you could be lucky to prevent his own stim). Essential when pushing against a Protoss: kill his pylons as priority. Not only does this get him supply-blocked but you can shut down his production. Bronze or silver Protoss players are likely to have a single, not well positioned pylon, powering up some essential buildings, if only two gateways (which is already worth shutting at the beginning of a battle), at the same time. Or more than one photon cannon when they turtle. Against more than one photon cannon you just attack the pylon. Or even two pylons if there are two pylons (just make sure you're in range to kill the pylons). Against a single photon cannon it's your call (I think the pylon is still a better target). Against zerg, kill his overlords with marines whenever you get a chance (unless too many of his units are attack you or his drones are running away or all your marines have died and you need to kill a spire or something), as that hurts his supply a lot, forces him to use larvae on overlords, limits the numbers of lings or anything he can spawn even if he has a lot of larvae waiting. Against any race, if you're withdrawing but still have some seconds left (you shouldn't be withdrawing from a push just because you can't kill when he still can't hit you back), kill his supply before or while retreating (and remember to finish off any badly damaged buildings especially if they're important buildings and/or you don't see any supply buildings/ovvies close enough to you). Or kill some buildings that are required for teching up (I rarely see anybody purposefully killing supply in SC2 but it was done in Warcraft 3 and a lot of my pushes relied on ignoring the army while killing supply or tech buildings first). Remember to make your reinforcements. You can rally them to his base (preferably set the rallying point at some distance to avoid getting intercepted) or you can rally the units in your base to defend in case he's already on his way to your base (which happens) or decides to go and kill you or was going for an air or drop push (which happens), depending on your preference. But remember to keep producing while you're fighting. When you don't absolutely need to be microing, press/hold the rax hotkey and D or A (marauder and marine respectively) for a while to make sure you're producing. I've lost some games like an idiot because of not reinforcing (or creating a second army back in base), as silly as this sounds.
Sorry for the huge cluster of text. Hope it's useful to someone.
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On September 22 2011 14:31 Autofire2 wrote:
Cheers to both of you! Lot of great info here.
But can anyone answer my earlier question regarding zerg? As in, on Gold will this work against zerg opponents without letting them drone up superhard, especially given that marauders are weak to zerglings? Obviously if they're one basing I'm just going to sit in my base but other than that...
This is an example of a counter to the 3rax build. A quality TvZ build involves early pressure to fast tech.
On September 22 2011 20:29 NewbieOne wrote:
@Adrenaline Seed:
If you don't mind, I'd have a couple of questions regarding this build since I'm about to commit to it for a while due to my inability to defend an early expo consistently (which sucks from the perspective of a former Warcraft 2 Battle.net Edition player used to "dualing", i.e. two-basing or two-halling from the very start). I've decided to pick the 7:00 build because I suspect a good marine count is more important than a good marauder count (except a 5:00 concussive push or something like that) and I'm pretty sure the 20 seconds of delay will be worth the gain.
So, firstly, how do you defend against early aggression, since I see you don't wall in and I suppose walling in could hurt the timings. There's a lot of early aggression going in gold, hence my question. I suppose anything can be defended, except the build will go somewhat messy, except I worry about the marine-only all-in. Those guys can have plenty of marines by even 5:00.
Secondly, depending on the situation, we may end up with a number of units that have suffered some damage, or even a lot of damage, but not died, in addition to stim damage (or from defending the base before stim finishes). One could just keep replacing the units but one could tech to medivacs. What would you suggest? Also, would you suggest trying to get cute with elevators (for newer players: using one or two medivacs to load units before a cliff and unload them after that cliff, for example to attack from behind) and mineral line harass while busting the front or should one, at the gold level (or silver, or bronze, or plat etc.) concentrate all his attention on not botching the frontal attack on the ramp?
Let me know how it works out.
You should not have to worry about early pressure as your getting a lot of units as fast as possible. You need bunkers on your ramp when your going for fast tech, like cloaked banshee. Use ramp to your advantage, if they go marine all in pull all the way back to your CC and pull all your scvs in front of your army then attack, keep units coming out of racks attacking right away, use scv stop/attack micro to get the most out of their health. As soon as you know your ahead get scvs out of there.
You will find that if you try to tech to medivac and get enough energy to heal all your units it takes too long, giving your opponent plenty of time to expand and tech. The build is all about winning at the ramp, you need to do massive damage in your very first attack.
I will post up a replay of the 2rax expand TvP build as well next time I do it, many have asked about that. I am surprised more people don't complain about sentries, the most annoying counter to this build, the 2 rax is a great counter, deny expo and expand yourself.
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On September 22 2011 20:29 NewbieOne wrote:@Xanthyz: Thanks for taking the time to work it out and share! What community spirit. One observation, something I picked off Day9, is that you don't need the Stim right when you're moving out. You basically need it only somewhere near his base.
Very true. The reason I was stressing over making sure stim was done before I moved out at 6:40 is because the OP said stim should be done by 6:40 . So maybe in reality, it doesn't matter if stim is done right when you move out, but for this exercise, it is important imo.
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Loving the concept, and I'm definitely going to try some of this out myself.
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Wouldn't it be helpful to have a chat channel for getting help with phase 3? Or just discussion about this stuff in general.
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@Adrenaline Seed: Thanks.
I've written down the updated build:
9 SCV => Rally to depot location
10 Depot
14 Rax
14 Rax
15 Refinery
17 marine (continue making)
18 OC
18 marine (continue making)
19 Depot
19 Tech Lab @ Rax
19 Reactor @ Rax
(19 OC finishes, drop mule)
20 marauder
23 Depot
(24/26 Reactor finishes)
26 marauder (continue making)
29 Depot
29 Rax
32 Stim
35 Depot
41 Depot (pretty much keep making depots with the same SCV)
43 Tech Lab at Rax (just as it finishes)
51 Concussive
Look ok?
Edit: Not having great success with this build in practice, though it's probably due to my own problems. But it would be nice to make this build cheese-proof and develop a way of dealing with being scouted.
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On September 26 2011 04:01 NewbieOne wrote:
@Adrenaline Seed: Thanks.
I've written down the updated build:
9 SCV => Rally to depot location
10 Depot
14 Rax
14 Rax
15 Refinery
17 marine (continue making)
18 OC
18 marine (continue making)
19 Depot
19 Tech Lab @ Rax
19 Reactor @ Rax
(19 OC finishes, drop mule)
20 marauder
23 Depot
(24/26 Reactor finishes)
26 marauder (continue making)
29 Depot
29 Rax
32 Stim
35 Depot
41 Depot (pretty much keep making depots with the same SCV)
43 Tech Lab at Rax (just as it finishes)
51 Concussive
Look ok?
Edit: Not having great success with this build in practice, though it's probably due to my own problems. But it would be nice to make this build cheese-proof and develop a way of dealing with being scouted.
Looks pretty good. It should be marine/marine then OC.
As far as scouting goes with any 3 rax build. Once you are comfortable with the build you have two options.
Create a wall with 1 of the rax and your supply depots.
Build 1 or 2 of the Rax at a hidden location on the map, many pros do this, you can keep the build on time by having the scv out there and ready to build. If you want it to be less cheesy find a good spot near your natural expo that has little chance of being scouted.
Often people will expect a fast expand when they see 1 rax, or a 2 rax expand if they see 2.
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@A Seed, you can add my name to list of those willing to help.
Xanthyz.264 on the AM server
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On September 30 2011 12:55 Xanthyz wrote:
@A Seed, you can add my name to list of those willing to help.
Xanthyz.264 on the AM server
Cool, added. I have been adding the latest entries at the top.
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Hey ASeed,
1st: I accidentally stumbled upon this thread and holy crap, I can't believe I have been missing out on this!!!
This such a great idea and I can definitely see how it will improve my mechanics and my overall game play in Plat... So thxs for the post.
2nd: This is kinda off topic, but maybe you or Xanthyz can help me out here... Ever since the patch, my TvP isn't as consistent as it once was. I almost always opened up with 2rax (either tech lab 1st, then reactor) and while doing some poking I expand behind and transition into standard TvP.
Or 2rax with reactor first and fast stim, then expand behind it while doing some poking as well. (pre patch, I was able to transition into mid-game and win most of my TvP by getting MMMG or MMMG & Vikings)
However, after the patch and the Immo buff I have been getting absolutely pwned by 3 gate robo with a couple immo, stalkers and zealots attacking my base around 10-11 min. Even when I scout it ahead of time and build 2 bunkers the Immortals shred thru my bunkers like nothing and the 2 rax build doesn't feel like it can hold that aggression. Especially, if I open with 2rax (reac 1st), go do some poking and end up losing my units against fast robo (immo) Toss, it feels like I will auto lose (and I end up losing)!
So I don't know if you guys are facing the same problems against TvP but if you can help me out I would appreciate it. Or if you can post a link to a replay of you doing 2 rax opening against TvP now after the patch ASeed, that would help me out as well.
Thanks again for the help and the post
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On September 22 2011 09:08 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Thanks for looking into this Xanthyz. I approve. I have done some experimentation myself and found that with and without a 16th scv you can meet the 6:40 mark with 7 marauders and 5 marines. Exactly the same as original build. I don't like the feel of the new rax build time though, it bothers me in all my ladder builds. Anyways I did some kicking around with this build and decided it should not be changed since it still meets the needs of the training program. I did however find an interesting alternative. With this experimental build you replace 3 marauders with 5 marines by 6:40, however you get 12 marines and 6 marauders before 7 mins because of the production cycle timing. So a 7 minute push out is more optimal (also since upgrades are delayed). This is a huge DPS difference vs light units and could be more lethal for players a bit more comfortable with marine micro. I have no desire to use any 3rax vs high diamond/masters but if someone in gold or plat is interested in trying it out here it is. I never said it was an easy build either http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13378
First of all: great job, I really enjoy putting your guide into practice and it's still a good piece of work for me .
Regarding that experimental build: why don't you ever send out a scout? I don't believe that is viable at any league, even in Silver you might get cheesed. I tried it with a scout after 1st SD (as I usually do) and with one after the Refinery, but I seem to be severely lacking the minerals he would have brought home mining. Or mby I am just too bad...?
Your thoughts about it?
Oh, without scout I was able to perform it in 6:55 as well
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@seed,
Please add me on the list Gold terran player : AlekS #933 EU Server
Cheers
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On October 03 2011 14:44 EgySphynx wrote:So I don't know if you guys are facing the same problems against TvP but if you can help me out I would appreciate it. Or if you can post a link to a replay of you doing 2 rax opening against TvP now after the patch ASeed, that would help me out as well. Thanks again for the help and the post
I only 2rax on XelNaga. Fast Shells. I use my first marauder and my marines to push out to their natural, deal with any stalker zelot push on the way and scouting for proxy pylons with scvs. I get bunkers started right away at their natural denying expo and forcing them in their base.
They only have 3 options. DT, Colossus, Immortal Push. (Edit: oh yea warp prism one time killed me, got to spot it.) If they keep making stalkers then I assume immortal push. They need to build up more than 1 immortal, lots of zelots and stalkers to break if your reinforcing. The idea is to pull out and salvage right before they get enough to break you. I have had people GG when they come down ramp and I am gone
Is this the replay your looking for? It has not happened since patch but I can keep any eye out.
On October 04 2011 04:05 Wizard4k wrote:Regarding that experimental build: why don't you ever send out a scout? I don't believe that is viable at any league, even in Silver you might get cheesed. I tried it with a scout after 1st SD (as I usually do) and with one after the Refinery, but I seem to be severely lacking the minerals he would have brought home mining. Or mby I am just too bad...? Your thoughts about it? Oh, without scout I was able to perform it in 6:55 as well
Yea I didn't leave room for a scouting. Don't see much point, this is not a reactionary build, your only planning to do one thing no matter what your opponent does and you cross your fingers.
After your proficient at phase 3 I recommend starting to move into a more reactionary build.
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Yea I didn't leave room for a scouting. Don't see much point, this is not a reactionary build, your only planning to do one thing no matter what your opponent does and you cross your fingers.
I decided to incorporate scouting into the build, just to force that discipline on myself. I did a quick test with the updated (1.4) version by Xanthyz. If you pull an SCV to scout at 13 supply, you can basically keep the build order intact if you push Stim from 21 to 25. Yes, this messes with your Stim timing, but if you've already learned the build and don't want to screw around with it, it's a very simple change to enable scouting.
Revised Xanthyz timing for scouting is:
10-Supply Depot
12-Barracks
13-Refinery
13 >> pull SCV to scout
16-Marine
17-Orbital Command
17-Supply Depot
17-Tech Lab
20-Marauder (repeat)
20-Barracks
24-Supply Depot
25-Stim (pushed back from 21)
28-Barracks (pushed back from 27, although might be able to squeeze it earlier with practice)
28-Reactor
28-Supply Depot
etc...
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On October 04 2011 07:30 Adrenaline Seed wrote:I only 2rax on XelNaga. Fast Shells. I use my first marauder and my marines to push out to their natural, deal with any stalker zelot push on the way and scouting for proxy pylons with scvs. I get bunkers started right away at their natural denying expo and forcing them in their base. They only have 3 options. DT, Colossus, Immortal Push. (Edit: oh yea warp prism one time killed me, got to spot it.) If they keep making stalkers then I assume immortal push. They need to build up more than 1 immortal, lots of zelots and stalkers to break if your reinforcing. The idea is to pull out and salvage right before they get enough to break you. I have had people GG when they come down ramp and I am gone Is this the replay your looking for? It has not happened since patch but I can keep any eye out.
Ok I'll try that, and if you have a replay for that can you post the link please (even if it's pre patch). Thanks for responding back, I appreciate the help.
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On October 04 2011 10:42 jisora wrote:
I decided to incorporate scouting into the build, just to force that discipline on myself. I did a quick test with the updated (1.4) version by Xanthyz. If you pull an SCV to scout at 13 supply, you can basically keep the build order intact if you push Stim from 21 to 25. Yes, this messes with your Stim timing, but if you've already learned the build and don't want to screw around with it, it's a very simple change to enable scouting.
When I play on ladder, I use the SCV that's building my barracks to scout against Zerg and Protoss. Against Terran, I use the SCV that's building my first depot, because if I wait until after my barracks finishes, usually my opponent's barracks is just finishing as well and they'll have a marine out by the time I get there.
I don't think you need to change the build to incorporate scouting though. I just tried it, scouting in one with the SCV that built my rax and in another with the SCV that built my depot. The BO I posted works perfectly when I use my rax SCV (I can actually do better if I stop marauder production for a few seconds to build my 3rd rax). See replay below (I sent my SCV to the tower to pretend to scout).
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-235601.jpg)
When I use the SCV from my depot, I am behind a bit. I can still hit 50 food at 6:40, but stim was 6 seconds late. Personally, I don't think that's a very big deal. I probably won't even have my army out of my natural by then. It breaks the rules of the exercise (not having stim done at 6:40), but when taking the exercise to the ladder, I realize scouting is something you need to do, if only to find out where your opponent is.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-235602.jpg)
I don't know exactly what the pros do as far as scouting, but I always felt that using an SCV that just finished building something is better because then I don't have lost mining time for 2 SCVs. And as far as my experience goes (in Silver ), this works just fine.
If you're having a hard time hitting the 50 food/6:40 mark with the BO, post a replay and I'll try and see if I can offer any advice.
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I was doing it with scout after depot for a while, and when I tried after rax it was a whole lot smoother. I think after rax doesn't have much delay compared to not scouting at all, but after depot I can't constantly produce out of everything at times. Unfortunately, they have a marine out if you scout after rax, so it doesn't really work against Terran.
I've even seen pros not scout in TvT, it is a matchup where it isn't as necessary, and tbh I don't think you would ever get much useful information scouting, other than their spawn position. On four player maps, you could still scout after rax and turn around after you see where they spawn, and you can escape from the marine.
I think I'll scout after rax. I guess it might be useless TvT on a two player map, but there's only one of those in the mappool. So there's only a 1/30 chance of that each game.
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accelerated learning for mid/low level terran, drop mules, build mauraders
but seriously though sounds like a cool program
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On October 05 2011 07:12 BigPain wrote:accelerated learning for mid/low level terran, drop mules, build mauraders but seriously though sounds like a cool program
I am not sure whether to thank you or facepalm. Oh well.
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I ran across this about two weeks ago. I'm an upper Bronze player at present - and moving up as I get Phase #1 down on the ladder. Even when the first push doesn't end the game, this is doing wonders for improving my macro, not getting shaken while working the build order, and generally leaving me in a better place if the game goes into mid and late game. Thanks Adrenaline Seed and Xanthyz for both the initial build and program and the updates as the patches come.
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hey i'm interested for your help. i'm a high gold/low plat toss that wants to learn terran. i've been messing around lately and my plat terran buddy has been teaching me some stuff.
i have skype so we can talk and all it helps.
Warmdelights; 273
should i just bug you whenever your on or what?
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Hey I'm a silver Terran, this sounds like a really good idea so I would like to take part in it please.
My character details are Ice.370 on NA.
Cheers
Andrew
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Hey this looks like a great initiative to help raise the level of Terran players on teamliquid. I'm interested to know if there are any success stories so far? Has anyone started this at bronze/silver/gold level and now made it to high diamond or masters in a short period of time?
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Adrenaline, a while ago you mentioned a guide might be put together for protoss/zerg. Did this ever occur or can you suggest a build? I am pretty solid into gold with this build but I would like to try the other races as well. I tried zerg S1 and protoss S2, both times I would up #1 silver but I was way off from being gold. Doing this as terran has showed me just how bad I was at zerg/toss. Problem is, if I watch a pro replay and try to emulate I get schooled since pro builds really only work vs other pro builds. Thanks in advance either way.
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On October 12 2011 09:48 Lazy8s wrote:
Adrenaline, a while ago you mentioned a guide might be put together for protoss/zerg. Did this ever occur or can you suggest a build? I am pretty solid into gold with this build but I would like to try the other races as well. I tried zerg S1 and protoss S2, both times I would up #1 silver but I was way off from being gold. Doing this as terran has showed me just how bad I was at zerg/toss. Problem is, if I watch a pro replay and try to emulate I get schooled since pro builds really only work vs other pro builds. Thanks in advance either way.
I was expecting to get a replay submitted with a build from another race. I only play Terran.
The pro builds work great against non pro builds, you just don't know the branch for scouting and countering.
When you watch a replay your only getting a small part of the entire build. In order to learn the entire build you need to find a replay pack and single out all the games where they use the same build and note each branch. A guide is also helpful since every branch is explained in detail with replays.
For example this build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753
He calls them possibilities, I call them branches because when the build is complete the entire build looks just like a tree with your opening as the trunk.
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this build is aweomse, even after patch i can have 48supply at 6.40
but ye this build is in general abit countered by 3gate robo with immortal being chronod up fast as fuck.
But even if my first attack dies hard i can still manage to go on quite well, get ghosts up and get my expansion rolling pretty equal to the toss. But my question is.
Is there any version of doing this exact build but you get ghosts into the play? i heard it's a pretty good strat to do and seen it being done in tournaments but never seen any A to B on how to do it with ghosts and what the ultimate timeing is for it.
Edit, this build is my standard build and i will be moving to diamond league as soon as the new season starts, thanks
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Good build. Would love to see a more defensive FE version for flavor The macro practice it gives you is very good as it pushes your limits for production and vision.
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Is it still possible to get that 50 supply mark after the patch?
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On November 14 2011 04:05 VPFaZe wrote:
Is it still possible to get that 50 supply mark after the patch?
Two posts above you.
On October 13 2011 07:40 Granter wrote:
this build is aweomse, even after patch i can have 48supply at 6.40
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learn to stop building tanks when you see BL'd
and start building vikings
Also ravens PDD blocks all missle attacks... such as muta and curruptor for example
and especially PDD is wonderful VS stalkers
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On November 14 2011 07:10 Zergrusher wrote:
learn to stop building tanks when you see BL'd
and start building vikings
Also ravens PDD blocks all missle attacks... such as muta and curruptor for example
and especially PDD is wonderful VS stalkers
Wrong thread?
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nope, just using logic since tanks can't hit air and there just wasted rescources when theres BL'ds out on the field, when that supply and moeny should be for vikings
or if you do keep building tanks.... manually make then target the infestors
and searously the PDD is very useful. want to stop your tanks for being sniped? build a raven or 2 and put a PDD down to conver your marine tank push from the mutas.
and PDD's arre brutal in use VS stalkers and can help you win engagements with your MMMGV force
and since terrans are so much more ineral heavy then gas heavy what better way to pool that gas in then the usage of ravens? and they have so much versitility(which is the staple of the terran race)
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So i've been doing the build, only i feel like once i get to plat, and this build stops working, ill be back demoted because i've just been relying on the cheesy 3 rax. and aswell if they have an early siege tank, it kind of stops this early push.
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On November 15 2011 06:56 VPFaZe wrote:
So i've been doing the build, only i feel like once i get to plat, and this build stops working, ill be back demoted because i've just been relying on the cheesy 3 rax. and aswell if they have an early siege tank, it kind of stops this early push.
Well the point of this isn't to cheese your way to platinum, it's to practice your macro using a simple build that you can easily benchmark. Once the build isn't working for you anymore you switch to more standard builds and the idea is your macro skills will carry over.
If you're consistently meeting the supply benchmark then the exercise has done its job so go ahead and switch to more standard builds.
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On November 15 2011 07:58 MysteryHours wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 06:56 VPFaZe wrote:
So i've been doing the build, only i feel like once i get to plat, and this build stops working, ill be back demoted because i've just been relying on the cheesy 3 rax. and aswell if they have an early siege tank, it kind of stops this early push. Well the point of this isn't to cheese your way to platinum, it's to practice your macro using a simple build that you can easily benchmark. Once the build isn't working for you anymore you switch to more standard builds and the idea is your macro skills will carry over. If you're consistently meeting the supply benchmark then the exercise has done its job so go ahead and switch to more standard builds.
Exactly. It's easier to keep up with your macro (ie building units, not getting supply blocked, etc) when you're on one base compared to 2+ bases. Same with multitasking and unit control. It's all easier in smaller numbers. I'm pretty sure the program is aimed at developing these mechanics in a way so that it's not too overwhelming.
Trying to learn to macro up to three bases as a brand new player might be quite difficult because you don't know where to start. But with this cute little program, the player is given goals and directions that can easily be applied to 3+ base macro.
It's the same way I got out of Bronze as Zerg. 7 roach rush until I have it down pretty well and go from there.
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Thanks to this my TvT is seriously high diamond level now (I'm mid plat) Thanks so much! As a word of advice, most of my TvT game the three rax dose not really do any damage, so I immediately throw down a CC and stop making marauders, only marines. I also work towards medivacs (making the reactor on my factory for the starport). Once my starport has a reactor I throw down a tech lab and begin tank production just macroing on 2 base. I also drop once or twice and at my low level I roll over my opponent at about 100 food every game.
Thanks again man! :D
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So yeah, i've been doing this program and i understand the whole fundamental thing about trying to improve your macro and your knowledge of the game. Can someone who has done this before told me how long it took before they saw an improvement in their macro?
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I've been interested in this for a little while. I'm about mid-diamond so I don't really do the 3rax anymore but I'd like to practice reactor hellion/2rax(tvp or tvz)/111. Are you offering help for lower level players in pulling off these more common builds I mentioned while watching the minimap and scouting? If needed, I could also help out in phase 3. Foxkid.916
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I am so glad I stumbled across this thread!!!! I'm an ultra noob (just bought the game about three weeks ago) and this program is helping me tremendously!! I have Phase 1 down..working on Phase 2... Can't wait to get to phase 3 and really practice with someone!! I really want to impress a certain guy (who's obsessed with this game) so I can use all the help I can get!!!! :-)
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If you are having motivational problems and are in phase 1 or 2:
Play your phase 1/2 games against a medium or stronger AI opponent and crush them with your "stim timing". This will not really improve your learning process (as those AI guys shouldn't be able to stop your push), but you will be unlocking 'Custom Game' achievments after a certain amount of games.
However, this will increase your time per game to about 9 in-game minutes (which on the other hand shouldn't be a concern for you if you are lacking motivation to practice in the first place).
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Just a bump for good measure for low league terrans. Maybe we can make a similar type build for Protoss players or zerg players!
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On December 20 2011 08:25 TG Manny wrote:
Just a bump for good measure for low league terrans. Maybe we can make a similar type build for Protoss players or zerg players!
Yes, I think I might copy this thread, but change it for zerg related practice
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I'd like to use this 3 Rax build in my ladder games (bronze). I normally wall in out of concern for early cheese rushes, but I noticed that the replays provided don't bother doing so. Should I wall in, always, never, or sometimes? Why? It makes the build a lot harder to do when integrating the wall in (at least for me), because I am trying to get used to using multiple cameras.
Also, with Rax build times taking longer, does the build order provided change much? Does the 6:40 push become 7:00? Thanks.
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On January 28 2012 05:25 Lanello wrote:
I'd like to use this 3 Rax build in my ladder games (bronze). I normally wall in out of concern for early cheese rushes, but I noticed that the replays provided don't bother doing so. Should I wall in, always, never, or sometimes? Why? It makes the build a lot harder to do when integrating the wall in (at least for me), because I am trying to get used to using multiple cameras.
Also, with Rax build times taking longer, does the build order provided change much? Does the 6:40 push become 7:00? Thanks.
When I face Zergs, I do wall-in, though I don't know if it's ever necessary. I've never had anyone try to 6pool me (I now fear any Zerg who reads this and catches me on ladder). Against Terran and Protoss, I build things as close to my base as possible to maximize mining time. Regarding your second question, earlier in this thread I posted a revised BO to handle the "new" barracks build time.
Good luck!
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eh 3 rax with stim favors a counter all in and less of a macro game.
3 rax is also somewhat of a cheese build with addons that is. i think you should stick to 2 rax and things like ALWAYS being on the map in tvp for example or pure marines vs zerg so you learn to do drops and spreads and what not
tough to train a skill other then just do whatever you can that is dif then what you are doing now and its tough to train a skill like spreading vs banes or dropping multiple spots at once while attacking with a main army since not all games get to that point or allow it
#1 way to get better is ALWAYS get into macro games
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Thanks Xanthyz for your response, but also thanks for orange... for your words of wisdom as well.
Xanthyz, are your still available for help on step 3? I'd like to take you up on it if you are. I'd really also like to see replays that are updated for the current patch that show the marine at watch tower. The links to your replays aren't working anymore.
Bascially, IMHO, this is a awesome program that @seed has created, but a newbie such as I, could benefit from the project updated to current the patch.
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EPT
