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@Adrenaline Seed: Thanks.
I've written down the updated build:
9 SCV => Rally to depot location
10 Depot
14 Rax
14 Rax
15 Refinery
17 marine (continue making)
18 OC
18 marine (continue making)
19 Depot
19 Tech Lab @ Rax
19 Reactor @ Rax
(19 OC finishes, drop mule)
20 marauder
23 Depot
(24/26 Reactor finishes)
26 marauder (continue making)
29 Depot
29 Rax
32 Stim
35 Depot
41 Depot (pretty much keep making depots with the same SCV)
43 Tech Lab at Rax (just as it finishes)
51 Concussive
Look ok?
Edit: Not having great success with this build in practice, though it's probably due to my own problems. But it would be nice to make this build cheese-proof and develop a way of dealing with being scouted.
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On September 26 2011 04:01 NewbieOne wrote:
@Adrenaline Seed: Thanks.
I've written down the updated build:
9 SCV => Rally to depot location
10 Depot
14 Rax
14 Rax
15 Refinery
17 marine (continue making)
18 OC
18 marine (continue making)
19 Depot
19 Tech Lab @ Rax
19 Reactor @ Rax
(19 OC finishes, drop mule)
20 marauder
23 Depot
(24/26 Reactor finishes)
26 marauder (continue making)
29 Depot
29 Rax
32 Stim
35 Depot
41 Depot (pretty much keep making depots with the same SCV)
43 Tech Lab at Rax (just as it finishes)
51 Concussive
Look ok?
Edit: Not having great success with this build in practice, though it's probably due to my own problems. But it would be nice to make this build cheese-proof and develop a way of dealing with being scouted.
Looks pretty good. It should be marine/marine then OC.
As far as scouting goes with any 3 rax build. Once you are comfortable with the build you have two options.
Create a wall with 1 of the rax and your supply depots.
Build 1 or 2 of the Rax at a hidden location on the map, many pros do this, you can keep the build on time by having the scv out there and ready to build. If you want it to be less cheesy find a good spot near your natural expo that has little chance of being scouted.
Often people will expect a fast expand when they see 1 rax, or a 2 rax expand if they see 2.
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@A Seed, you can add my name to list of those willing to help.
Xanthyz.264 on the AM server
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On September 30 2011 12:55 Xanthyz wrote:
@A Seed, you can add my name to list of those willing to help.
Xanthyz.264 on the AM server
Cool, added. I have been adding the latest entries at the top.
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Hey ASeed,
1st: I accidentally stumbled upon this thread and holy crap, I can't believe I have been missing out on this!!!
This such a great idea and I can definitely see how it will improve my mechanics and my overall game play in Plat... So thxs for the post.
2nd: This is kinda off topic, but maybe you or Xanthyz can help me out here... Ever since the patch, my TvP isn't as consistent as it once was. I almost always opened up with 2rax (either tech lab 1st, then reactor) and while doing some poking I expand behind and transition into standard TvP.
Or 2rax with reactor first and fast stim, then expand behind it while doing some poking as well. (pre patch, I was able to transition into mid-game and win most of my TvP by getting MMMG or MMMG & Vikings)
However, after the patch and the Immo buff I have been getting absolutely pwned by 3 gate robo with a couple immo, stalkers and zealots attacking my base around 10-11 min. Even when I scout it ahead of time and build 2 bunkers the Immortals shred thru my bunkers like nothing and the 2 rax build doesn't feel like it can hold that aggression. Especially, if I open with 2rax (reac 1st), go do some poking and end up losing my units against fast robo (immo) Toss, it feels like I will auto lose (and I end up losing)!
So I don't know if you guys are facing the same problems against TvP but if you can help me out I would appreciate it. Or if you can post a link to a replay of you doing 2 rax opening against TvP now after the patch ASeed, that would help me out as well.
Thanks again for the help and the post 
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On September 22 2011 09:08 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Thanks for looking into this Xanthyz. I approve. I have done some experimentation myself and found that with and without a 16th scv you can meet the 6:40 mark with 7 marauders and 5 marines. Exactly the same as original build. I don't like the feel of the new rax build time though, it bothers me in all my ladder builds. Anyways I did some kicking around with this build and decided it should not be changed since it still meets the needs of the training program. I did however find an interesting alternative. With this experimental build you replace 3 marauders with 5 marines by 6:40, however you get 12 marines and 6 marauders before 7 mins because of the production cycle timing. So a 7 minute push out is more optimal (also since upgrades are delayed). This is a huge DPS difference vs light units and could be more lethal for players a bit more comfortable with marine micro. I have no desire to use any 3rax vs high diamond/masters but if someone in gold or plat is interested in trying it out here it is. I never said it was an easy build either http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/13378
First of all: great job, I really enjoy putting your guide into practice and it's still a good piece of work for me .
Regarding that experimental build: why don't you ever send out a scout? I don't believe that is viable at any league, even in Silver you might get cheesed. I tried it with a scout after 1st SD (as I usually do) and with one after the Refinery, but I seem to be severely lacking the minerals he would have brought home mining. Or mby I am just too bad...?
Your thoughts about it?
Oh, without scout I was able to perform it in 6:55 as well
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@seed,
Please add me on the list Gold terran player : AlekS #933 EU Server
Cheers
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On October 03 2011 14:44 EgySphynx wrote:So I don't know if you guys are facing the same problems against TvP but if you can help me out I would appreciate it. Or if you can post a link to a replay of you doing 2 rax opening against TvP now after the patch ASeed, that would help me out as well. Thanks again for the help and the post
I only 2rax on XelNaga. Fast Shells. I use my first marauder and my marines to push out to their natural, deal with any stalker zelot push on the way and scouting for proxy pylons with scvs. I get bunkers started right away at their natural denying expo and forcing them in their base.
They only have 3 options. DT, Colossus, Immortal Push. (Edit: oh yea warp prism one time killed me, got to spot it.) If they keep making stalkers then I assume immortal push. They need to build up more than 1 immortal, lots of zelots and stalkers to break if your reinforcing. The idea is to pull out and salvage right before they get enough to break you. I have had people GG when they come down ramp and I am gone 
Is this the replay your looking for? It has not happened since patch but I can keep any eye out.
On October 04 2011 04:05 Wizard4k wrote:Regarding that experimental build: why don't you ever send out a scout? I don't believe that is viable at any league, even in Silver you might get cheesed. I tried it with a scout after 1st SD (as I usually do) and with one after the Refinery, but I seem to be severely lacking the minerals he would have brought home mining. Or mby I am just too bad...? Your thoughts about it? Oh, without scout I was able to perform it in 6:55 as well
Yea I didn't leave room for a scouting. Don't see much point, this is not a reactionary build, your only planning to do one thing no matter what your opponent does and you cross your fingers.
After your proficient at phase 3 I recommend starting to move into a more reactionary build.
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Yea I didn't leave room for a scouting. Don't see much point, this is not a reactionary build, your only planning to do one thing no matter what your opponent does and you cross your fingers.
I decided to incorporate scouting into the build, just to force that discipline on myself. I did a quick test with the updated (1.4) version by Xanthyz. If you pull an SCV to scout at 13 supply, you can basically keep the build order intact if you push Stim from 21 to 25. Yes, this messes with your Stim timing, but if you've already learned the build and don't want to screw around with it, it's a very simple change to enable scouting.
Revised Xanthyz timing for scouting is:
10-Supply Depot
12-Barracks
13-Refinery
13 >> pull SCV to scout
16-Marine
17-Orbital Command
17-Supply Depot
17-Tech Lab
20-Marauder (repeat)
20-Barracks
24-Supply Depot
25-Stim (pushed back from 21)
28-Barracks (pushed back from 27, although might be able to squeeze it earlier with practice)
28-Reactor
28-Supply Depot
etc...
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On October 04 2011 07:30 Adrenaline Seed wrote:I only 2rax on XelNaga. Fast Shells. I use my first marauder and my marines to push out to their natural, deal with any stalker zelot push on the way and scouting for proxy pylons with scvs. I get bunkers started right away at their natural denying expo and forcing them in their base. They only have 3 options. DT, Colossus, Immortal Push. (Edit: oh yea warp prism one time killed me, got to spot it.) If they keep making stalkers then I assume immortal push. They need to build up more than 1 immortal, lots of zelots and stalkers to break if your reinforcing. The idea is to pull out and salvage right before they get enough to break you. I have had people GG when they come down ramp and I am gone Is this the replay your looking for? It has not happened since patch but I can keep any eye out.
Ok I'll try that, and if you have a replay for that can you post the link please (even if it's pre patch). Thanks for responding back, I appreciate the help.
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On October 04 2011 10:42 jisora wrote:
I decided to incorporate scouting into the build, just to force that discipline on myself. I did a quick test with the updated (1.4) version by Xanthyz. If you pull an SCV to scout at 13 supply, you can basically keep the build order intact if you push Stim from 21 to 25. Yes, this messes with your Stim timing, but if you've already learned the build and don't want to screw around with it, it's a very simple change to enable scouting.
When I play on ladder, I use the SCV that's building my barracks to scout against Zerg and Protoss. Against Terran, I use the SCV that's building my first depot, because if I wait until after my barracks finishes, usually my opponent's barracks is just finishing as well and they'll have a marine out by the time I get there.
I don't think you need to change the build to incorporate scouting though. I just tried it, scouting in one with the SCV that built my rax and in another with the SCV that built my depot. The BO I posted works perfectly when I use my rax SCV (I can actually do better if I stop marauder production for a few seconds to build my 3rd rax). See replay below (I sent my SCV to the tower to pretend to scout).
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-235601.jpg)
When I use the SCV from my depot, I am behind a bit. I can still hit 50 food at 6:40, but stim was 6 seconds late. Personally, I don't think that's a very big deal. I probably won't even have my army out of my natural by then. It breaks the rules of the exercise (not having stim done at 6:40), but when taking the exercise to the ladder, I realize scouting is something you need to do, if only to find out where your opponent is.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-235602.jpg)
I don't know exactly what the pros do as far as scouting, but I always felt that using an SCV that just finished building something is better because then I don't have lost mining time for 2 SCVs. And as far as my experience goes (in Silver ), this works just fine.
If you're having a hard time hitting the 50 food/6:40 mark with the BO, post a replay and I'll try and see if I can offer any advice.
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I was doing it with scout after depot for a while, and when I tried after rax it was a whole lot smoother. I think after rax doesn't have much delay compared to not scouting at all, but after depot I can't constantly produce out of everything at times. Unfortunately, they have a marine out if you scout after rax, so it doesn't really work against Terran.
I've even seen pros not scout in TvT, it is a matchup where it isn't as necessary, and tbh I don't think you would ever get much useful information scouting, other than their spawn position. On four player maps, you could still scout after rax and turn around after you see where they spawn, and you can escape from the marine.
I think I'll scout after rax. I guess it might be useless TvT on a two player map, but there's only one of those in the mappool. So there's only a 1/30 chance of that each game.
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accelerated learning for mid/low level terran, drop mules, build mauraders
but seriously though sounds like a cool program
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On October 05 2011 07:12 BigPain wrote:accelerated learning for mid/low level terran, drop mules, build mauraders but seriously though sounds like a cool program
I am not sure whether to thank you or facepalm. Oh well.
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I ran across this about two weeks ago. I'm an upper Bronze player at present - and moving up as I get Phase #1 down on the ladder. Even when the first push doesn't end the game, this is doing wonders for improving my macro, not getting shaken while working the build order, and generally leaving me in a better place if the game goes into mid and late game. Thanks Adrenaline Seed and Xanthyz for both the initial build and program and the updates as the patches come.
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hey i'm interested for your help. i'm a high gold/low plat toss that wants to learn terran. i've been messing around lately and my plat terran buddy has been teaching me some stuff.
i have skype so we can talk and all it helps.
Warmdelights; 273
should i just bug you whenever your on or what?
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Hey I'm a silver Terran, this sounds like a really good idea so I would like to take part in it please.
My character details are Ice.370 on NA.
Cheers
Andrew
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Hey this looks like a great initiative to help raise the level of Terran players on teamliquid. I'm interested to know if there are any success stories so far? Has anyone started this at bronze/silver/gold level and now made it to high diamond or masters in a short period of time?
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Adrenaline, a while ago you mentioned a guide might be put together for protoss/zerg. Did this ever occur or can you suggest a build? I am pretty solid into gold with this build but I would like to try the other races as well. I tried zerg S1 and protoss S2, both times I would up #1 silver but I was way off from being gold. Doing this as terran has showed me just how bad I was at zerg/toss. Problem is, if I watch a pro replay and try to emulate I get schooled since pro builds really only work vs other pro builds. Thanks in advance either way.
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On October 12 2011 09:48 Lazy8s wrote:
Adrenaline, a while ago you mentioned a guide might be put together for protoss/zerg. Did this ever occur or can you suggest a build? I am pretty solid into gold with this build but I would like to try the other races as well. I tried zerg S1 and protoss S2, both times I would up #1 silver but I was way off from being gold. Doing this as terran has showed me just how bad I was at zerg/toss. Problem is, if I watch a pro replay and try to emulate I get schooled since pro builds really only work vs other pro builds. Thanks in advance either way.
I was expecting to get a replay submitted with a build from another race. I only play Terran.
The pro builds work great against non pro builds, you just don't know the branch for scouting and countering.
When you watch a replay your only getting a small part of the entire build. In order to learn the entire build you need to find a replay pack and single out all the games where they use the same build and note each branch. A guide is also helpful since every branch is explained in detail with replays.
For example this build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753
He calls them possibilities, I call them branches because when the build is complete the entire build looks just like a tree with your opening as the trunk.
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EPT
